Episode 003 – Laura Muir

0:15 Welcome to Unspun, unraveling the threads of cult recovery, one thread at a time. I’m Alisa. And I’m Jaya.

0:22 And we are two friends and fellow cult survivors creating the resource we wish we’d had when we were leaving our cult.

0:29 This is a safe, warm, and welcoming space for those rebuilding their lives after leaving cults or high-control groups.

0:35 It’s a serious topic treated with the levity and humor needed to heal and thrive.

0:40 We will be discussing sensitive subjects, so please prioritize your well-being while listening.

0:46 Now, let’s get started. Pull up a seat and let’s start unraveling the threads of recovery together.

0:57 Welcome to Unspun. This podcast exists because so many people carry untold stories about growing up in, joining, leaving, or questioning cults.

1:07 We share honest conversations with people who have untangled themselves from restrictive belief systems, harmful communities, and environments that once shaped their identity.

1:25 Our purpose is to create a living resource, a place where people can come for understanding, validation, and pathways to support.

1:30 Whether you’re newly questioning, recently out, supporting someone you love, or years into rebuilding your life, this space is for you.

1:39 We aim to reduce shame on a lived experience and remind you that you are not alone.

1:46 So, tonight I’m here solo. I’ll just introduce you to Laura, who is tonight’s guest. Laura was recruited into Shincheonji, a Korean Christian cult in Auckland at the age of 27 and was a member for 5 years, giving up her job, savings, and distancing herself from friends and family.

2:03 She has been out for over 5 years now and has slowly rebuilt her life, rediscovering who she is—from running a marathon to taking hip hop classes, dipping her toes into the world of dating apps, traveling, and moving back to her hometown of Christchurch.

2:23 She has spoken out about her experience over the past few years in the hope that others can avoid being recruited and so current members also know there is life after leaving. It’s really amazing to have you here, Laura, and thanks for coming along.

2:41 Thanks very much for having me.

2:43 You’re welcome. First up, I was wondering if you could tell us just a little bit about you now.

2:48 Sure. Um, so I’m living in Christchurch at the moment. I live in Christchurch with my sister. We have a house together. I work in HR and I spend my time reading, going for walks, going to the gym, and dance classes. I like getting into crafts. I just like to do a lot of different things with my time.

3:15 Yeah, for sure. Um, what were you looking for in your life when you first encountered the group, and what did they offer that made you feel like it was the right place?

3:24 Well, it was a very gradual process and very deceptive recruitment to begin with. So, I didn’t know exactly that I was getting into anything. But in my life at that time, I was a Christian attending church and I wasn’t very satisfied in my faith.

3:42 I was very anxious about my status as a Christian, not feeling like I knew what God’s will was. And so I couldn’t do it cuz I didn’t know what it was. And I wasn’t really happy with the community at my church; I felt like it was quite superficial and I just felt very distant from it all and was really struggling, basically.

4:03 And I found it hard to talk about this with other people cuz they all seemed so into it. So yeah.

4:13 And it was at that time when I met this very lovely girl who was new to the country and to my church, and she befriended me and I started doing a Bible study with her and her flatmate.

4:27 Ultimately ended up leading me to Shincheonji. Long story with that.

4:32 That’s interesting though cuz they call it the “cuckoo cult,” and I guess that’s part of what happened in a way.

4:40 I’ve never heard that!

4:41 Haven’t you? How exciting. I’ll explain it if you like. I guess what I heard was that they would go to other churches and befriend members of the other church and then kind of pull them out into Shincheonji.

4:57 Yes, that’s exactly what they do. Yeah, that’s what they did to me. And that makes them the cuckoo cult. Okay, yeah, cuz that’s how cuckoo birds operate, right?

5:07 I didn’t know that. Add that to my vocabulary. Interesting.

5:12 Yeah. So I guess what did they offer you that made it feel like the right place?

5:17 So in the Bible study initially, and with this girl that I met at church, she felt very genuine and I was able to talk with her about things. She related to me about all of my struggles that I had with Christianity.

