Welcome to Unspun, another episode, a podcast about life inside cults and high control religious groups. We discuss what it takes to rebuild a life, identity, and a sense of self after leaving. This will be a two-part episode. In today’s episode, we will look at Nicola’s journey to recovery and the next episode we’ll explore what it’s like to work as a therapist in this area.

01:07 We are now on YouTube. Please subscribe to the channel, like this episode, and leave us a comment. It’d be awesome to have the first comment being left. It really helps people discover these important stories. Today’s guest is Nicola Ranson, whose story takes us inside the world of Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, also known as Osho. Nicola brings a rare perspective to this conversation.

01:33 That of both a former cult member and now a practicing somatic psychotherapist, specializing in trauma. Before we begin our conversation, let me tell you a little bit more about Nicola. For 10 years, Nicola Ranson was a disciple of the Guru Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, known as Osho. She followed him from India to the cult’s headquarters in Oregon until the

02:00 Commune collapsed amid revelations of criminal activity, including mass poisonings and attempted murder. After she left, she became a somatic psychotherapist specialising in trauma and has worked with survivors from a number of cults. For 17 years, Nicola taught counselling psychology on the adjunct faculty at National University.

02:24 For the past two years she has presented on cult recovery for the International Cultic Studies Association. Nicola was born in the UK, grew up in Canada, and now lives in California with her husband Ron. She is a fan of wild rabbits and democracy. Go wild rabbits and democracy. Her memoir, A Slice of Orange, Loving and Leaving the Osho Rajneesh Cult, will be published by Unsolicited Press in December 2026. I have just finished this book and it’s fantastic. I really loved it. Welcome to the show, Nicola.

03:00 Thank you so much, Alisa. What a nice introduction.

03:03 Yeah. Well, I hope I introduce people nicely. It’s good to get you feeling like—yeah, I think so.

03:09 It’s a good start.

03:12 For sure. Yeah, I love the book. It was—it just felt like such a kind of honest reflection and powerful kind of—I think in a book you can really capture the dynamics and the nuances of what happens in a cult.

03:28 Well, thank you so much. Yeah, I’m glad to hear you enjoyed it. It’s been a very, very, very long labour of love, but nuance was

03:37 Yeah.

03:37 certainly what I was going for.

03:39 Yeah. Yeah, well done. Great. I’m just—I guess we start at your kind of like initial experiences and I’m wondering what your first memories are of being in the cult, if you can remember that far back.

03:57 Sure, I may be

03:59 old, but I can still remember

04:01 Yeah.

04:02 especially having written a memoir, it forces you to remember all that stuff. So

04:05 Yes, for sure.

04:08 I mean it begins of course even before joining because I met people who were involved and I found them absolutely fascinating. And

04:16 Yeah.

04:17 I was really interested in therapy and the Rajneesh group were very much sort of

04:24 bringing together psychotherapy as it was at that time from the human potential movement and Eastern mysticism. So that combination

04:31 Yes.

04:32 to me was irresistible because there were

04:34 Yeah.

04:35 two things that I was fascinated by. So I ended up going out to the ashram in India when I was twenty-four and became a disciple and spent a few months there and then just couldn’t stop

04:49 figuring out, well, how do I get back to do this longer and be closer and be

04:53 Yeah.

04:54 a worker, which was sort of the next level up. And

04:57 Right.

04:58 I was in Canada where I grew up, earning money to get back to India when

05:04 Mm.

05:04 Rajneesh moved to the United States. So I ended up joining up with him in Oregon, which is where the massive commune was for four

05:15 Yeah.

05:15 plus years.

05:16 And I lived there through to the bitter end of that.

05:19 Wow. Yeah. It it’s astounding the amount of work that went into building that and how many

05:26 Ha ha.

05:27 people lived there and yeah, it’s mind blowing. And the amount of work you all did as well.

05:31 It really—yeah. No, you’re

05:34 you’re right, ’cause it’s such a huge scale that it’s kind of hard to comprehend. I think if people have seen the Netflix series Wild Wild Country, they get a sense of what

05:46 Yeah.

05:47 a hundred square miles is, what

05:50 Mm.

05:50 no X thousand going up to some thirty thousand when we had visitors, what that meant, you know, making meals

05:57 Yeah.

05:58 and

05:58 building structures and creating. But that was also part of the adventure for me. I don’t like it to come across as, dear, you know, we slaved to more unpaid labour, which was true.

06:10 Yes.

06:11 but it also was a coming together of a community to create

06:15 Yeah.

06:15 something that we were really into. And

06:18 Yeah.

06:19 as you know from the book, I used to be quite involved in theatre. I studied theatre and it did remind me a lot of how people come together to put on a production. You kind of

06:28 Yeah.

06:28 lose yourself in that. And of course

06:31 Yeah.

06:31 in a cult we lose ourselves in many ways. But there was an excitement in building a city. It was a

06:39 Yeah.

06:39 it was an incorporated city at some point. So yeah, we worked damn hard. Seven days a week, twelve

06:45 Yeah. Yeah, you did.

06:47 hours a day.

06:48 And I think that’s like at the—I don’t know if this is what you’ve noticed, but at the beginning when cults kind of first start, there’s just this beautiful kind of feeling of community and all working together and it’s such a powerful kind of experience for everybody. And really beautiful in some ways.

07:09 Yeah.

07:09 Well,

07:09 they do tend to attract idealists and you know,

07:14 Yeah.

07:15 we, as you know, join because it’s something we’re already aligned with, or so we think.

07:20 Yes.

07:21 And yeah, there was a lot of idealism. And when I’m talking to people who were there and lived through it as I did, the most nostalgia goes back to India because India was

07:32 Right.

07:32 was much more loose and open, the hierarchy wasn’t so

07:37 clear, especially

07:37 Yeah.

07:38 if you were just a visitor as I was, and there was the excitement and allure of India. And

07:44 Yeah.

07:45 then in Oregon things became much more rigid and the power structure was more rigid, and then eventually

07:51 Yeah.

07:52 all those crimes were exposed. And not that there weren’t some crimes going on in India, but nobody knew about that and it was nothing

08:00 Yeah.

08:00 to the degree that was experienced in Oregon.

08:03 Right, yeah, yeah. I wonder too, ’cause I didn’t hear much about this in your book, were there children at this that lived with you in Oregon as well? Or was that discouraged? Yeah.

08:14 Well, that’s a very good question, Alisa. And

08:18 the former children who are listening to this will be going, Yay, someone asked that

08:23 question. Because it was one of the main complaints residents had about the Netflix series Wild Wild Country, which I happen to think was a very good portrayal, was where were the kids?

08:34 Right. Yeah.

08:35 And for one thing, Rajneesh was very much against people having kids.

08:41 Mm.

08:42 So

08:42 a lot of people were sterilized, that’s one whole issue. So

08:46 Yes.

08:47 we had a birth rate of zero, which is something with a population that got to, you know, five, six thousand. But yes, there were kids. People who’d previously had kids brought kids. No one was born

08:59 Right.

09:00 there, but so kids did grow up, but there weren’t very many compared to

09:04 Right.

09:04 the adults. So

09:06 I kind of understand people who didn’t notice in their research because they really were not that visible.

09:13 Right.

09:14 they had a school in Antelope, which was some 30 miles out of the main ranch. So I, in my four years, hardly ever saw kids, just a few

09:24 Right.

09:25 teenagers who were doing some work around where I was.

09:30 because the kids were living in a separate place. If you worked with the kids, of course, you know, as a teacher and so on, yes, of course you’d be very involved. But kids were not prioritized and it certainly led to abuse and I’m sorry to say sexual abuse.

09:45 Right, yeah. Yeah.

09:48 And I mention that in my book. I was asked not to go into it in detail because it’s not my story, but I feel

09:55 Yeah.

09:56 a great responsibility to say

09:58 Kids were there and the grown-ups let them down by

10:02 Yeah.

10:03 having them grow up in this environment where their well-being was not supported and

10:10 Yeah.

10:11 that’s what happened to the kids.

10:12 Yeah. That’s good to know. Yeah, ’cause often children are, in my experience, they’re often left completely alone or treated like mini adults. Yeah.

10:24 Yeah. Well, mini

10:25 adults was definitely—I think the culture at the time also supported that to some extent, ’cause some of this neglect, I mean, there’s neglect and there’s abuse. No,

10:36 Mm.

10:37 neglect, you know, a lot of people say, Well, what about the parents? Well, why weren’t they keeping an eye on—and no, it’s a good question, but I also see parents thinking

10:46 we’re doing the best possible thing for the kids by letting the guru look after them in the ways that he’s devised with his schools

10:52 Yeah. Mm.

10:54 and they’re living in a separate trailer and so on. And I’ve spoken to a few kids and I’ve certainly interviewed people for when I wrote my memoir. And some of them, you know, have written books and made movies. There’s some excellent things out at the moment. But I also have talked to kids who said, Well, I actually had a great time. You know, that there was a

11:13 Right.

11:14 mixture of

11:15 experiences but some of them were really not pretty and we certainly didn’t equip kids for being in the world after it ended.

11:23 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

11:25 A lot of the education involved, you know, voluntary work projects.

11:31 Yeah.

11:31 Which some of the boys—I worked in video at some point and I say boys ’cause that’s who I remember working there. You know, they were thoroughly enjoying tinkering with audio and video equipment

11:41 Yeah.

11:42 and so on. So it looked to me like, well, that’s—they’re having a good time, they’re learning something.

11:45 Yeah, yeah. It’s a useful skill. Yeah.

11:48 Right.

11:49 In your experience, if someone pushed back or doubted, what would happen? What were the consequences of that?

11:57 Well, not great, sort of typical cult stuff. I mean, first of all,

12:02 Mm.

12:03 we were trained to see doubts as our problem. No, if you’re

12:08 Yeah.

12:08 sort of witnessing what is my mind doing and you’re taught that this mind is not a very good thing, it just yadders on all the time and we need to just be with it, which to some extent I think is true. But

12:21 Critical thinking is also an important part of the mind. So negativity, we were told, was basically our flaw. So there was this whole aspect of shame and blame, which was subtle because

12:34 Yeah.

12:35 this was a group that was about, let’s, you know—initially Rajneesh would

12:40 talk about, you know, I accept you completely, you know, you’ve got to be yourself. This was about freedom. It wasn’t one of those coercive groups. So actually acknowledging that, I’ve got negative feelings about something, that was something to process. That was something you worked through. That was something, if you wanted to confess that to your boss, you know, they would help you with that.

13:03 Yeah.

13:04 but it was very much frowned upon and it was very much a source of shame.

13:08 And as a therapist, I think this is one of the really harmful things to teach people that there are such things as negative feelings like

13:18 Yeah.

13:18 anger and resentment and so on, rather than, maybe those feelings are telling you something important. So

13:25 Yeah.

13:25 people who fought back or really challenged the system, they might get a chance or two, but

13:32 Really the message was, if you don’t like it here, the road’s right there, you know, get out.

13:38 Yeah.

13:38 not that that was an easy thing to do, but the result was that we were terrified of being kicked out if we spoke up and said, I really don’t like this and so on.

13:49 Yeah. So they use often, and I guess this was true for your cult, was they use—they take away your ability to be critical and kind of swap that out with, you know, there’s no negativity here. And if you do have negativity or critical thinking, there’s shame and ultimately shunning really, in a sense. Yeah.

14:13 Ultimately shunning for sure.

14:15 Being, you know,

14:16 Mm.

14:16 kicked out from all the people you love and your partners or whoever.

14:20 Yeah. What do you

14:22 Yeah, it’s important.

14:23 think, yeah. When do you think the first cracks started to appear for you?

14:28 Well, there were some massive cracks and those were the ones I noticed. And then of course in retrospect you can go back and say, well, I never quite liked that and I never really liked that, but everything else was so great, I made these mental gymnastics to get around those pieces.

14:48 Yeah.

14:49 the big cracks were really when the Share-A-Home project

14:54 started. And that was

14:55 this bizarre event where suddenly we were told our commune, which was a pretty protected meditative space in many ways, was going to be home for thousands of homeless people from all across the United States, which was a very different demographic and it really shook up our little white privileged

15:19 group for the most part.

15:21 Yeah, a bit.

15:23 And the truth was they actually outnumbered us. So we ended up—and I think we were about 4,000 and the homeless were about 5,000, something around that. And so it was massive. And just

15:33 Wow. I didn’t realise it was that many. Wow.

15:38 coincidentally, they were all American citizens. And coincidentally this was before a big election coming up where

15:46 Uh-huh.

15:46 we were electing a county commissioner who was going to confirm whether the city could remain incorporated because the incorporation had been challenged. But we were told this was about sharing our bounty with those who need it. And that struck me as really weird because charity and social justice was not the direction that Rajneesh went.

16:11 Bribes.

16:12 actually criticized Mother Teresa of all people, you know, who does that? It was so mean. But

16:16 Yeah. I know, that blew my mind. Yeah. Yeah.

16:23 but I mean, so that you could say that was a red flag back in the day because that stuck in my craw. Like, what? You know, why would he do that? But the explanation or justification was, well, if we focus on our own spiritual growth,

16:39 we’re gonna do so much more for the world than one person, and she’s doing it out of ego and looking good, all kinds of accusations he made, which in retrospect looked like, you know, he didn’t like the competition. That’s my judgment.

16:54 Yeah. Right.

16:56 But having come from India, where there were so many opportunities to do good, to help the community around, and it did not happen.

17:05 To suddenly have this project in Oregon happen was very weird and very uncomfortable. We managed to bring in rival street gangs and there were fights and there were attacks and all this stuff. It’s like, my God, where’s my commune gone? But

17:20 It blows my mind, like the

17:22 political manoeuvring plus also again the logistics of that whole

17:28 Yeah.

17:29 exercise.

17:30 Yeah. Logistics were definitely our thing. It’s like, okay,

17:33 Mm.

17:34 go and build ten platforms for six thousand or, you know, figure out how to grow more food for X thousand, you know, all these ridiculously large tasks that

17:44 Mm.

17:45 were then taken on and succeeded.

17:48 Yeah. So that was one big kind of red flag, would you say?

17:52 It

17:52 was a red flag, and then things cracked when we were called to a general meeting, and Sheela, who was Rajneesh’s secretary at that time, was presiding over this meeting, and she suddenly made this announcement about we opened our home to you, speaking to the homeless folks, and you’ve treated us so badly and in return

18:16 you’ve attacked us and you’ve desecrated—I mean, people there were a lot of mentally ill people in that crowd.

18:24 Yeah.

18:25 so there definitely were problems. She was not completely wrong, but she made it this enormous accusation of how dare you do this and your time, you know, you need to leave now. And there were buses outside the large temple building we were in waiting to go.

18:44 So these people had the choice of coming up and grovelling in some way and saying, you’re right, I’m so sorry, I’ll do everything to stay and apologise, or get on the bus. And I think they already had designated certain people that they wanted out. But I was

19:01 Rise.

19:01 there in this massive audience witnessing this and going, What is going on? This is not only wrong but cruel.

19:10 Because people were not taken back to their living accommodation. They were not given their possessions, their coats, or whatever. And some of them were screaming. And I’m—I heard this woman screaming, Don’t, I don’t want to go, I don’t want to leave. You know, and they’re being dragged out in the cold weather. And I just knew this was wrong. This was absolutely

19:32 Yeah.

19:33 wrong and cruel. And I didn’t

19:36 have the courage to say anything, and it would have been pointless to have said anything because they would just say, Okay, you go too, which everyone acknowledged, because the people driving the buses afterwards said, you know, that was awful. And some of them were instructed to take the coats away. I mean, it was a very cruel thing. And then

19:54 yeah.

19:55 they were dumped in a lot of neighbouring Oregon towns. So that

20:00 Right.

20:01 was sort of a screw you to

20:02 the people of Oregon with whom we were battling and all this litigation. But that so

20:04 Right, yeah. Yeah.

20:07 that was no—not a red flag, that was a volcano.

20:10 Yeah, right. That was kind of almost the tipping point by the sounds of it.

20:16 Almost. Some

20:18 of us it takes a few tipping points.

20:20 Yeah. Yeah. To be pushed beyond whatever you think you can handle, I guess, in some sense.

20:27 What was the moment or event or the realisation that made you understand you couldn’t keep living inside that world?

20:35 Well, I think mine is a sort of an unusual situation ’cause usually that’s someone’s story of exiting a cult. But

20:43 Yes.

20:44 what happened for us was the leadership left in the middle of the night. Sheela and all the top leadership. Suddenly we were told in the morning, they’ve gone. You know, they’d left on a plane. So we were absolutely bewildered and

21:00 Must have been a real shock.

21:02 it was

21:03 It was a real shock because no one could compute it. Well, I certainly couldn’t. She—I always thought she was divinely devoted. Why would she suddenly leave? And then Rajneesh himself called a meeting, which was unheard of, and he just started saying, look, all these crimes have taken place, my commune has become

21:23 a concentration camp and Sheela was in charge and people were poisoned and so this was all news. It’s like, what the hell is he talking about? So this sort of devolved into the FBI coming in because what we didn’t know was that there’d been a grand jury investigation going on and some subpoenas were coming down and

21:49 he must have had, I think he did have advanced notice of this. So in a way it was a really good thing that he broke the silence about these crimes and invited the FBI in because we didn’t have a standoff situation.

22:03 Yeah.

22:04 But they came in and an investigation was underway, and he had more and more bizarre meetings, and suddenly journalists from all over the world

22:12 world were there and there were thousands of us in the state of shock and cognitive dissonance. You know, we were about

22:18 Yeah.

22:19 love. Over seven hundred and fifty people were poisoned. And that’s only one of the crimes. There were multiple crimes. So

22:25 That’s incredible.

22:26 and then we were told at some point, you know, he was eventually arrested and made a plea bargain and he left. And still I didn’t leave. And most of us didn’t leave. So I can’t—I mean

22:39 I have friends who did leave, but they were really the minority.

22:43 Yeah.

22:43 so I didn’t leave until we were told, it’s done, we’re broke, you have to go. So

22:48 Yeah.

22:49 I still can’t say that I saw through it. I was questioning, I didn’t know what the truths were, I was trying to find out, but I was just sort of scrambling to function at that point. So

23:02 Right.

23:03 it wasn’t until after I left and I had a bit more

23:06 time to think it through and start to wonder who can I talk to? Who is sharing my doubts? Who is sharing my questions about what we were given as the story, which was

23:19 Yeah.

23:19 Sheela was responsible for all these crimes and she’d gone, so there was no problem. And a lot of people still believe that, but I didn’t, you know, I felt like it was just too slick.

23:28 Hmm. Yeah.

23:31 So really it was a long extrication process over the next few years.

23:35 And it’s interesting that you say that because I guess that question that I asked kind of assumes that people just kinda get up and walk out the door. But actually leaving a cult can be quite a long, messy, drawn out process. Yeah. I left mine in very bizarre circumstances and over a court case to do with my children. I thought, well, I’ll just leave and then it won’t be a problem. But I was still in

24:03 I guess, psychologically.

24:04 Hmm.

24:05 So yeah, it is an example of how it’s not just like you walk out the door and start a new life.

24:12 It’s years and years and years and years.

24:15 Yeah,

24:16 yeah.

24:17 It’s—and the process doesn’t end.

24:20 Yeah. What was the most difficult thing about leaving for you?

24:24 The division in the community between those that we call the true believers and those who really questioned the guru essentially. I was lucky I came to San Diego, I’ve been here ever since, and we’ve had a pretty nice community where those two factions

24:45 speak to each other and get together sometimes and their parties. Rajneeshis are very good on parties.

24:53 Yeah.

24:53 but it still makes a big barrier between people I really care about who are, for example, now pissed off with me for writing a book and using the word cult in the title. You know, it’s

25:06 Right.

25:07 so those divisions I think are the hardest.

25:10 Yeah, yeah. And cooking all your meals? I just—that sounds amazing.

25:11 I miss people doing my laundry too. Yeah, that was really nice. And—and see

25:19 I like the music, the dancing, the community. The coming together.

25:21 Yeah. Yeah.

25:24 I’m glad we’ve salvaged some of that. But

25:26 Yeah.

25:27 there’s also, you know, hostility within and, you know, the stuff that goes on on Facebook groups of people, you know, sniping at each other. It’s like, you know, this was a spiritual community. Can’t we just disagree, please, people? But apparently not. Exactly. It reminds me

25:42 Can’t we just be spiritual about it? Kind and loving. Yeah.

25:50 of my mother, you know, at some point when—no, my parents were really upset about this whole thing.

25:55 Mm.

25:56 But I remember at some point, you know, going, being defensive and my mother sort of saying something like, Well, I can see you’ve really become

26:04 spiritual. This has really helped you a lot, you know? This was always like, but Mommy, I’m so happy, you know.

26:08 red flag to a bull. Yeah.

26:13 Yeah.

26:14 Yeah, I think there’s a lot of, yeah, for me coming out and doing this work, the podcast and kind of talking about my experience, there’s been a significant amount of kind of, what are my old friends gonna think of me? And I know they don’t think it’s a cult and, like, I grew up with these people, they’re like brothers and sisters to me and it’s a

26:37 A tough thing to face.

26:39 Did you grow up in a cult? And was

26:41 Yes, yes, yeah.

26:43 it a more conservative? Is it one I’ve heard of?

26:46 It’s called Subud, have you heard of it?

26:48 No.

26:49 It was started in the fifties in Indonesia by a man named Bapak. It has a kind of Muslimy culture to it. And my parents joined—they found it in New York, kind of amidst all the kind of resurgence of Islam in the sixties and seventies. Yeah.

27:09 So yeah, that was a long journey. Yeah, so I was born into it.

27:13 Yes, it’s a very, very different story.

27:16 Yeah. Yeah, I think it is for sure. Yeah.

27:20 Well, I think

27:20 it’s important that, you know, and we’ve been late to it for cult survivors to acknowledge the experience of second-generation and third-generation.

27:29 Yeah.

27:30 I mean, it’s—I used to think—I mean, it’s hard because I chose to join. I

27:36 Yeah.

27:36 was an adult, or so they say. But how much of an adult one is at twenty-four, it’s hard to accept that too.

27:42 Who knows? Yeah.

27:45 But certainly, you know, I’d had experience of another world, I had friends from before, I had an education, and kids did not who grew up there.

27:56 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I think

27:58 And I don’t know

27:59 I think I’d like to do a panel on that, like what’s the recovery like for people who are second generation and people who choose to join. I think it’d be an interesting topic. Yeah.

28:13 Please do, ’cause it’s an important

28:14 topic and so many former kids have died by their own hands, and that

28:20 Yeah, yeah.

28:21 is a very, very important thing to address.

28:24 It is, yeah. When did you realise that leaving was only one part of it and that you also had to deconstruct what had happened to you?

28:34 Well, I guess that question probably makes more sense for someone who’s left rather than someone whether the cult left me, because I

28:42 Yes.

28:42 see the whole actual mental leaving was deconstruction. No,

28:48 Right.

28:49 asking, well, first of all, the deconstruction of what really happened and who was responsible and

28:58 Do I hold the Guru responsible or his secretary? Or is it a combination? Because I was very concerned with the criminal acts, like

29:07 Yeah.

29:07 who perpetrated them and why? No, they made no sense to me at all. And in fact, I was talking to a friend about this not long ago at the ICSA conference, and I was talking about the homeless project and

29:22 Mm.

29:23 the tie-in with the election. And this is an ex-cult person, and he said, it was for an election? You know, he still hadn’t put that together. No, he thought it was actually a charity project.

29:33 Or wow.

29:36 No, and so this sort of deconstruction of, well, why did that happen? And why did that happen is an ongoing process. And whenever I talk to someone who was there, and especially if they had a job

29:49 Where they were a little higher in the hierarchy and knew more about what was going on, things are still clicking into place. So there’s that

29:56 Yeah.

29:57 deconstruction of what were the facts? What’s my best possible assessment and understanding of the facts? And that I’ve tried to portray in the memoir. And then

30:07 Mm.

30:08 the other piece is really the question I ask at the beginning is: how do we

30:14 How do we come to believe things so very, very differently? How could I think I was part of a group that was committed to love and peace and making the world a better place? And the FBI saw my group as a threat to humanity, or I don’t know to what level, but we were

30:34 Yeah.

30:35 the origins of the largest

30:37 bioterror attack in modern American history. No,

30:40 Wow.

30:41 that’s saying a lot. That was, you know, over seven hundred and fifty people poisoned. And the reason I say modern American history, because the one before that was bringing in measles and germs to the Native Americans through blankets and so on. So

30:55 Right, yeah.

30:58 I don’t like to say it was the first bioterror attack, but it was certainly one of the most serious

31:04 Yeah.

31:09 Yeah. And so

31:10 seeing what I’ve tried to portray in the book is how does a belief system operate? ‘Cause that’s what bewildered me. When I was walking around this state of shock and cognitive dissonance, it was like, Well, how can I believe something with all the certainty, a hundred percent, and find out, you know, I was completely wrong. And I actually think that’s a fair

31:34 fascinating question and I’ve been sort of thinking about that for, you know, forty years.

31:40 Yeah. Yeah. It I think for me it really rocked my sense of

31:46 How do I make decisions if everything I was so certain about was never right?

31:52 Yeah, right.

31:53 How do I know that I’m doing the right thing? Yeah.

31:56 That is the journey back, isn’t it?

31:58 It absolutely is. Yeah.

32:01 Were there fears that stayed in your system even after you no longer kind of—after that kind of deconstruction process, I guess, or?

32:10 Fears?

32:11 Yeah.

32:13 Well, sure I’ve got plenty of fears. I still sometimes have a dream of trying to leave, which is interesting to me.

32:20 Right.

32:20 because when I lived there I was never consciously trying to leave, you know, I wanted to stay. But I have a dream of the long—the twenty-plus-mile road to get out and there’s no

32:34 transport and I had no money. So some sort of fear around that and fear

32:39 Yeah.

32:40 of groups, not wanting to join groups when I feel

32:43 Yeah.

32:44 especially the lovey-dovey, we’re all in this together, let’s sing happy songs. Are those the sort of

32:52 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

32:53 fears you’re thinking of?

32:55 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The New Age kind of spiritual movements and things. Yeah.

33:02 Yeah, the fear of trusting

33:05 Mm.

33:05 trusting leaders, but some of those are really healthy fears.

33:09 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Was there a moment when you stopped saying it is just your personal struggle and started recognizing, I guess, the systems around it or the systems that allowed it to happen?

33:23 Absolutely. And also when we talk about personal struggle, I still feel a lot of positivity about my experience. And I always say that with hesitation because I think, is some of that still denial? Is that some of that’s still a dissociative element? Maybe, yeah.