5:37 And then when we joined a bigger group, which happened only about a month after I’d started doing Bible studies with just her and her flatmate, there was only six of us who were learning together and we just formed a very close bond. It just felt like I had that community that I’d been missing.

5:55 And they also in their teachings, they were very certain about everything. They were not wishy-washy at all. And it felt like I was getting what I needed, which was that I was going to learn exactly what God’s will was.

6:08 Yeah, I was learning the Bible in a way I’d never learned it before. It really scratched an itch that I had and made me feel like I was on the right path.

6:21 Yeah, that makes sense. Would you be able to describe a typical day inside the group and how its rules or teachings influenced your thoughts and actions?

6:33 Yes. So I mean our days varied a lot, but maybe a typical day… I was a teacher, so most of my days would revolve around teaching students. I was also a full-time worker, meaning that I had given up my worldly job to be a worker for Shincheonji without pay, of course.

6:49 So we had a morning meeting at 9:00 a.m. Sometimes we would have meetings before that. The 9:00 a.m. meeting was like a video call with our tribe leader in Korea to give us “mindset.” He called it mindset training; it was called Daily Bread.

7:09 Anyway, and then after that, we’d have meetings to make our plans for the day for evangelism. If we had lessons with students, we’d be meeting with everyone that was attending and make our plans—basically, what were we going to teach them? Or if someone was going to meet a “fruit” or a new recruit, what they would talk about and how they would progress them towards the goal of making them a member. It was all very planned, very strategic.

7:39 And yeah, then we would go out and do all of these meetings. As a teacher, I would have just meeting after meeting with my one-on-one students during the day.

7:52 And then in the evenings, I would be preparing for and then taking part in our group classes, which we would have every evening. And those would go from about 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., including socializing time before and after.

8:06 And then we would have meetings after that again to discuss how the class went and what we’ll do next time. And then in between all of that, if you had any spare time, you have to evangelize, study for tests, or prepare for your lessons.

8:22 Basically, you shouldn’t have any spare time, or you feel guilty if you had some that you weren’t using on Shincheonji-related things. There was plenty to do that you could fill your entire day, usually until like 1 or 2 a.m.

8:38 Doesn’t sound like you got a lot of sleep.

8:40 No. So, very hard to question anything. You’re just trying to get through the day. You’re just surviving, really. We also didn’t eat well cuz we didn’t have a lot of time or a lot of money.

8:56 The way that it influenced me… I felt stressed constantly, but I also felt full of purpose because I felt that what I was doing was meaningful. I really enjoyed teaching, but at the same time, you’re never good enough. If anyone didn’t believe or they fell away, then it falls on you as the teacher, right?

9:15 That was really difficult. You can never feel like you’ve reached the pinnacle. You’re always striving. And you’re never good enough. So that was very difficult.

9:30 And so that kind of influenced how you felt about yourself, like you were never reaching the top or you were never good enough.

9:39 Yeah. And I mean, you can’t have a positive self-image cuz that’s “arrogant.” So you always have to be humble, and even if you’re doing very well, you have to say, “Oh, yes, but I could do better.”

9:53 What was the specific moment, the turning point that made you realize something was wrong and planted the seed of doubt in your mind?

10:04 For me, during 2020, Shincheonji just stopped working altogether. Because of that, I had time to sleep and eat well and even just do normal human things which I hadn’t done in years. I also had my own bedroom, which I hadn’t had since I joined.

10:28 With this extra time and space, I noticed more things. I noticed inconsistencies with the leader Man-hee Lee’s teachings. He would say one thing and then he’d say something else later on, and I would just be like, “Wait a second, that doesn’t make any sense.”

10:43 And it wasn’t like I planned to leave the group or anything, but I was just noticing and I would quietly ask other people what they thought about that. And yeah, I suppose laying the foundation. Those would have been my first doubts, but I wouldn’t have called them that really—more like ponderings or wonderings.

11:00 Just thinking for myself just a little bit. Cuz you got to eat and have some sleep. Those are powerful things.

11:08 They are. And it’s often a powerful way of controlling people. Definitely.