33:39 Yeah.

33:40 And I also think it’s very important to acknowledge the joy and acknowledge the friendships and acknowledge the love.

33:48 Remind me of the question again. Where were we? Where was I headed with this?

33:50 when you stopped seeing it as your personal struggle and started recognizing like the systems around it that allowed it to happen.

33:58 Well, the systems per se, I did a master’s in social work a few years later. That was sort of my way back into the psychology field that I’d always been interested in.

34:10 Mm.

34:11 And the class on organizational systems absolutely entranced me because I saw some of that as, you know, systems have their own way of operating and

34:23 they want to survive and they are going to do what they have to to survive.

34:29 Mm.

34:29 And that fits so perfectly. And because when you look at, well, who did this and who did that and who was criminally responsible, survival was a big factor in why people did these things. And there was a sense of this movement has to survive, this organization has to survive, and then people were doing

34:48 nefarious things to make it survive. So in that way I think systems was very important to me. And then, you know, groupthink and all that was fascinating.

34:58 Yeah.

34:59 Yeah. What did you learn about groupthink that was interesting?

35:03 I think the enormous influence humans have on one another and how we’re all programmed for wanting love and acceptance and people are willing to overlook a great deal in order to get that. And

35:20 Yeah.

35:20 all those experiments that were done where people would

35:24 completely deny what they were seeing because everyone else in the room was saying, no, that’s three lines. And the person who sees the four lines goes, yeah, yeah, it must be three lines. You know, it’s just how human beings operate. And there was that

35:37 Yeah.

35:38 book, Sebastian Junger, I think, wrote a book called Tribe. And it was simply about our human need

35:47 to be in tribes. We’re mammals. We need other

35:50 Yeah.

35:50 warm-blooded folks around to survive. And we

35:54 Absolutely.

35:55 all have these tribal instincts. So he wrote this book about tribes, had, you know, absolutely nothing to do with cults, but it made so much sense to me for explaining cults and when I talk to people who’d be so stupid as to join a cult sort of field.

36:15 you know, I talk about, well, who’s your favorite rock musician and do you go to those concerts and, you know, people have become fans and make it their whole lives. I mean, we have many,

36:26 Yeah.

36:27 many, many different sorts of tribes. So of course the human need to connect is, thank God, in us all.

36:35 Yeah, it is. And cults just offer this romantic perfect way of kind of being with other people, often

36:44 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

36:46 mixed with that kind of prayer or worship practices that kind of bring these heightened experiences of oneness and yeah, when you have

36:57 That’s right.

36:58 Yeah, a group of people, you’re all feeling this kind of really powerful state and then community on top of it. It’s almost like the perfect solution in some sense.

37:09 So I do miss some of that. Yeah,

37:11 Mm.

37:12 I miss—I loved ecstatic states. And

37:16 Yes. Yeah.

37:18 joining with people in song. I mean, I really think we

37:22 Mm.

37:22 all need more song and more music and more community. And I know, yeah, and dance

37:26 Dancing. Yeah.

37:28 exactly. And our Native American community, if—when they get together and they’re having a powwow and the public’s invited, it’s like

37:35 this is really something that there’s rhythm

37:38 Yeah.

37:39 and you sit there all day long listening to, sort of calming down and joining in and yeah, great stuff.

37:47 Yeah.

37:47 Yeah.

37:48 Sorry, I’m just getting myself together for a question. If someone was at the beginning of their process, what would you want them to know that helped you the most?

37:58 Mm.

37:59 I think trust your distrust because people are trying to find how to trust again

38:06 Mm.

38:07 and that’s it’s a slow process but no one should be rushed into it.

38:13 Mm-hmm.

38:15 And to share how many there are of us now out here in the world all over the world.

38:23 Yeah.

38:23 Who’ve been

38:23 in this wide, wide variety of cults. There’s such a diversity of cults. That’s what I love about conferences like your Decult in New Zealand.

38:31 Yeah. Yeah.

38:33 that share these similar patterns and are willing to help. I mean, I think sometimes people, when they leave, they do—they’re so desperate for help, they also might rush.

38:45 To something that looks like help that might not be, it might turn out to be another cult. That’s why I say trust your distrust, you know, and

38:54 Yes.

38:54 a lot of people, you know, don’t want to go to therapy. They don’t want another top-down person telling them something.

39:01 Hmm.

39:02 I’ve personally found friends and peers the most useful support. Well, that’s something I would say. If you can’t trust the peers in your own cult, find some from another cult.

39:13 Yeah.

39:13 No, there’s

39:13 there’s a whole cross-understanding between cults, you know. We really—we can help each other.

39:19 Yeah, yeah, I agree. Yeah, absolutely. We’ve started a support group here in Christchurch and the thing that I notice is that we’re all from wildly different backgrounds. All our stories are the same. You know? Yeah, really powerful. Someone’ll Puddon?

39:34 Isn’t that interesting? Yeah. What would you tell people as the

39:40 what would you, if you were to answer that question, what would you tell someone starting out?

39:44 actually along the lines of what you’re saying, because I—for me when I left I was so naive. I—I—it was just such a vulnerable state to be in because I was

39:58 Yeah.

39:58 so distressed. I had no idea where the distress was coming from.

40:03 So I just would reach for things that would soothe that distress and often got me in a lot of trouble.

40:07 Mm, mm.

40:10 And I—I my hope is that we start educating health professionals and counsellors on how to kind of pick this up or how to

40:21 Mm.

40:22 teach people leaving cults discernment and how to

40:26 make good decisions for yourself. It’s

40:28 Hmm, mm.

40:30 such a kind of rocky journey in many ways for many people. Yeah.

40:36 I think I’d add to that that the world is not this hostile place you’ve been taught. That’s

40:42 Right, yes, I

40:43 it’s a mess, but it’s a human mess, and there are really good caring people as well as some others, and that’s where the discernment comes in.

40:52 Yeah. Exactly.

40:55 Yeah. And how do you discern where these good caring people are? And yeah, yeah, for sure. I’ve just got a couple of kind of three quick questions before we wrap up and we ask these questions of all our guests. If you could go back and speak to yourself the day you left, what would you say?

41:14 The day I left, let’s see.

41:16 I think I would really want to

41:19 Tell myself that I wasn’t wrong.

41:22 Mm.

41:23 That

41:23 I was following my heart and my ideals, and they’ve led me into all kinds of places, some of which may not have been great. But that doesn’t mean that I was wrong to try to follow what felt right to me. Because

41:40 Yeah.

41:41 I think we’d lose that. And understandably it gets very confusing, but I think going back to

41:48 to find out because I feel like my ideals and my path now are very much what they were before and

41:55 Yeah.

41:56 even during. They just weren’t given much nurturing and

42:00 Yeah.

42:00 support, and I wasn’t encouraged to individuate, you know, the very, very opposite. But it doesn’t make me wrong. I—I feel like the self-compassion piece.

42:11 is just an enormous part of recovery. That’s what I found actually in writing my memoir, which I hadn’t expected because I felt like it really—I finished it so many years later.

42:22 Mm.

42:23 So I’d had worked through a great many things. But I was shocked by, my gosh, I’m actually feeling compassion for this young girl and really seeing her, honey, you—you were really

42:38 trying hard.

42:39 Yeah.

42:40 It’s not so bad to want to make the world a better place. You know, it’s understandable

42:43 Yeah.

42:45 that you trusted these beautiful people. So that sort of voice I think, the gentle compassion, no, it’s

42:53 Yeah.

42:54 not—it’s not wrong. It was just part

42:56 Yeah.

42:56 of the zigzag of life.

42:58 Yeah. If you could name one thing that supported you the most, what do you think that would be?

43:04 What comes to mind is my friend Julia. She was really my first close non-disciple friend I met. And

43:12 It’s embarrassing still to say it, but I hadn’t really thought people could be spiritual outside of my cult. So

43:20 that’s not surprising.

43:23 to meet this woman I was working with and go, well, she’s gotten incredibly rich in her life and we became business partners and lived together for a while and I felt that it was

43:34 my relationship with this non-sannyasin, whom I really trusted, that was a huge support. And

43:42 Yeah.

43:43 plus the fact that we were business partners, because one of the big problems so many people have, and I certainly did, is how do you start with zero money, zero

43:52 Yeah.

43:53 resume, zero credit cards, zero credit history?

43:56 Yeah.

43:57 that’s a big help that anyone leaving needs—financial

44:02 advice, support, jobs

44:03 Absolutely.

44:04 and I wish the cult organisations could—no, they always need money themselves, but it really is such an important avenue of recovery.

44:14 Absolutely. Yeah, it’s crucial. What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

44:21 Well,

44:21 I think they’re not so different to you, I would say, because I think people love to think they’re so different to themselves,

44:28 yes. Yeah.

44:30 because then it’s not threatening that, well, that’s them, those

44:32 Yeah.

44:33 mindless zombies or whatever. And I’ve written the book, you know, hoping that the journey of one person that people might identify with will bring that to light. It’s like, no, we’re not so different.

44:46 But I think also really

44:48 being incredibly gentle. No, the degree of vulnerability of someone exiting. I mean, I felt it as if my skin had all been taken off and I was walking naked in the world because I could feel sort of every vibration. No, I hadn’t been around this noise, these cars, this—what was this ATM machine thing? What was this? No, how do

45:09 Yeah.

45:10 you do this? So we have to pay at the gas station. You know, it’s a huge, huge shock. So

45:16 Yeah.

45:16 A lot of gentleness and slowness is required. But you’d be surprised. I would say, I’m talking as you, the outsider, no, you might really have something to learn from someone who’s been in a cult because they’ve experienced something of the human condition and the need to belong, and how our minds work and how belief systems work that I think is valuable to the outer society and

45:43 what we see going on politically and what you see

45:46 Yeah.

45:47 about leadership and all kinds of work environments and health club

45:51 Yeah.

45:51 environments or whatever it is, there’s something to really be learnt from people who have deconstructed how does this stuff operate. You know, I think we’ve got a lot

46:01 Exactly.

46:03 of skills.

46:03 Yeah. Thank you, Nicola. And now we’re

46:06 I’m—I’m tempted

46:07 to put my hands together, isn’t that very culty?

46:09 Yeah. Ha ha ha, why not? And now we wrap

46:13 up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you to you, Nicola. I’m sure your story will inspire and give hope to many people. Thank you for spending time with us. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen and to feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause.

46:34 Breathe and reach out if you need to. You’re not alone in this. We honour everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.

00:00 Gibson from the Unspun podcast, and I'm really happy to welcome listeners and viewers today to this special bonus podcast about the Survivor Community Day that happens after the decult conference is happening October 24th and 25th. And here I have with me

00:21 Lindy, do you want to introduce yourself?

00:23 Kiora everybody, I'm Lindy, I'm from the Olive Leaf Network. It's great to be with you all today.

00:28 Ingrid, do you want introduce yourself?

00:30 My name is Ingrid Campbell. I'm a counselor and creative art therapist based in Invercago and I am also the wellbeing and cultural advisor for Decult this year.

00:40 Nice. Hi Noah, can you give us a little bit about yourself?

00:44 Yes, I'm Noah. I am from Nelson at the moment. I am a counselor and a yoga, meditation, mindfulness teacher. And I am very honored and excited to support Ingrid both at the Decode as part of the team and at the Survivor Day the next day.

01:05 That's great.

01:06 Thank you. So the Survivor Community Day takes place on Labor Day, Monday, the twenty sixth of October, at the Multicultural Event Center in Hagley Park, Christchurch. and is a joint initiative between the Olive Leaf Network and a little bit of help from Uncult here and supported by Rewoven, Ingrid and Noah, who are

01:29 gonna be facilitating a lot of the experiences on the day if if that's something that you want to take part in. yeah, the the the decal conference is as many of you already know is about coercive control and high demand groups. and the day can be a very sort of whilst validating

01:49 it can be a very intense experience and includes a lot of trauma material, can be emotionally heavy and draining or activating for some people. and that's I think a lot of us all came up with the same idea pretty much was that we need a day of compression for for survivors and a day that they can

02:11 connect and get together. Lindy, you went to the first T cult conference. I was unfortunately overseas. Can you can you tell us a little bit about that?

02:21 Yeah, thanks Jaya. It is so exciting to have another decult and I do think it's an incredible opportunity. you know, internationally there's a conference called ICSA International Cultural Studies Association that has been going forever, but that's very far away for those of us in Australia and New Zealand and so it's you know difficult to get there. So I think decult has really filled a gap there and provides this incredible space for those of us down under to get together.

02:47 are those of us whose lives have been impacted by high control groups, whether it's us ourselves, whether we've been born and raised in a group, or whether we have been recruited at some stage in our lives as an adult, or whether it's been our our parents or our family or our friends that we've seen impacted by it, or also people in professional spaces. You know, there are loads of us in New Zealand and Australia, you know, thousands, who have been impacted in

03:12 one way or another by high control groups. And so this is an amazing opportunity for us to all

03:17 Hmm.

03:17 come together. and yeah, my gosh, like have you seen the list of speakers coming this year? Like there's just such

03:24 Yeah.

03:24 an incredible diversity of voices and you know, specialties and and experiences and survivors from all different kinds of groups will all be there presenting or in panels. So yeah, it's like

03:38 It's incredible, but it can be a little bit like drinking from a fire hydrant because there's just so much going on packed into the Saturday and Sunday. And so, yeah, I think this idea of having the Monday that that we've got of having this community day that's just a space to whoa, like sit back and you know, it's not gonna be such big numbers because we have limited it to those who have got yes, survivor or first hand experience or who are the family and friends.