11:16 Can you walk us through the actual process of leaving? Was it a planned departure or a spontaneous escape? And who, if anyone, did you reach out to first?

11:31 So, it was kind of planned, but it also happened very quickly. My friend who had been a worker in New Zealand but had moved back to South Africa, she reached out to me to say she was planning to leave and that she didn’t believe in God anymore.

11:54 This was a complete shock to me. But after initially shutting it all down and thinking, “That would just never be me. I would never, no matter what, I’d never leave,” about one day later I was like, “Well, actually, I’ve never questioned the Bible.”

12:15 I guess I felt like I had questioned Shincheonji, but I hadn’t questioned the Bible which Shincheonji was based on. And I thought, well, I’ve lived my whole life basing it around this book but I’ve never really interrogated this book, and I feel like I need to.

12:31 So, I got out a bunch of books from the library and listened to some podcasts and watched some YouTube videos, and took about 3 days. Then I was like, “Oh, I know I don’t believe.”

12:46 It was the first time I had looked at it with a genuinely open mind, willing to accept whatever I found. So I decided that I just can’t be in Shincheonji and not believe, even if it means I know everyone’s going to cut me off.

13:06 I decided that I was going to do it in the right way, even though I could have just left, but I wanted to show that I tried because that was really important. I thought, at least maybe they’ll think about it if I show that I tried. They won’t be able to discount it quite as easily.

13:24 So, I went and asked them questions—the leader at the time, and then we also had another leader in Korea—and I met with both of them, and they couldn’t answer my questions. I met with them multiple times, and I just could see how easily the whole thing fell apart. I was like, “Well, this is helpful actually because the smallest poke at the foundations and it actually doesn’t stand up.” It starts crumbling.

13:51 So I felt more certain than ever that it was the right decision to leave. And I had reached out to a friend of mine earlier that year. I initially cut her off after joining Shincheonji, but I had reached out to her during my questioning thinking like, “Oh, was that actually the right decision? If you want people to join this group, you can’t just cut them off cuz they’re not going to think it’s a good group.”

14:22 So, I had reached out to her, and then now that I wanted to leave, I had a person—because actually I didn’t have anyone besides her outside of the group in Auckland. She offered that I could stay at her house if I needed to, which I did because I had nowhere to go.

14:44 I did do that cuz I lived with members, and it was a lot to have to figure out, moving to a random person’s house. I was so grateful to have a place to go.

15:00 I slowly moved things from my house because I didn’t want them to take all my books off me. I snuck them over to her house just quietly so they couldn’t take them. After 3 weeks after I had initially decided to leave, I left. It was quite fast in many ways.

15:24 Very fast, but also not fast enough because once I decided to leave it was really intolerable to be there and I couldn’t pretend that I believed. And then the members… as soon as they know that I’m doubting, they’re watching me and reporting on everything that I say and do, and that is just a terrible feeling. So I wanted to get out of there.

15:46 So it’s quite a culture of reporting on each other. Is that right?

15:51 Yeah. If you’re doing anything that doesn’t meet their expectations—basically if it seems like you’re causing doubts in other people or you’re doubting yourself—then yeah, you would get reported on. It’s encouraged; they’ll label it as helping your brothers and sisters, you know, “If they need some help then you need to tell someone so they can get some help.”

16:16 But of course, it’s spying and it’s reporting, and it means that you never feel like you can actually say how you truly feel.

16:27 In those first few weeks or months on the outside, what was the most disorienting or surprising thing you had to confront about the real world?

16:38 I had been recruited as an adult, so it wasn’t that I didn’t know what the world was like. But I do remember I went out for dinner with my friend who I was staying with—it was her birthday just like two days after I’d left. We went out to celebrate her birthday with her, her husband, and two of their friends.

17:04 I felt so overwhelmed just going to this dinner and listening to them talking. I didn’t know what to talk about. I didn’t know what to order. I just felt like I didn’t know how to be a normal human being. I was just panicking, basically, and I was very surprised because I thought it would be easy just to go back to normal. I knew how to be a person in the world, I had been one, but it was harder than I thought.

17:27 I just remember that moment of just floundering in the world. Mostly socially, because I just felt I had this massive thing that happened to me that I was deeply ashamed of and didn’t want to talk about, but then what *could* I talk about? I had nothing, cuz that was my whole life for the previous 5 years.

17:54 Like the more things that I did, the more things I had to talk about, and so it became easier over time. Then I became more comfortable with my cult experience, that I wasn’t ashamed of it—which is also why I’m here. I’m obviously not ashamed of it anymore.

18:07 I guess it would be really strange if people were like, “Well, what have you been up to?” and you’re kind of like, “Well… exactly.” You don’t always want to go there, but then where can you go? You haven’t done anything else for the last 5 years, which is a long time, really, isn’t it?

18:27 Yeah. So I can only imagine how people feel who actually grow up in cults. That must be so much harder. What was the very first step you took towards healing?

18:34 I read a lot of books. I did reach out to some counselors, but I found them very unhelpful. So I just resorted to educating myself through books.

18:53 What was unhelpful, can I ask?

18:55 So I tried two. One of them said that she knew exactly how I felt and she had grown up in the Catholic Church, and so she basically just projected all of her own experience and assumed that was what it must have been like for me, right? Which it wasn’t. I just felt like, “I don’t want to argue with you that that wasn’t what it was like,” and it just wasn’t a good fit.

19:19 And the second one just didn’t really talk. She was very obviously expecting me to talk, but I didn’t know how to “do” counseling. I hadn’t been to counseling before. I was like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” So, I didn’t find that very helpful either.

19:36 I did eventually find a very helpful counselor who had cult experience and she was great. Unfortunately, she’s passed away now, but she actually helped quite a few of my friends who left Shincheonji as well.

19:48 What was it about her that was good, or what was helpful for you?

19:53 Well, I think her understanding of coercive control was a massive part of it because she just knew what it was like. She had also been recruited into a cult as an adult and had left, and she had done research into cults. So yeah, she was very helpful with understanding the psychology, which I didn’t understand at all.

20:18 The first time I learned about the actual definition of a cult was like three months after leaving, and it blew my mind. It was very helpful because suddenly I could see the word “cult” was not about beliefs, but it was about behavior and control, and that wasn’t something that I had understood before.

20:36 I think that’s a very, very important piece of information for ex-cult members and current members alike.

20:44 For sure. So, it sounds like she had a really grounded understanding of the mechanics of how cults work.

20:53 Yeah, she did. And she also just had a really warm and gentle manner; she was like a grandmother figure. I just felt really supported by her and she was exactly what I needed at the time.

21:09 That’s wonderful, isn’t it? It makes you feel safe, which means a lot when you feel very vulnerable. You need to feel safe to be able to get anywhere, I think.

21:41 Beyond just escaping, what was the biggest challenge you faced in reclaiming your sense of self?

21:49 I had grown up in Christianity. So when I left Shincheonji, I also left Christianity. I felt kind of like I had no idea who I was because I had built my whole identity on being a Christian and following God’s will. I always thought that I wanted to be a missionary or do something for God, and then now I’m like, “Well, what do I do now?”

22:13 It’s just me, and I didn’t know what parts of my personality were me and what parts were my Christian upbringing. I think that’s probably going to be a long process; I don’t think I’m done. But what I did was I just tried things. I went to lots of stuff—classes and workshops—and tried different hobbies, met new people, and just tried to pay attention to what felt good.

22:45 And that was a lot of fun. I maybe did too many things cuz I’m not good at moderating, right? Giving myself time to rest, which is also a habit from Shincheonji. But I think it’s still something that I do—try to be open to new experiences and pay attention to how they feel for me.

23:04 Same with work. I didn’t really know what on earth I wanted to do for a career because it had never been important to me before. I was like, “Well, maybe now I actually need to have one.” I tried multiple different things and I studied a couple of things and decided both of them were not really what I wanted. Then I just fell into a job that I quite like, and I’m enjoying it for now. I think it’s just staying open and paying attention.

23:42 I like that. So part of your strategy was to just try things to see what you liked and didn’t like.