04:04 of those, you know, who also have their own first hand experience in that way. So it won't be a space so much for, yeah, the professionals or interested parties or media people or anything. It will be I feel like it's gonna be yeah, it'll be reduced numbers, it'll be like kind of more intimate, but it'll just be an important p place for us to connect with each other and to connect in with ourselves and process what the weekend has held. Yeah.

04:30 Yeah, that's great.

04:31 Yeah, I mean i I mean, most most people have been to a conference of one sort of another and and we all know how draining a conference itself can be, even if it's something that you're interested in. But throw into

04:42 Hmm.

04:43 the mix traumatic stories and triggering you know, triggering bits of news and whatnot, it can be it can be quite heavy. So that you know, that's where Noah and Ingrid come in.

04:54 Yeah I'd like to ask you first, Ingrid, you know, looking at at this through a trauma informed lens, what hap what you know, what happens to the nervous system when when they're processing high volumes of trauma content

05:03 system when when they're not

05:07 like this and and why is a decompression day needed?

05:11 Great question. I just want to speak to my first experience at Decult two years ago when I was deep

05:16 Yeah.

05:16 in the thick of my own research. and I hadn't had language for my own experience or what it was that I was now deconstructing within my own life. And I found myself thrown into, as Lindy says, drinking from a fire hydrant, here was.

05:33 Here was all of this language and everything that validated me but also opened me up to the vulnerabilities of holding the paradoxical reality of my own lived experience having been named and and and given form, but also me being there as a practitioner, going, I'm here because, you know, maybe there's more for other people that I'm working with.

05:58 and being torn between those two worlds within myself and and trying to figure out what was the key reason that I was there. And I recognized that for me personally, I had to put myself first and realize that I finally had a space that named what I had been through and put aside my role as a practitioner. I chose to do quite an intensive lot of training

06:23 So I did decult and then I did the two day intensive practitioner training afterwards. And then I went to a five day intensive with Jillie Jenkinson, which was b about practitioners with lived experience. and the culmination of that for me was rigorous and uncomfortable.

06:42 and vulnerability of vokine that I realized that there has to be some way where we actually decompress from some of the intensity. And so when I heard that this was something that Olive Leaf Network wanted to look into and do, I I was just so passionate about that. And it's one of the reasons that I'm in the role that I am with

07:06 decult this year is because I really care about the well being of survivors and holding their stories with care and that requires creating safe spaces where people can step away from the intensity. I definitely needed that at times through the last decult conference and it's something that I really care about. I think when we're activated we're not able to take in the level of information that maybe would be really helpful to us.

07:32 you

07:33 And there has

07:33 Mm.

07:33 to be times where we're regulating our nervous system because otherwise it is our nervous system driving our behaviors or our shutdown. it's activating us into fight or flight or freeze and all of those things can be really debilitating to some people. And I remember at times myself just thinking, gosh, I don't know if I can stay within

07:57 my own window of tolerance, my own capacity to hold all of this as I navigated my personal and professional positioning. So it's something that I really believe in for our well being is that we need to have a space where we can breathe.

08:11 Mm.

08:11 Mm.

08:13 Yeah, that's great. Thank you, Ingrid. No Noah, you you have a lot of experience in facilitating

08:18 you

08:19 these kind of things and you worked on you worked with the Olive Leaf Network on the Regain and Restore twenty twenty five and that was you know, that was I was lucky enough to to be a part of that experience and it was for me it was transformative. you know, it r it marked a big change in in my healing journey.

08:37 Hmm.

08:38 Tell us, Noah, you know, what what this decompression day means to you and around decult.

08:44 Well, I feel that Lindy and Ingrid have really explained it very well. And the only thing I would want to add is that a lot of us understand this. know that we have the knowledge that we get triggered and how hard it is to process. We have the experience of feeling the pressure or the exhaustion or…

09:08 All the emotions that can come up when we activate it. And it's a big difference between understanding the theory and then what do I actually do with that? And for that, we do need to pause. And this day is creating the place, actually facilitating the place and the space to do that, to put this into action, to put this into practice. wanted to add to Ingrid was talking about the trauma responses or fight, flight or freeze. And I wanted to add phone.

09:34 which is often understood as play nice. And I think in this context is pretended nothing happened. So maybe we do get very triggered in the cult because a lot of things come up because we held space and listened to just too many stories of other people. But maybe we got really validated and we feel this energy and, you know, aliveness.

09:58 And all of this doesn't necessarily meet our day-to-day life. In our day-to-day life, people might not know about our background. They might not know about our story. We do need this buffer of transition from such big experience back into whatever that we're doing. So

10:13 Yeah.

10:14 the intention is for that day is to give the space and within the space to give the opportunities and different variation of things, which I believe we'll talk about next, of how to do that.

10:25 Yeah, do you g

10:26 no, do you just wanna go into that and talk about

10:28 Peace.

10:29 outline the gentle somatic movement and and and breastbook sessions that

10:32 Yeah, so for my…

10:33 you're planning?

10:34 Yeah. So I'm glad that you said that you're planning because I'm actually not planning. My intention and I guess my way to facilitate is to see what is happening around and who are the people and what is the need. But the essence of it is to offer…

10:51 different variety of movement, just very easy, very simple, very gentle. It's not any acrobatic stuff or it's

10:59 Mm-hmm.

10:59 not practicing yoga, but ways to either move the body or pay attention to the breath or change a little bit the breath that allows us to regulate. And I believe that

11:13 just by turning our awareness to our body, just becoming a little bit more.

11:18 I guess conscious of what is actually happening in the body, two important things happen. One is we become present because we are actually paying attention to what is happening now. And the second is we have the opportunity to work with that, to soothe what needs to be soothed, to maybe energize what needs to be energized. The tools that I intend to offer are for you to then be able to do the work yourself. And it is in a real…

11:44 basic basic way of doing things so anybody can I hope you can vouch for this Jaya from the last experience that there's nothing complicated

11:51 Yeah, absolute absolutely. Absolutely. It's nothing complicated. I

11:55 I found it very beneficial. because it it's it you know, the having those holding spaces in you know, those spaces in between workshop sessions. I mean the Regain and Restorers again it was very compact, there was a lot of information, there was a lot of a lot of stuff to do and just those those moments where you

12:15 helped us ground our bodies was so beneficial for me.

12:18 Mm-hmm.

12:19 I really I really found the benefit of it.

12:21 Yeah, so I feel that if the, sorry, just if the day is a pause, then these moments are paused within the day. It's again, it's a micro of that, yeah.

12:28 Yeah. Yeah.

12:28 Yeah. That's

12:31 a that's a really good way of putting it, Noah. And I

12:33 That's okay.

12:34 love that also that we're gonna be yeah at the Multicultural Recreation Centre. It's in Hagley Park, which is such a beautiful location and the room itself has got big windows that look out to the park, right? And we will also be able to go out into the park as part of one of our spaces for offering reflection and and so yeah, that that's nice.

12:56 It even feels appropriate right now looking at you with those beautiful trees in your background. It's it's making me

13:00 Mmm.

13:01 Yeah.

13:02 think about that and relax as the yeah.

13:04 Ingrid, do you wanna talk to a bit about the the creative and activity stations that

13:10 Mm.

13:10 that you're you're planning?

13:12 I'm so excited

13:12 Yeah, sure.

13:13 for these.

13:14 I just want to go back to Noah's comment about the pause

13:19 Mm-hmm.

13:19 and I think it's such a such a key part of our integration and integration is being able to take our learning and meld it into how we move beyond our learning spaces and for me integration sometimes means doing nothing.

13:39 Which is very counterintuitive to what we're used to. I think in our culture and in our society, we're always moving, we're always going to our next activity. but the power of the pause is really intentional for taking that breath, taking that moment to just be with yourself in relationship, in community, but with no intention to fix change,

14:03 process everything. It's just a moment to allow things to be. And so that I think is where the creativity aspects come from is creativity is we are all creative beings and we're all created however we view that.

14:23 And what we've found within my research around creative expression is that you're allowing people again that space to come back to presence. And I think presence is a really important word for what this day is shaped around. it's all invitational. Every activity has been crafted for you to consider. Is this something that you need for yourself? Is this something that you want to be a part of?

14:50 So our creative stations are there as an invitation, but you may just want to observe and observation is equally part of being present. so we've got a creative station for Kent Sugi, which I think is so amazing. I ran one the other day with our woman and

15:08 There's this really shocking reality that you've got to break the plate to be able to put it back together. And for some people,

15:14 Yeah.

15:14 that's a really shocking thing, and it's quite a bit of a process. but as they mend and hold the plate very lovingly, very carefully, and they put it back together, and then they paint in the gold, and they're able to look at it as a reflection of their own journey.

15:33 It's been able to take our broken pieces and put them together and reflect on the this is what I think is so beautiful about creativity is it invites us to reflect on our own internal experience without necessarily having to speak what our experience is. and I love that in the in terms of when we've been in such high intensity spaces that have been activating, we want art.

15:59 Or creativity to be the vehicle of transformational change without ever necessarily having to speak what your story is. Because sometimes the bravest thing that people can do is show up in the room. Sometiming

16:13 Hm. Yeah.

16:14 out of your house can be the scariest part before you can even name what your story is. So these spaces are there to just invite you into that reflective space.

16:27 in which you might see aspects of yourself. We have things like haiku therapy, which is an invitation to sit and write a small haiku. Everything will have instructions. It's going to be really simple and easy to for people to engage. We've got a number of different stations. There's clay work, working with Tonguro, which is a beautiful instrument made of clay that you can blow into.

16:55 And again, it's coming back to the breath and our connection with the earth. So we use a lot of indigenous ways of thinking and engaging with in the arts. There is the reflective walk. So you might just want to be in nature and get out in Hagley Park and go for a walk and then come back and connect in with community. There's going to be creative writing spaces and there's going to be quiet zones.

17:20 You might just want to be in community, be in safe space, but not engage in any of the activities. And everything about that is totally acceptable, which I love. I love what it is that we've kind of crafted together as a team, all from our different walks of life, our different working environments and spaces, and we've come together to create such a day that I think, you know, if if that had been available to me two years ago.

17:47 I think that would have held me really nicely in an integrated space of

17:50 Yeah.

17:51 learning.

17:51 That's great. Thank you, Ingrid. that that's that's really well put. yeah, i I like I like the word invitation, you know. it it's it's up it's up to the individual whether they want to take part or not. And they can just come and hang out, you know, if they want and randomly talk to

18:07 Yeah.

18:07 people. on the day there will be a catered lunch, and you know, there's there's gonna be heaps of relaxed community connection time.

18:15 for me I'd I I really want to emphasize the community aspect of it because, you know, one of the one of the things as you know is is you know, coming out of a cult is that you you feel alone, you feel like you're the only one, you don't know anyone else that's you know, you might not want to know anyone else that's come out of your cult, your high gr high demand group.

18:36 you might not know others, but when you come together, you you know, you see all of these other people who have shared similar experiences. and it's it's I think it's an opportunity to create create a community of of survivors and support each other. so I'm I'm looking forward to seeing what kind of connections are made on the day. you know more more in a

18:59 social sense rather than a professional sense.

19:02 I just wanted to

19:02 Yeah.

19:03 to ask you know what kind of safety nets are in place on the day, you know, including presence of you and there will be some

19:13 uncult support volunteers available if anyone needs a break or feels overwhelmed, there will be people there that that can that you can talk to. Yeah. Can we talk a little bit about

19:23 Yeah.

19:24 that?

19:24 When actually, when you were speaking, Jaya, what came to me was around that, around that safety and the sense of community in a way that we intend to create a space that there is an understanding and acceptance of we are not going to trauma dump. It's not a place of competition or had had the

19:44 Place of competition at high.

19:46 We intend to create a container where there is an understanding that we don't trauma dump, we don't compete among ourselves. If I share something, it's okay to just be heard. I know it's safe to just be heard. And I will have the commitment of the other participants to not try to fix me, to not try to explain to me and to not then put on me their…

20:10 their story and Ingrid and I have spoken about making that a part of the co-papa of safety beyond of course confidentiality. So it is that sense of community that one can be.

20:25 that one can still have their own space among others. And I think, yeah, that is the intention, at least from the way I see it.

20:35 And Lindy, can you help clarify us who who this is for

20:39 Yeah, sure. Yeah. So it is for people who have got some lived experience, who have been at decult. and and when I say lived experience, it could be that it's, you know, primarily been your experience as in you were born and raised in a group and have left, or you have been recruited at some point in your life into a group that was yeah, high control and and had a had an had a negative impact on you. But

21:05 I I very much want to affirm that like family members or s or friends or close like supporters or loved ones, if someone in your life has been really impacted and it's really impacted you by turn or your family, you are so welcome too, because I think that's really important. yeah, speaking with someone the other day who's actually supports people coming out of drug and alcohol addiction and we were talking about

21:31 how there's similarities sometimes with things like that. Like obviously a lot of focuses on the person with the addiction and their recovery, but just also the fact that often family members, or whether it's flatmates or friends, or whoever the close people are around that person who's primarily impacted, there's those impacts go around and these ripple circles onto the onto the family or the or the loved ones, or the, you know, the partners or whatever it might be. You know, it has a huge impact on the people around you. And

22:00 that that can totally often carry its own trauma or vicarious trauma as well. And so I definitely want to affirm that, you know, if that's you, then you will you are welcome to to this day. And you will also very much find yeah a safe place and a and a place to connect with others as little or much as you like, as Noah said, but this space to engage with these creative processes and to yeah, decompress and and pause as well. So yeah, does that does that make sense?

22:28 Yeah,

22:28 yeah. And I I I

22:29 Mm.

22:29 think it's also we should say that, you know, not everyone can afford to attend D cult and if

22:35 Mm.

22:35 you are local to Christchurch, or even if you want to travel to Christchurch for the day, if you are a survivor, please get in touch and and we'll see

22:44 Mm.

22:44 if we can accommodate you. We can't accommodate everyone, but you know if you if you feel like you need to come with a support person

22:53 You know, talk to us. Yeah, that should be fine.

22:54 Mm. Yeah.

22:56 we know that not everyone wants to venture out alone. and this is about you know, this isn't for decult mem decult attendees only. It it it's just a sort of useful mechanism to have it now. We do want to include others. So,

23:11 Mm.

23:12 yeah, just just get in touch with with you, Lindy, is that all right? Good you you're handling the lit registrations.

23:16 Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's

23:19 yeah, you can look at the humanitics listing if you yeah, want a recap of this stuff or to email my emails on the humanitics listing or of course you can get in touch with Jai as well through Unspult, Unspun or UNCULT. And

23:31 Mm.

23:31 yeah, I know you've got, you know, lots of connections there in Christchurch 'cause obviously this is in Christchurch, which is where UnCult is. I know you've got lots of connections with former members in the like Christchurch or wider Christchurch region as well. So yeah.

23:44 The the invitation is yeah, get in touch and we'll definitely do what we can. I think the registration is really important just from a catering perspective. We're really looking forward to treating you all to a delicious lunch. but catering companies do need to know, like, you know, ideally two weeks out or whatever so they can order their ingredients. So do pop a registration in if you think you yeah would like to come to help us to plan that and the activities as well for Ingrid because we'll be bringing

24:11 Yeah, I'm I'm excited about all those things, the clay and the kintsugi, all that kind of thing. but to help us with our planning, really appreciate those regios getting in so we know the kind of numbers that we're working with.

24:23 Yeah, the the link to the registration will be in the in in the show notes. you can search for us on Humanitix. Also look out for us on the decult newsletter. We'll be I think will be in the next one. Hopefully this this podcast will be sent out on other other podcasts. We're gonna try and chill that out.

24:43 Mm-hmm.

24:44 yeah, so

24:46 Before we wrap up, I think we've covered most stuff. Is is there anything anything that you guys want to say that that we haven't said already?

24:54 thanks, Jaya. Yeah, I think I do want to affirm just how bizarre it is, in a wonderful way to how bizarre it was in a wonderful way at decult. I've never experienced something like this where like many of us spend most of our lives like hiding the fact that we were in a cult, or we're like a little bit to varying degrees, like a bit embarrassed about it, or like or it's just, you know, it's just

25:18 Awkward. You don't lead with it. And when you're you're like meeting people or friendship circles or whatever, like I guess any any experience that's been a bit traumatic or hard or a lot traumatic and hard, you know, you don't wear it on your sleeve usually. you know, you you carry it deep inside because it is it's it's sensitive and and you also don't know how others might yeah judge it or it or you're just like, you know, I'm talking about normal settings, you know, like if I, you know,

25:46 I don't know, attend some social event or get invited to a party or something or with the other parents at school pick up or whatever, you know. You just don't say this thing of you don't you don't lead with this thing of like I'm in this I was in this high control group and it really screwed up my life, you know, it it it

26:02 And you you you do that to kind of protect yourself, but by the same token it can make you feel like you're carrying this isolated, this isolating, lonely place inside of you where others just don't know this thing that, you know, actually has left you with really deep scars and marks that you carry around with you in your daily life. And so I'm sorry, that was a very wordy way to say how bizarre it was at D. Cull because for the first time in my life.

26:30 And others shared this as well. You know, you'd like rock up to a group of people or find yourself sharing lunch at with a group of people and like instead of it being this weird thing, instead it was one of the first things you led with, you'd be like, So, you know, what are you doing here? Or what brought you here? And then people would like launch straight away into like, Wow, you know, I left the two by twos or wow, I was I was part of

26:53 you know, International School of Temple Arts, the the sex kind of

26:57 Mm-hmm.

26:58 this the sex culty kind of group or whatever it was, people would just like swing straight out with this thing of like, Yeah, or or it could have been, you know, there were also conversations for that I had of people were like, Well, I'm a I'm a school teacher and I've got I just keep having these families who are

27:16 involved with X, Y, Z and I'm and I see the impact on the kids. And anyway, it was just weird because it was like instead of it being this hidden thing that you never brought up because it's awkward and you don't know how to, it was just like, bang, here it is on the table. No judgment. This is my experience. This is why I'm here. This is the group that has impacted me professionally or personally. And so straight away, you know, you could be like, yeah, well I I grew up here or I had this impact. And

27:43 So it was just so wonderful because it was like no judgment, no secret, no taboo, no isolating loneliness of this weird piece of your history. It was just there, could be talked about, and there's often also some immediate overlap as well of just this shared mutual understanding. everyone's story has its unique aspects, and I think it's we have to be really careful not to assume we know what others' story was, even if

28:09 both were high control Christian groups, for example, there's still often differences. So we do have to be careful not to assume. But also, wow, the overlap is unreal. The overlap was absolutely unreal right across the spectrum of groups, right? you know, whatever

28:24 Mm. Yeah.

28:25 the religious or non-religious beliefs around them, it's all those, wow, those dynamics of group coercive control are there. And yeah, so that was like

28:36 really powerful and really bizarre and I'm excited for that again this decult but I think particularly for this Monday, because all of us there will have that first hand lived experience in one way or another. I think there's just gonna be that beautiful solidarity there of

28:53 Yeah.

28:54 yeah, we're not alone. Look at all these people, you know. It'll be beautiful. Yeah.

28:59 That's great, Lindy. Thank you for sharing that. Any last thoughts from you, Noah?

29:03 No, actually I was going to ask Ingrid because I feel when I was trying to describe the idea of safety and support I tripped over my words. So I was wondering if you wanted to add something.

29:17 Ang and great?

29:17 No, I thought you did a great

29:18 job. thank you so much. I do I do think it's important to add that there may be people who may not have left their communities as of yet. They may be questioning, they may not have potentially recognized that that's what they're in, but they're questioning. And this might be a great opportunity to be an environment where we can hold

29:41 those spaces safely. And I I I think when we talk about safety, it it's it's having a safe container where you can show up and be your most authentic self. and sometimes that means being in a room full of people who have similar experiences. But I want to acknowledge that for some people

30:01 They're still connected within faith, especially I want to say faith communities, where they're torn between worlds. And I think that's something to be really mindful of. That we're not here to to define which Christian groups are cults and which ones aren't. We're not here to I think that's a really important safety aspect of all of this is that you can still have your

30:26 Held beliefs, or you may still be in a process of deconstruction, and there's no right or wrong within all of this. We're all on a journey of exploration and figuring it out. And I think safety means respecting each other's personhood and our differences and the diversities that bring us together. So, yes, we may have some similarities, but we may also have big differences that I think need to be held with care and respect.

30:53 And and the way that I think Noah and I talked about wanting to facilitate this space was to acknowledge that, yeah, within this space we we want to create openness, but it's not a space where we're just gonna pour out our hearts and you know, sing cum baya because it's not that simple. I

31:09 Yeah, yeah.

31:10 think it's really important that the pause is is an acknowledgement that paradoxical differences

31:17 or the both and, you know, there can be huge complexities and huge similarities all in one space and we want to hold that with care and consideration of our differences, that it's not our differences that that stop us from being in community together.

31:34 Mm.

31:35 Fantastic. Really well said.

31:37 Yeah. And I wanted to add one more thing that again, it's like if that, if the day is a pause and some of the offerings that we provide are pauses within that, the idea, the way I see it is a day to self-regulate within core regulating. So just being in a group doesn't

31:57 Mm.

31:58 mean that we have to have intensive one-on-ones. I can do my own thing and I regulate

32:01 Yeah.

32:03 my nervous system internally.

32:05 But just being next to you is supporting me in my regulation. So it's

32:08 Mm.

32:09 like a one in the other.

32:10 One hundred percent.

32:11 Yeah.

32:12 Yeah.

32:12 That's

32:12 And

32:12 really beautiful way of putting that of self regulating within co regulating. Yeah. And I do think that's important. Yeah, that's so

32:14 that's a that's yeah, it's really well put. I mean it

32:19 important because we do all have to go back to our own worlds, go back to our own workplaces, our own spaces and responsibilities. And so yeah, feeling r ready and strong enough to go back, most of us as individuals, back across the back across New Zealand, Australia, wherever we've come from, around the world, but it

32:38 But yeah, to do it knowing that in the big picture we're not alone. Yeah.

32:42 Yes.

32:42 And I think that

32:42 Yeah, I think

32:43 follows up with the thought that each person is a hero in their own story. We're not here to fix or save anyone from their experience. We're here to facilitate a space in which individuals can feel empowered to step back into their realities, whatever that looks like,

33:01 Mm.

33:01 with maybe some new learning, some new skills, some ways of recognising that.

33:07 self-regulation and co-regulation can happen in in the safety of community, but it can also happen in the solidarity of yourself. That it's so important that yes, you can be in community on this day, but you can also have your own personal experience that's unique to you. And that's not prescriptive. We're not here to tell you how to do it. We're here to hold a space in which you can explore what things might be helpful to you.

33:35 and

33:35 Mm-hmm.

33:36 what takeaways could be beneficial for you as you go back into your real life and your normal day activities.

33:44 Yeah, yeah. That's great. in a in uncult in the support group, which is a slightly different environment. but we do we do have sort of core values of mutual respect, no crosstalk, no pressure, and avoid sort of competitive war storytelling, you know.

34:02 Mm-hmm.

34:04 and and I think actually

34:07 in this environment there's more opportunity to to talk about those things but I think it's remember to remember to respect the the other person's space. They they may not feel comfortable talking about their story yet. So I think

34:23 Mm.

34:23 it's it's always important to you know not you know everyone wants to hold mutual respect but also remember consent.

34:32 you know

34:32 Mm.

34:33 that that someone might not want your advice, they might not want to tell their story, you know, and so

34:39 Yeah.

34:39 it's it's important to, you know, just hold that in mind, you know, when when we're approaching people,

34:44 Mm. Mm.

34:47 everyone's gonna have different levels of engagement.

34:49 Mm.

34:51 and I think, you know, every but I th I you know all of this will be reminded on the day and

34:56 Yeah.

34:57 you know, we'll be coaching and watching

34:59 Mm.

34:59 out for every everyone's well being. But

35:02 Mm.

35:02 yeah, that's that's really great. I think we've covered everything. Is there anything that we've left out anyone wants to bring up before we wrap up this session?

35:13 I'd just love to say that it has been so beautiful to work with you all, even in our different spaces. the core values that remain in the integrity of what it is that we're doing, it's such an honouring thing to feel like our contribution that we can bring, the things that are important to us.

35:33 get held with the same care and respect. And I've just really loved that. And I think that when we can do that for each other, we have the ability to then share that out to our wider community. And I think, you

35:45 Mm-hmm.

35:46 know, I'd like to finish with we are better together. And when we've come from high control environments where we haven't experienced safety in community, recreating an environment where safety can be experienced in a new way.

36:01 is one of the greatest gifts I think we can give back to each other.

36:05 Mm-hmm.

36:05 yeah. So thank

36:07 That's great.

36:07 you for gifting that to me too.

36:09 Thank you. Thanks everyone for coming.

36:12 Yeah.

36:12 this is great. You got something, Lindy?

36:15 Yeah, I do. And sorry if I interrupted there. I was just gonna

36:17 No, go go for it, go for it.

36:18 go off what what Ingrid said. over the last year or two I've been listening to a few more podcasts with Judith Herman and and reading her work and I really want to recommend her to our listeners if you haven't engaged with her work. you know, if you're not a reader, just like search her under a podcast and listen to her. But she's like an expert in trauma recovery. And what I find really fascinating about

36:41 her is that she's got a big emphasis on the fact that after experiencing psychological or physical trauma, but particularly psychological trauma that and and interpersonal and in relationships that but that a key part of a very, very crucial part of healing and and re-establishing psychological safety within yourself is through establishing and experiencing safe and supportive relationships and

37:06 Yeah, I just think that's so important. And I think spaces like this day, even though it's a one off, one day thing, and some of us, you know, may go back to our lives and not cross paths with each other again for months or years or ever, but even just this experience when we've come from this place of of experiencing trauma and psychological damage in groups, you know, the temptation can be, my God, I'm never gonna join another group again, I'm never gonna

37:32 trust anybody ever again. I'm never gonna even risk that. But yeah, her work really and her research just shows time and time again that the opposite is true. You know, that that safety and healing is not found in further isolating ourselves or cutting ourselves off from community and connection with others. Instead it is found through experiencing genuine, safe, trusted, trustworthy

37:56 authentic spaces and each time we do that it's like we we bring in layers of healing onto that part of us that that didn't experience that. So yeah, recommend her work to anybody because not only will it encourage you about the power and importance of a day like this, but it will give you more courage and strength to, as you go, you know, continue on your own recovery journeys to keep seeking out and taking those steps towards experiencing

38:22 positive community and connection with others wherever you are.