23:54 Yeah. Basically, I pushed myself to get out of my comfort zone because my comfort zone would probably just be staying in my bedroom, and that’s not very healthy. I was quite lonely as well when I left. I didn’t have a lot of friends; I just had that one person on the outside. While a few other members did leave—so we had a little support group informally, which was lovely—I still really needed to build a support system. So going out and doing things helped with that.

24:24 Because I guess if you like something and you’re hanging out doing that, then those people like it too and you’ve got something in common. And then that’s how you build the relationships that supported you. Is that right?

24:40 Kind of. It took a while because I wasn’t very open to begin with, but it still helped. Even just being around other people who are nice and friendly was a helpful thing. It took time for me to trust people again; that’s something that comes from Shincheonji because people are reporting on you and you don’t feel like you can trust anybody, even your friends. Because the minute you start to doubt, they turn on you.

25:10 And also, some of the friend-making tools that normal people would use are infiltrated by Shincheonji. Things like Meetup and apps like Bumble BFF—there are Shincheonji members all over those things. So I felt really nervous to go to a Meetup group if I didn’t know who was going to be there, because I felt like I just couldn’t deal with that confrontation or the rejection of them ignoring me. But going to a class, they normally wouldn’t pay for a class cuz they don’t have any money. So in doing that, I could almost guarantee that they weren’t going to be there. I felt a lot more comfortable doing that.

26:05 Right. So you deliberately picked places they weren’t going to be.

26:10 Yeah. That I hoped they weren’t going to be. Having the other ex-members that left a few months after me was also really important. We would meet up quite regularly and encourage each other and share our struggles. I think I wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am without having that. It was a couple of years where we were quite a tight group; we went on holiday together and it was so nice. No one else could understand, but they could, and we could just talk about all the terrible things and all the funny things. We just counseled each other, basically.

27:04 Finding some peer support—if you can get it—there’s nothing like it. It’s great that you had those people around you. You did an amazing job pushing yourself to get out there.

27:37 It took time. I didn’t always succeed. Sometimes I did stay in my room, but yeah, that’s okay. You’re going to have good days and bad days.

27:53 If you could give one piece of advice to a person who has just left a similar high-control group, what would be the first thing you’d tell them to do?

28:05 Well, one thing that I didn’t do that I really wish that I had done was take some time just to rest. And I do think there’s an element of privilege in that because you need support to be able to do that. My parents didn’t live in Auckland and I didn’t even tell them I’d left until a month later, but I could have. I could have gone home and taken some rest.

28:36 I think that would have been really good for me because I just threw myself into all of these activities trying to rebuild my life and make up for lost time. I realized much later that there is no timeline and it is okay. Everyone goes through stuff—maybe it’s not a cult, but there isn’t a timeline of when you have to achieve certain things. There’s nothing to be ashamed of. So, I really wish that I had just gone and had a rest. Let my body and my brain recover. And then, educating yourself about coercive control—that was a really important aspect of my recovery.

29:41 To share that stuff. Yeah.

29:45 One of the questions I’d asked someone a while back was about how, often when you’re in a cult, you lose that kind of connection with your body. You’re often separated from it cuz it’s seen as a “dirty” thing or something like that. Did you experience that?

30:00 I mean, I definitely overrode how I felt constantly because that’s what you did in Shincheonji. You should “overcome” your physical body, right? Always. So, I definitely struggled with that—actually listening to my body and how I was feeling. If I was exhausted, I’d just do something anyway. It just didn’t matter how my body felt. I think I’ve gotten a little bit more in touch with that as time’s gone on, but it isn’t something that comes naturally to me at all. I definitely can relate to that disconnection.

30:42 And I’m curious too, because I think you shared your story at Decult. How was that?

30:50 Well, very nerve-wracking! I was shaking like a leaf, but it was also very empowering. A lot of the other people at the conference, I think most of them were born into cults, right? And so I would like to use my story to help people prevent being recruited. I suppose if you stop the parent from getting recruited, then you’re stopping kids from being born into one. It’s one area where I can help because Shincheonji is really deceptive; they’re hard to spot.