38:25 That's great. Thank you for that recommendation. What was the name again? Just one more time. Judith Herman. Right. Okay. That's great.

38:28 Judith Judith Herman. Judith Herman, yeah. She's I I

38:33 think she's, you know, getting on now. She's been doing it for a few decades, but she's just highly experienced and a couple of key books, especially trauma and recovery is is her main one and then she's got another one after that. I think the name's just flown out of my head. But yeah, you guys you guys can our listeners can Google it. Yeah.

38:50 All right. Well I'll just thank everyone now for coming for turning up and er everyone's input and for the time and ign and acknowledging all of our retrospective groups with with who are helping out. This is really great. I'm very excited for the day and can't work we can't wait to be working with you all. That's great.

39:09 Yeah. Thank you, Jaya. think it's really helpful that you have created this space for us to explain what is the intention and the layout of the day, because I don't know how, what lands for people when they hear Survivors Day. So maybe that was really helpful. Thank you.

39:23 Yeah, exactly. Okay,

39:26 great. Thank you, Noah. All right.

39:28 Really looking forward

39:29 to seeing you all on on the Monday.

39:31 Me too.

39:32 It's not long to go now. yeah, it'll be really special.

39:33 No, not long to go.

39:36 Great. Cheers everyone.

39:37 Take care.

39:38 Kakita. See ya.

39:38 Ka kite!

00:41 Welcome back to Unspun. This is part two of our conversation with Bec’s. If you haven’t listened to part one yet, we’d really recommend starting there. Bec’s shares her story of becoming involved in MISA, what life was like inside the cult, and what eventually led her to leave. It gives important context for the conversations we’re about to have.

01:04 They were exploring some of the deeper issues that came out of Bec’s story. We’re talking about connection, desire, sexuality, consent, and what it looks like to reclaim your relationship with yourself after living in a high-control environment. While these topics have been shaped by Bec’s experiences, they’re relevant to many people, and we hope you find something meaningful in the conversation wherever you are in the journey.

01:32 Welcome back, Bec. Awesome to have you here.

01:35 Thanks.

01:37 I’m really excited to continue the conversation because this is talking about my work.

01:41 Yeah, absolutely. Last episode we heard your story. Today I’d love to explore some of the ideas that your experience has made you think deeply about. And I know you think deeply, so I’m excited about that. One thing we’ve spoken about is the idea that control doesn’t just happen in your mind. It happens in the body. What does that mean to you?

02:04 Well, it depends what we mean when we talk about mind and body, that these aspects. There’s a lot going on inside a physical system that isn’t just these two categories. Mostly when people think about their mind, they’re talking about the thoughts that they can see. And we only really see a fraction of our own thoughts. There’s a lot of things that are thoughts we have that we could tune into, but they’re just the water we’re in. You don’t even notice them because you’re thinking those things all the time. And then there’s the thoughts that we think on the surface: do this, do that, do this, and they’re what we think about the mind.

02:40 Beyond that, behind that, beneath that, there’s a whole system taking in a lot of data and reaching a conclusion and a decision about behavior that will never be represented in the front mind, all of the decision trees that come to that.

02:56 And so control happens in the way it subverts our signalling system between the data that we take in and our decision making on the outward side.

03:08 Mm.

03:09 So in a system that’s aligned with its authentic self, if we can use Jillie Jenkinson’s term, there’s a sense that your body and mind are mostly aligned, like, I felt to do it, I did this, I made this decision.

03:24 Tuned. Yeah.

03:27 However, there’s the experience with people inside cultic organizations that take an action without having a built process of decision making behind that. So there’s an inner sense of dissonance or confusion and then confabulation, where there’s a reason created by the story mind, the front mind, the narrator, about why that behavior was taken without an inner decision tree. And yet there’s no decision tree. It doesn’t match value systems, it doesn’t match physical experience, it doesn’t match the decision made in the body. And there’s kind of a disconnect there between the signalling process and the…

04:02 Yeah.

04:02 Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. How do controlling systems disconnect people from their bodies? Do you think? What’s the main kind of activator for that?

04:18 Well, we’re all really aware of how this happens when we tell each other, don’t worry, or don’t be scared, or don’t this, or don’t that. We’re controlling our natural inner responses to a situation, which might be concern about something. And there’s a number of those that are just normal socialized things where if you feel icky about something, you know, someone’s smelly because they smoke and you’re a kid and you’re told, go give them a hug, or some such thing. So you’re overriding that.

04:49 There’s an amazing book, The Gift of Fear by Gavin de Becker, which—it’s a fantastic book.

04:57 And he talks about how we have all of these data points. His whole argument is that people can save themselves from violence by listening to the inner part of them that knows before it can come out with a cohesive narrative. And overriding that what might seem to be a bizarre intuition or a weird or a surprising new direction of behavior—well, why wouldn’t I trust them? Why wouldn’t I let them in? Like, overriding that gets people into trouble, and saving yourself from violence is listening to yourself.

05:30 Really answering your question. You asked how. And so first, I wanted to shape what that connection looks like in action. But then the how is our culture of the organization reframes, reshapes, and swaps out our inner value systems for its own value system.

05:50 So our coercive organizations, they teach you that your signal is the enemy, that your doubt is getting in the way of some higher thing. It teaches you that doubt is sin or questioning the leader is absurd because they’re so advanced. And so you learn to ignore your inner signalling and look externally for what to do.

06:07 And even though the inner signals can be very, very loud with panic attacks, depression, tears, nightmares, all kinds of many kinds of symptoms can come up. You just—you’re taught so powerfully to look outside that that’s what you start doing. And that’s that process of inserting introjects, a whole cultic framework into you that subdues and replaces your own value system, your own identity.

06:42 I think part of the process too is when they either restrict your food or tell you how to eat, but then also keep you so busy you’re exhausted and tired, so you’re way more vulnerable to letting that stuff come in. You’re not so resilient to it as well.

07:01 Yeah, there’s a lot of systems used and each individual will respond to one thing or another. So many, many different tactics of reconditioning someone’s thoughts and behavior are used at the same time. They’re taken from their home environment and their family and their friends. You know, we’re put in unusual situations, like a house in the middle of France or in the countryside somewhere. You’re given different tasks, things that you’re used to, so you’re in a completely unknown environment doing something completely new. Therefore, you’re already conditioned to look for support in a new environment, in a new situation, with a new task, so you’re already going to be taking in data and putting someone above you because you don’t know where you are and what you’re doing and how to behave. And then that’s a pathway to take in a whole culture inside.

08:07 You know, someone is taking care of that. Don’t worry, take care of your own business. Just practice and that will resolve in yourself. So it’s just work harder. Just be focused on what we’re trying to insert and the solution will come for whatever problem you have. Whether it’s relationship or situational or physiological, there’s only one answer: just do us.

08:30 Destabilized that you’re much easier to insert all of that stuff.

08:40 People just don’t realise. I didn’t realise how vulnerable I really am to socialization. I’m a really independent person who’s quite intellectual about things and quite organized and particular. I wouldn’t have thought that I could be heavily influenced, but this is just how any normally socialized person who has a number of friends who gets along in a culture does so because we take in a culture, because we can. If you can be socially integrated, then you can be manipulated because that’s what social integration is. It’s just using the things we normally use in society to get along with people, have friends, blend in, you know, and it’s just—we treat this cultic mind control as some kind of extraordinary power or something unusual. But it isn’t. In the same way as intuition isn’t something mystical or far-reaching that we can’t understand. It’s the body’s wisdom and it’s right there available to us all the time. That’s why everyone’s rabbiting on about being present, being here, listening to yourself.

09:54 Having said that though, people can come out of cults—many people come out of cults unable to know what they feel. At that point of coming out, there’s a whole period where you come out of the cults, this kind of in-between land where you’ve rejected the cultic dogma or socialized structure, but you don’t have your own yet. And then in that period you don’t know what you feel or what you want. You don’t have points for that. It hasn’t gone. It isn’t disappeared. It’s in there. It just takes time to notice the signals again and value them. I’m hungry, I’m thirsty, I’m tired. Even on that basic level, those things become very quiet. The very primary needs that you wouldn’t think someone could ignore.

10:49 I love your point before too about how, I mean, we’re humans and we’re social beings. So we’re designed to kind of assimilate and connect. And I guess in a cultic environment, we just start naturally doing that because of the way we are, I guess.

11:08 It’s not unique to certain people. It’s unique to our species, I guess. Why is reconnecting to our bodies such an important part of recovery, do you think?

11:21 I think all my experiences in MISA and from what I’ve read about other coercive organizations is you work past exhaustion, past sleep deprivation, past impossible standards with no positive feedback, and quite extreme isolation and attacks and accusations everywhere. And you create gratitude for this void of positive experience and it becomes a falsified—there’s a lot of falsified world.

11:53 And yet, so there’s this huge loss and in order to feel genuinely good about anything—yourself, another, the moment that you’re in, what you’re doing in life—it has to come from within. It has to be something that’s arising naturally inside. So apart from making good choices for yourself, your partner, your children, your community environment, your finances, your retirement—apart from being able to make good choices for yourself and needing to evaluate situations for how they will impact you and those that you love, that’s important for reconnecting to yourself.

12:33 And if you continue to keep the values of an organization that considers you worth less than they are, then you will spend a lifetime considering yourself expendable and other things of worth. And so reconnecting with yourself to value your own existence and just for its own sake—I exist and therefore I am of value—that’s important. But also to feel good, to feel happy, to feel not just to feel that I exist and therefore I have a right to exist, but to feel genuinely pleased with something you have done, to receive praise for who you are and what comes from you naturally rather than some overlaid, falsified, forced production of behaviours and actions through exhaustion and sleep deprivation and fear. That would be a good life, like a life that’s worth having.

13:38 Definitely. It’s like you really want to be able to feel that sense of contentment and part of that is kind of being in your body or connected with your interior world.

13:52 Connected, yeah, with your interior world, the moment. Then there’s just—and then words get really tricky here because every word I use has been co-opted by every spiritual tradition and then it becomes a trigger fest for somebody. And yet…

14:10 And yet, if all the people I heard only asked me to do things for them and the praise was thin on the ground, then I never really hear, well done. I never really hear, you achieved something right now, unless I can slow down enough to see what’s actually difficult for me and what I have overcome. And then through seeing what is hard for me specifically and what I have overcome through reintegrating with the world after a cultic experience, then through that I can say, through knowing myself, I can say, yeah, that was hard, well done.

14:53 Yeah, and that’s the—to give myself that, then I can receive that from somebody else. Otherwise, it’s a lot of years. It’s a lot of—it’s a lot of years till the end, always believing the worthlessness is the true.

15:13 Well, it’s not a life. It’s just not a life because the premise is that my life is worthless. That’s not a life. A life is believing this has value somehow.

15:29 I’d love to kind of move on to the subject of desire because I just think it’s so topical for people coming out of cultic environments in terms of their ability to absolutely squash it, and it’s often considered evil and wrong. And so, yeah, I’d love to hear your perspective around that. Why do you think so many controlling systems are concerned with people desire?

15:54 I love this topic because desire is right in the center of trauma therapy. It’s like somehow there’s nothing new in the world and yet the cutting edge of trauma therapy is right here in these questions around desire: what makes us want something, how we respond to it, what we’re doing there.

16:16 And in that is why cults want desire. It’s how you control people. It’s the engine for an entire life: I want, I need, and then I bring all my focus, energy, intelligence, my kids, my family, my community, everyone on board to that track.

16:36 I think it’s worthwhile to sail around the world. I desire to be biking or hiking or growing flowers or knowing herbs or painting pictures, beautiful paintings. And that’s what we bring our energy to. So all cultic organizations are fascinated with desire because as soon as they know what you want and need, then it’s a power play. It’s like, yes, I will give you that, whatever it is, it’s promised. And then in the act of offering it is the swap for their own needs. You become the producer of their porn or their engine for building things like in MISA. My experience is that it doesn’t matter what is wanted; it’s swapped out for the organization’s structural requirements, and the person and their individual wants and desires are made invisible and not just swapped out or usurped, but actually completely devalued systematically and entirely because that engine is the thing that will break down a cultic organization. You can’t have people wanting something other than what they have. They have to want the pittance that they have.

17:57 Yeah, I think that’s such a ploy in some ways. It’s like, I mean, often in my experience, or what I missed when I left was this kind of direction in life: this is how to live. If you follow this, then this and this will happen. And for me it was like, well, I don’t really need to think about it that much. I just do what I’m supposed to do for God’s will, whatever that was. And the swap is that you squash everything that you want.

18:32 There’s a perfection to being in a cult where you’re offered a very clean, complete packet that says you will cleanly and completely get exactly what you want if you just simply sacrifice all the other things because they’re in fact everything. Sacrifice everything because it’s all getting in the way. I’ll give you what you want, just trust me, and then do all these things that are actually taking you in some entirely different direction. But the certainty is nice.

19:02 What I found fascinating in this model I’m studying is that all the cults have similar—it’s a similar swap and value system that they’re doing. So the organization is controlling what you wear, whether you’re monogamous or polyamorous, how you educate your children, how many children or if you even have children. In MISA it was no children; other organizations it’s many children. Where your money goes, usually to the organization.

19:37 Yeah, what kind of conditions you live in and are acceptable. They’re controlling exactly the same things, and all of these things are keeping people busy, controlling their desires. So, you want, I want to eat only eggs, or I want to have many lovers because it brings me closer to God. And this is the point about desire that I found really interesting here. Is that there’s desire as the cult educates you to have—the coercive mesh of I want to be polyamorous, I want to eat only this food, I want to wear clothes that go from my neck to the ground or I want to wear like itty-bitty micro minis—that looks like a desire but actually there’s a deeper desire, something under that, and that’s what drove people to the organization in the first place.

20:31 And it’s something more profound: to be closer to God, to be filled with divinity, grace, peace, to bring peace to the world, to bring love to the community. It’s beautiful value systems. And that thing, it doesn’t go away. It’s just been redirected. Like the light of that want and that desire has shone the engine or pointed like an arrow, the individual’s engine into producing for the coercive group. And yet you can remove that wire between those things and then find what lies underneath in yourself: actually, my desire is to connect to people. I do love people and I do want to share, feel fully loving and loved in my life.

21:21 And that’s always underneath, and that thing, that innocence, that innocence of just the longing to connect and to love and be loved and make things better, that’s still in there.

21:34 How does shame and desire become connected? I’m interested in this question.

21:42 Yeah, I think I’m just gonna go back a bit into desire and then go into shame. So, it’s because desire—so you’ve got your inner desire, you want to maybe be loved or share love, and it’s the same needle but it’s a different map. They put you on this different map of the ways that you should behave. And so disentangling yourself from their map and taking from that your inner desires is part of the process of recovery.

22:18 And part of that is facing the things that you did for the organization. That’s an uncomfortable process. You may have given a lot of money away. You may have done sexual things that are hard to remember. You may have lost…

22:35 Or treated your children poorly. Yeah, it’s awful.

22:38 You may have lost family members. Yeah. And so understanding that, but facing this and what was consented and what was coerced, is essential. Otherwise the rest of your life you’re defending the value system of people that believed that your life is worth less than theirs.

23:01 So how is shame and desire connected? So here we have in these coercive situations, you’re pushed, forced, coerced, controlled, manipulated into behaving in such a way that you hold such a huge burden of disentanglement of shame.

23:51 Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that was really hard for me. You know, I never consented to those things. I was coerced into them, and yet it’s still a burden of shame that I carry. And yet facing that and recognizing making mistakes is human, that being confused and going one way and then another is part of a normal human life. That’s really digestible and it’s a huge important step to believe that I’m worth something.

24:27 And this organization, that hierarchy sustaining their belief system, is not worth the rest of my life protecting that sense of shame.

24:38 So your question was about how is shame and desire linked, and so the organizations, they notice your desire and offer it back: we give you this love, connection to God, grace, pleasure, all of it, it’s yours. And then they say this part of your life you should be ashamed of, and it’s all of those things that actually bring you your desires to yourself. You should be ashamed of wanting anything outside this organization. You should be ashamed of a normal desire to have a partnership we don’t approve of. You should be ashamed of wanting or not wanting children. And so there’s a huge burden of shame around anything you really want. So it becomes very scary to reconnect with your own desires because they’re shaped as the demons or they’re shaped as the devils or they’re shaped there for so long as what is totally against what’s your inner truth and what’s your direction of purity or to get the thing that you wanted. So it’s really confusing and scary to say, hang on a minute, that’s actually the thing that gets me the thing that I want in the first place. Like just, you know, resting when I need rest, for example.

26:02 Yeah, especially for me, the whole purity culture thing. I was a really curious teenager and I wanted to explore stuff and I did, but the shame that came with that was huge. And I thought, you know, I’ve ruined my life now. That’s it. I’m done.

26:20 So shame isn’t there to kill the desires, it just steers them. So it just steers your desire for human connection away from a human connection that feels natural in a way that feels good and into something that serves the greater group. And each organization has its own particular way of doing that, yet the kind of map is the same. And the work is separating that and working out which shames are yours and which are theirs.

27:06 And a large part of that is because I wasn’t encouraged to by this organization. I was encouraged to spend my time working for this organization and supporting them instead of going to see my mother. And it was directly said that you will do more good, you will bring more God to her than if you went to see her. And I thought, yeah, you’re probably right. And I have a profound guilt…

27:31 Because she is no longer alive, and maybe I had a profound guilt. I don’t now, but I had a profound guilt for a long time that I could never—there were conversations that I have not had that I don’t have the opportunity to have. And yeah, and just facing that, there’s no getting that time back.

27:51 Yeah, exactly. I just wanted to move on to compliance versus consent. I have a wee discussion about that. What do you believe the differences between compliance and consent?

28:06 Is a yes without feeling it through your whole being, like through a bodily decision process that came there. Consent is that same yes, might be the same action, might be the same answer, but it’s just that you have it clearly inside you, came to it of your own volition. And for that you need to be inside your window of tolerance. You need to be relaxed enough. Lifton called confession an act of symbolic self-surrender.

28:41 And so that’s surrendering to another so that you simply give everything up to somebody else. But consent or disclosure, consenting information or disclosure, is a different thing. You’re yourself choosing to tell that other person with the understood risks involved in that conversation.

29:02 And in that way you consent to disclose. And so compliance versus consent, it’s actually quite difficult to word it, but somewhere in there there’s something you know in your body and there isn’t—there could be confusion. You can still be confused and not be absolutely sure. Sureness, absoluteness, it only comes with that dogmatic cultic framework. You can be sure of doing something, but that’s a different kind of sureness to the sureness of a cult, which is like absolute, world-shattering sureness, where sureness in yourself is, I’m sure I’m choosing this.

29:43 Yeah, and I think to your point, it’s kind of like consent feels like it comes from an authentic place that’s you, your voice, your agency. Compliance is kind of like, it’s not your voice, it’s the voice that is being fed to you.

30:02 But how does an ex-member know that? And in the case of when you’re inside an organization like that, there’s so much of the organization’s words inside you that your experience is—it’s the same sound. It’s their voice speaking through you. I’m devoted. Devoted to the cause. Again, back to desire. So it is tricky for the person to know the difference at various points, but the body—it knows. And there is that flinch in the body that you can find that says, I’m not aligned.

30:42 I don’t believe myself right now. I don’t even believe them right now. I’m just doing it because…

30:47 It would be a hassle not to. And we’ve all done that in many areas of life. Just this kind of an organization or this kind of a relational setup, it’s the normal to always be doing that. It’s not just one Tuesday afternoon.

31:01 I think that’s like, it ties into decision making a lot. Like that was one of my biggest challenges and it’s still really difficult for me today to make decisions. But it ties into the whole, how do I know the decision I’m making is right for me? Because I’ve been taught that making a wrong decision is sinful and bad and mistakes you get punished for in this kind of karmic sense. So…

31:34 Yeah, so how do you do that? And when I first came out of my cult, I couldn’t make my own decisions. I’d still ring my family three times a day and talk to all my friends and do this and do that. And then I’d make this tentative decision being terrified that I’ve done the wrong one. I certainly don’t do that today, but I still find it tricky.

31:58 Yeah, and here we’re talking about a few different things. Under enough threat the frontal lobes shut down and coherent speech becomes impossible and decision making becomes impossible. So there’s this kind of hypoarousal and interiorization and decisions are impossible.

32:18 So even though you may look entirely the same on the outside, the data is scrambled, the communication is scrambled, and then from that point making a decision becomes impossible. So if anything looks like a cultic situation, this can trigger this kind of numbness, compliance, like the mouth is paralyzed or just saying words that aren’t making sense, not—or not choosing but submitting. And also if a situation is a reminder of a cultic experience, there’s or any kind of power interaction, for example, there’s this knowing that so many experiences you just had to submit, so you might as well just submit now. So it feels right to just say yes instead of…

33:06 It feels right to have any kind of friction or tension or do anything different. It feels right to do what somebody else said. And so there’s a difference between feeling right, feeling familiar, and feeling into what you want, need and what nourishes you. And as I mentioned before, it can be a long time before one learns what it is that is missing in terms of supporting your own system as an ecology.

33:34 How do we help people reconnect with their authentic choice, do you think? That’s a whole podcast in itself, but…

33:43 Yeah. It’s been a big journey for me to learn to label my feelings, express my feelings, speak when I feel I need to, not be in a forceful way or raise my voice, but it felt a lot of the time like I was dragging it up out of myself, getting it out of my mouth. It’s difficult, it was hard. There’s a lot of techniques in the world. I’m training in a method which is psychoeducational therapy because I’m a therapist, so I am adding models that are supportive for people.

34:20 Works as long as it works for you. You know, there’s dancing, there’s ecstatic dance, there’s somatic experiencing, there’s TRE. There’s a lot of therapies out there where trauma and finding your voice and finding what you’re feeling and expressing what you’re feeling are at the center of that. I think it’s necessary and really important to realize that cult recovery—and I would rather say coercive relationship recovery—is a very specific kind of recovery.

34:57 A very specific kind of recovery because it breaks the bonds…

35:02 What is really a natural thing to know what you want and who you like and what you like. It’s a natural thing that we’ve been growing since we were born. That’s completely sub—the energy is completely redirected.

35:20 And so rebuilding that inner direction, finding your own sensations and labeling them, responding to them, expressing them. That’s a very specific thing to do.

35:38 Relationships break trust in the very people that we need to trust, those closest to us, because in those coercive relationship experiences, it’s the closest people that are telling us that we are worthless.

35:55 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I like the point you used on the last episode, was that it’s kind of like developing your own compass. And I guess people respond to things differently and different therapies, and it’s kind of an exploration into how to kind of put that compass together, back together again, or build your own entire new compass. But yeah, I think you’re right. There’s a lot of different ways and we’re all unique, so we have unique kind of paths in many ways.

36:31 Yeah, it’s gotta stay interesting. You know, what’s the point of saying, yeah…

36:38 What’s the point of saying go to talk therapy or work it through? But I will say my experience of people—the people my own experience and the people that I’ve known recovering from cults—you can go to therapy for a lot of years and never touch the cult thing itself. It takes a really specific focus.

37:00 To acknowledge that coercive relational manipulation and the breaks in the relationships to yourself, your own body, your own truth, your own trust, networking trust, to pull that coercive identity out and find your own. It is quite specific.

37:22 And finding the inner voice is not something you do on paper. It’s not—you can go ahead and learn it in a book, but it’s through action. You have to go, I feel like this is right, and then do it. And it’s scary. Even tiny little decisions like you said can be really scary. Make the choice, take the step, and then do it and then repeat.

37:48 And in this way you build a language for understanding your own body sensations, what you want, what you need, where you are.

37:56 Yeah, in life, and you learn how to give yourself the space to decide.

38:01 It’s really important in terms of consent to give yourself the right to fully consent to what’s happening around you. Now I am a huge believer in consent. My own experience is that I have not come across a situation that can’t wait. In my own experiences, every situation that I’ve experienced can wait long enough for me to check: are you comfortable with this? Do you need time to think about this? Are you aware of the outcome of this situation? Are you fully…

38:39 Here right now? Do you understand what’s happening right now?

38:44 Those things just to check: are you engaged in this? Are you here? Like, it’s really important. And there isn’t even a really hot, passionate, erotic situation happening too quickly to truly check my consent and anybody else’s. And that’s the inner voice as well, to give it a chance to be heard, to not rush forward, rush ahead, bully yourself into interactions that feel that they have a power imbalance, to take the time it takes to listen and to respond.

39:20 And to try new things. How about I wait half an hour? How about I walk outside and see what I feel then? How about I bounce up and down a bit and tap my body maybe and see if…

39:31 It—see if I become more engaged. So, and through giving myself the right to consent, I found nuances in my own body, mostly through slowing down and just asking questions.

39:45 And then allowing myself to choose to do something different. What about I just do something different? And different is enough. It doesn’t have to be the right choice. There’s no perfect answers, perfect clarity, encapsulated perfect outcomes only come in fairy tales. The reality of life is much more a kaleidoscope of infinite unimaginable potential, something like that. And some of that is uncomfortable.

40:12 Very uncomfortable. I know that fairly well. Yeah, really beautiful words. I like the way you put that together. And the waiting, yeah, is really important. Because the urgency, whenever I feel urgency, I know I need to slow down because that was the tool that was used to push me into doing things. It has to be done now because this, this, this, this, and if it’s not done then the world’s going to fall apart. But yeah, like you said, taking space and time to really check and explore is such an important facet of learning to get consent.

40:59 Yeah, and the…

41:01 All our topics. Well, we haven’t raced through. We’ve gone slowly through and we’re kind of getting to the end of our time. Can I just do some rapid fire questions for you? Would that be okay?

41:14 You can, but I just wanted to make a point about relationships because you brought it up by saying about consent.

41:20 I did. Right, okay. We don’t have to do rapid fire.

41:26 Well either way, I just wanted to say that through consent you build a relationship to yourself. And then that’s a relationship of trust. Always knowing that a safe relationship is a relationship you can pause. You can pause just because you want to.

41:41 You don’t need a good reason. And that’s safety without punishment, without retribution, without attack, without anything. Just like, let’s just pause for yourself, for myself, just to take a moment. And that’s what builds a safe relationship with another, that you can share wants and needs.

42:01 Yeah, yeah, beautiful words. What gives you hope when working with survivors?

42:07 These are the rapid final questions.

42:09 I think when someone takes an action they’re terrified of and it doesn’t have the outcome that they expected, and the sense of relief and delight that fills a person when they see an array of new possibilities because of one relatively small action.

42:34 If listeners remember one thing about today’s conversation, what would you hope that it would be?