31:25 So, yeah, I shared the recruitment methods of Shincheonji. But I think also just understanding the mindset behind cults and the way they think is really important for people on the outside to understand—what is going through someone’s mind as they’re being recruited. All the psychological tools that are being used on them… it’s really not someone’s fault for being recruited. It’s really hard to stand up under that.

31:55 Absolutely. If they know the things that you want or the things you’re vulnerable to, it is powerful stuff because they’re experts in manipulation.

32:08 Yeah, that’s right. And they believe that they’re doing it for your own good. They believe that they’re saving you, and so there’s nothing that you can really do to persuade them not to do it. I think also speaking out like that is taking your power back as well. Initially when I left, I was very afraid of being labeled a “persecutor.” I thought the only way I could keep in touch with people still in Shincheonji was if I didn’t speak out. But I soon realized it didn’t matter what I did; I was always going to be cut off and I was always going to be a “betrayer.” So, I might as well stop some other people from joining.

32:53 And was that the first time you’d shared your story?

32:58 I had been interviewed for articles, but mostly they didn’t use my real name. But I did also speak on Cult Chat before Decult. That was my first time very openly, with my own voice and my own name, speaking out. That was also very nerve-wracking, I bet. But again, I just hope that by sharing my story, I could help some other people. It makes it feel worth it. If I don’t talk about it, then I can’t help anybody else.

33:34 So for you, sharing your story is, in a way, giving back to the support that you had? Is that right?

33:44 I mean, it’s just trying to use my experience to prevent others from going through the same thing or help them get out a little bit sooner than they might have otherwise.

33:54 Yeah, that’s a much better way of putting it. You’ve got to have a certain amount of courage.

34:06 I don’t know—I didn’t always feel very courageous when I was doing it. I’m quite passionate about it, so that helps me to overcome my fear.

34:16 Have you done any other things in that way, like writing or other sharing?

34:25 I was interviewed for a documentary after Decult, so that was actually on camera. That was a very intense thing to do. I don’t know if I’ll do that again! But again, if it’s helpful, I guess that’s good. I’m not necessarily seeking out opportunities because I find it quite overwhelming if I’m doing too much. For example, the conference and the documentary were a bit too much cuz it was all at once. It’s important to me to also look after myself and not just throw myself into a new thing, but try to do this alongside rebuilding my life.

35:16 So, the way that I manage is I’ll pay attention if there’s an opportunity, but I’m not going to make it my entire life. I’m quite an “all or nothing” person, so I have to try to moderate myself.

35:43 That’s quite a skill, actually. Because you said before throwing yourself into something, you actually really consider where you’re at. Was there a way that you learned to do that?

36:02 I mean, I have just thrown myself into some things without considering anything—like when I first left, I immediately started training for a marathon! So moderation is a learned skill, not always easy. But I try to just focus on things that I know I like. It’s trial and error. Even last year, I did a bunch of classes all at once and found myself getting super overwhelmed because I had something on every single evening after work and I was like, “This is not what I need.” So, I don’t know that I’ve necessarily learned it yet, but I’m practicing.

36:44 One of the biggest things that happens to people in cults is they break down your boundaries and you become “at one” with the cult. Is that something you found?

37:00 Yeah, I really struggled with people-pleasing and not thinking about what I wanted in terms of my relationships. I would often just sacrifice myself. If there’s a situation where someone needs to compromise, I’ll just be that person. And it’s really hard for me not to be that person. I think that’s not just the cult, but also my Christian upbringing—just being “selfless.” Sometimes you’ve got to have a self! Boundaries can be a problem, but also I’ve found that I have a lot of “walls” in terms of not wanting to let anyone anywhere near me.

37:46 So you put walls up and boundaries down. What you need to do is lower the walls and bring the boundaries up.

37:56 That’s a good way of looking at it. I guess you mentioned trust before—how has it been for you to rebuild trust with people?

38:26 I think it just took time. I opened myself up little by little to new people and nothing bad happened. So I did a bit more. Over time, when you open yourself up and it goes well, it encourages you to do a little bit more. And then you also get to know that other people let their walls down a little bit more and be a bit more vulnerable with you. That’s how you build relationships, so I guess you’re rewarded if you trust people a little bit.

39:08 And that’s how it should be. In Shincheonji, your friendships are fast-tracked in like a day or two. You’re jumping to the deep stuff very quickly and that’s unnatural. It’s actually normal for a friendship to take a long time to develop as you build trust. That was a helpful thing for me to realize—that it’s okay for me to take time. I don’t have to tell them my whole life story in the first meeting.

39:40 I think that is the thing—people who have been involved in cults tend to be able to share their whole story like a confessional, because you get used to “confessing.” Where actually, you just need to learn to have conversations.

40:02 I think it probably doesn’t help that people are very interested in cults and so they probably encourage that behavior. But yes, it should be a two-way street conversation.

40:16 Looking back at your journey from where you are now, what are you most proud of?

40:23 Maybe just the way that I have challenged myself to step out of my comfort zone. That has made a really big difference. I’m sure it’s sped things up because I’m able to learn quickly what works and what doesn’t. I’m quite a shy person, so it takes a lot of emotional energy to put myself out there. Also, things like rebuilding my financial life. I had absolutely nothing. I had a little bit in KiwiSaver from previous years, but other than that, absolutely nothing. I had to build up from zero, and now me and my sister bought a house together. That feels so good. I am very proud of that.

41:25 It was just luck in some ways—I fell into this job that I really like and there was no “strategic” thing I did to get there. I didn’t even know I’d like the thing I’m doing now, but I took an opportunity and I enjoyed it. I’m proud of what I’ve done with it.

41:54 It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there when you’re in a vulnerable space and don’t want anyone to ask too many questions about your past—like that five-year gap on your CV.

42:08 Yeah, that’s a real problem. I just ended up putting the Shincheonji trust on my CV as a different name for an employer. I worked for them; it filled in the gap. A little life hack there!

42:28 What do you think a healthy life looks like for you today?

42:38 I think the thing I’m seeking most is balance. I struggle cuz I’m interested in a lot of things and I don’t know how to just do one thing at a time. But the ideal healthy life would be having the job that I like, having friends that I spend time with, and also having hobbies and things that I enjoy. And then some rest. Napping is so good! I really struggle with it, but I’m getting there slowly.

43:35 What would you like people to know about people who are leaving or escaping cults?

43:42 I think it looks different for everyone. But I would want people to know that it takes time. Some people around me were a bit frustrated when I didn’t criticize the group immediately after I left. It took a lot of time to digest and to understand what I had been through—to put it in a context separate enough from me that I was able to criticize it. Cuz when I left, I felt like criticizing it was criticizing *me*.

44:15 If you have someone in your life in that situation, just be there for them, be patient, and give them whatever they need cuz it’ll probably change over time. When you’re in a situation that is all-consuming, it’s very hard to have perspective. It takes distance to create space to reflect.

44:57 Yeah, and it’s also the education—understanding that I was manipulated. I didn’t actually join of my own free will cuz I didn’t even know what I was a part of. It’s all just a system set up to manipulate and control people. Understanding that gives you a sense of compassion for yourself and for others who were recruited.

45:39 It’s been amazing to have you here and I feel privileged to have had a chat with you about this. You’re very courageous sharing your story.

46:01 Thank you for having me. I think this is a really cool idea for your podcast and I hope it helps a lot of people.

46:13 That’s all we have for tonight. We will see you in our next session.

46:27 That brings us to the end of this episode of Unspun. We hope what we discussed today resonated with you. We’d love to hear your thoughts and recovery tips, so please reach out at unspun@uncult.support and follow us on Instagram at @un_spun.

46:47 All past episodes are available to stream anytime on planes.org.nz. And hey, a quick favor: please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a review. It really helps other survivors find our community. Join us fortnightly on Tuesdays at 7:00 p.m. for a brand new episode broadcasting on 96.9 FM. Thanks for listening and until next time, be well.