42:40 The compass is inside. Resilience isn’t like strength, you’re not tearing something down, ripping it out, ripping it apart, raging against. It’s simply that you are here, you have a right to exist. The static and the noise pass, and your instrument is humming as it always did and always will. And you can learn to read yourself again and sing your own song.

43:12 I love it, love it, love it. I guess, yeah, we’re coming to a close right now. I’d love to have you back to discuss some other interesting topics because I really enjoy your perspective on these things. But yeah, on behalf of Unspun I would like to say huge thank you to you Bec’s for giving up your time and sharing so deeply and warmly.

43:36 I’ve really loved this conversation.

43:39 Thanks, Allie. Thanks for having me here. I hope that this perspective of mine, as well as I could put it in this short time, touches people and they find themselves, find their way to me if they feel drawn, or find the way to the connections needed.

43:58 On behalf of Unspun, I’d like to say thank you for joining us today for part two of our conversation. We hope today’s discussion has reminded you that reconnecting with your body, your desires, boundaries and your sense of self is not just about becoming someone new, it’s about rediscovering who you’ve always been beneath the layers of conditioning and control. These conversations aren’t always easy, but they’re important. By talking openly about topics like desire, consent, shame and healing, we create space for understanding, compassion and recovery.

44:37 If episodes have resonated with you, we’d love your support. Please follow us on Unspun, leave us a review and share these conversations with others who may find hope in hearing them. Also, please check the show notes if you would like to see Bec’s socials or connect with her. If you’d like to learn more about our work, connect with us. Until next time.

45:01 Take care of yourselves, be kind to one another. And remember, recovery isn’t about returning to who you were before. It’s about discovering who you are free to… Thanks for listening to Unspun. Bye for now.

00:41 Welcome back to Unspun, the podcast where we unravel the threads of life inside high control groups and cults. We explore what recovery can look like on the other side. Today we’re joined by Bec Sonkkila, who spent six years inside MISA, a Romanian yoga cult with a global reach and a guru who is currently imprisoned on serious criminal charges.

01:05 She got out, then she spent years figuring out what that actually meant, not just leaving, but rebuilding a self that has been systematically dismantled. That process became her work. Bec is a relationship and recovery coach, specialising in coercive control, post-cult identity, and the kind of intimacy that nobody teaches you. The difference between connection and compliance, between desire and obligation.

01:33 Between a relationship that expands you and one that slowly erases you. Her approach is practical, body-based, and grounded in lived experience, formal training and continuing study. She draws on hypnotherapy, somatic work, and over a decade of deep study in human psychology and relational dynamics. She works with people who are done being confused about why their relationships feel wrong.

01:58 And ready to understand what it is to feel right. Bec is very intrepid and splits her time between New Zealand, Australia and Finland. She works with clients internationally and is currently writing about her cult experience and the long road back to a self you can trust. I’m so excited that you’re here, Bec. This conversation will be released as a two-part

02:22 episode. In part one, Bec shares her personal story, what drew her into MISA, what life was like inside the group, and the experiences that ultimately led her to leave. It’s an honest and courageous conversation about identity, belonging, and finding the strength to rebuild a life beyond a high control environment. In part two

02:44 we take the conversation in a broader direction, drawing on Bec’s experiences, we explore body connection, desire, sexuality, consent, and what it means to reconnect with ourselves after living in an environment where these aspects of life can become deeply shaped by external beliefs and control. This is Bec’s story.

03:08 Welcome, Bec’s. I’m super excited that you’re here with us today.

03:12 It’s such a pleasure to be here. Thanks for inviting me and thanks for being fascinated with my story.

03:18 yeah, it’s a great story and I guess I know you on a bit of a personal level as well and yeah, it’s really exciting to have this conversation with you ’cause I think you’re really amazing and interesting to talk to. So that’s another bonus. I’m wondering if we just start with gaining a bit of understanding about the cult that you were involved in. like maybe give us a brief interview.

03:42 I’m sorry, overview of Mesa.

03:45 Misa. Mesa, known by many names in many countries, although it originated in Romania, Misa, the movement for spiritual integration into the absolute is what that stands for.

03:56 Wow.

03:57 On paper, it’s a Romanian yoga school headed by Gregorian Bivalaru, a Romanian man, the founder. And it was founded nearly 30 years ago. And he was arrested in 2023 in France as part of a massive investigation, 144 police.

04:13 Police officers all over France in a in a huge bust that have arrested a bunch of people, some of which are still in prison, one of which is GB, that’s how we like to refer him, to him post

04:24 Yeah.

04:25 as an ex-member. And that’s sort of the headliner version that he was there was an investigation into trafficking and sexual exploitation arrested in 2023, ongoing invest ongoing investigations. The the legal case has not been heard yet.

04:40 Here here it is and and what I really want people to understand about this group, it’s i it’s it’s it’s that I didn’t walk in to be a member of a cult. I wasn’t looking for a cult. And no nobody does. I I walked into a yoga school,

04:51 Yeah. Exactly, yeah.

04:53 I was seeking human connections to do better, what was important in life, what’s worthwhile. I had

05:00 Yeah.

05:00 looking for higher values and I was asking people what a higher value even was. I walked into breath work, into body work, into optimizing my physical, mental and emotional condition and checking that

05:12 Yeah.

05:12 with other people. Am I actually more balanced and with myself? What are the outcomes I can achieve? And I was

05:18 Yeah.

05:19 already doing many practices for that for many, many years prior to MISA.

05:23 And I’d spent nearly twenty years before Mesa as a naturopath and as a personal trainer and a breath work instructor and a body worker.

05:31 Yeah.

05:32 so my entire life orientation was around

05:35 what my body knows and developing my body knowledge and to trust what it tells me and not to override it. And that’s exactly

05:43 Yeah.

05:43 the door that a cult comes through. And it’s these high control groups, it it catches your attention, selling you the exact thing miraculously that you’re looking for. That’s right. And and

05:52 That you’re looking for, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

05:57 then it and then it slowly

06:01 moves your compass so it points to them to to this other value system and you end up operating for for their value system under their motives under their directorate and not your own

06:12 Yeah.

06:12 anymore your voice is usurped swapped out for theirs and it’s

06:17 Yes.

06:18 the your own voice that you learn to trust you can’t hear it anymore and you end up wearing theirs.

06:24 Yeah. W so what originally drew you into it?

06:28 Well, like I said, I was looking for what was worthwhile in the world. I’d been practicing a long time yoga and these biohacking things and breath work. I was feeling great, sleeping less, eating light, f feeling amazing, I was more emotionally

06:38 Yes, yeah. I love biohacking. Yeah.

06:44 balanced than my parents, which was a big goal than I had ever been. I’d got on

06:49 Mm.

06:49 top of those things that we want to get on top of. I wasn’t getting, you know, angry or losing my

06:55 sell my s stuff about things that were irrelevant, about the traffic or this and that. Everything in life seemed to flow and glow. It was beautiful and amazing. And I just wanted

07:05 Yeah.

07:06 more and I wanted to consolidate it and I wanted to share it because I thought, why is it we don’t understand why we suffer? Why is it we don’t understand how the way our like how I den our identity false identities disrupt our relationships with others. So I just

07:21 Yes.

07:22 I

07:22 I wanted more of that and I was offered that and yet it was

07:25 Yeah.

07:26 not what was given.

07:28 Yeah. A and was it initially through a yoga practice that drew you in or?

07:34 Like what was the what was the connection point? I mean it

07:34 Was it a initial practice?

07:37 Yeah, or the connection point, yeah.

07:39 It’s really just mundane stuff. Like everyone, I I was happened to be in India for twenty eleven

07:45 Yeah.

07:45 eleven eleven eleven. I had gone to a kind of festival

07:48 Mm.

07:49 there because I thought it would be nice. It was full of like singing and people meditating and doing yoga and I just thought it would be lovely for my birthday n in 2011 to in November to be in India, somewhere I’d never been,

08:03 Yeah.

08:04 with a bunch of people feeling good with each other, sharing beautiful energy, beautiful breath.

08:09 Feelings, and

08:10 Yeah.

08:10 I just thought that would be a great experience. I’d always wanted to travel India,

08:13 Yeah.

08:14 and then I came across this class in Rishikesh with a man called Andre Popper, and I felt what he was saying aligned with the kinds of books that I was reading, and then we did some

08:24 Yeah.

08:24 meditations together, and I felt like it was a really powerful experience, and so I stayed for just a little bit more, and just a little bit more led to a little bit more.

08:34 And what I didn’t understand at the time is that I thought this inner compass, this inner knowing that I’d been cultivating my h whole life couldn’t be usurped. I thought it was something that was a birthright, truly fundamental, truly

08:45 Yeah, that makes sense. Mm. Yeah.

08:50 stable. And so I felt in the beginning I could see the distinction between when he was saying something true and when he was saying something untrue in order to manipulate me or or

09:02 you know, throw praise over me to make me feel good for some other cause and I I thought I could shir sh shirk it off. I thought I could shrug that off. Like that’s not relevant,

09:10 Yeah no.

09:11 but this is relevant. But what I didn’t realise at the time and what I know now is that this

09:17 these kinds of the these kinds of communication structures because of how human behavior works in social environments, we are changed by it regardless of our skepticism, regardless of

09:30 Yeah.

09:30 our idea that it’s not our value system, regardless of the view that it’s not for me, you will still do as the social structure commands that you do, no matter what your belief

09:40 Yeah.

09:41 system. And that’s how that’s how these organizations work. And even if it’s not that thing that

09:45 Yeah. It’s very, very

09:46 You do,

09:47 clever. Yeah.

09:48 it’s this other thing that you do. It’s like, well, I

09:50 Mm.

09:51 saw that coming, but lo and behold, underneath it, you’re doing these other behaviors that the organization is inviting you to do,

09:57 Yeah.

09:58 and then you have to confabulate in your mind why you did it. but that didn’t really cost me anything, or that was fine, or I I that that’s

10:05 Yeah.

10:06 not really an issue. And so in hindsight, you you can pick these things out, but we’re getting ahead of ourselves now into Yeah, into how the

10:12 We are, we are indeed. It’s great though.

10:15 I love what you’re saying. It makes total sense and you I it feels like you really get the nuances of how people are slowly indoctrinated over time. Yeah. So who

10:28 Yeah.

10:29 have how who have the power in this group?

10:32 Well, all cults are run by singular heads. That’s the

10:35 Yeah.

10:36 nature of a cultic organization. They’re a toxic social structure that doesn’t value the individuals. It

10:43 Yeah.

10:43 values a singular head. So in this case I named him Gregorian Bivalaru.

10:47 Yeah.

10:47 And under him are what’s called in the cultiverse, lieutenants. So the other people that

10:53 Right.

10:54 hold the doctrine together. But none of those really

10:57 Yeah.

10:57 hold any power and if they do they’re

11:00 Well, they’re torn down and caused to leave. And I saw many instances

11:04 Right.

11:04 where people who had devoted their entire adult lives to Gregorian Vivilaru were pushed to tears in his presence to hum and humiliated in front of

11:15 Yeah.

11:15 people much, let’s say, lower or you know, people who had just joined n in a way that was really clearly

11:24 Arranged.

11:25 deeply distressing for that person and for no

11:28 Yeah.

11:28 real visible reason, except

11:30 Right.

11:31 understood in cult dynamics to to take power over and to take power away from, to humiliate, to distort, to gain control.

11:39 Put them in their place.

11:41 Mm.

11:42 Yeah.

11:42 were there different roles for men and women or was it pretty egalitarian?

11:48 One of the central common threads in cultic organizations are the many rules.

11:53 And now we jump ahead to how a cult actually functions. And there are many, many, many rules in all cultic organizations, no matter if they’re a church, a yoga organization, or a small individual family. And what one finds out through deconstructing how cults work is that those rules are generally the same across the board through the organizations, controlling how genders behave.

12:22 what they wear, what you can say and can’t say, who you say it to, in what way and when, and what you do with your life. And there’s different rules for the head of the organization and the members and there’s hierarchies in the organization. And also a common feature of cultic organizations is how those seemingly extremely strict unbending rules completely change and swap at

12:45 Well, at the

12:45 Yeah.

12:46 at the at the behest of the leader of the organisation. So, yeah, of course there’s different rules for different genders on different days of the week. You know, in Mesa they had some fantastic ones you could eat.

12:58 you could eat egg was it egg yellows or egg whites, but not the you could eat y egg yellows but not egg whites, since those thousands of people are separating their eggs and swearing that one part of the

13:08 Yeah, yeah.

13:09 eggs. You could eat tomatoes but not the skin. You could, you know,

13:12 Yeah.

13:12 eat cream cake and sugar but you couldn’t

13:16 but yeah, but you couldn’t do other things. It was it was insanity. Vomiting was

13:22 Yeah.

13:23 well supported. Drink ten litres of salt water and puke every morning so you can get out the toxins, but eat cream cakes till you’re ten kilos heavier because G B likes chubby girls. Whatever.

13:35 Right.

13:36 So

13:37 Those cracks, when did they start to appear for you?

13:40 The the first the first flinches and doubts and and clashes inside were were physical and they’d been going on since the very beginning. It never

13:50 Right.

13:51 actually settled. Like there were

13:52 Yeah.

13:53 really beautiful experiences and really lovely teachings that I thought, wow, that’s so beautiful. But there was a a seed in me that thought, yeah.

14:02 Read that in a book, or yeah, that was nicely delivered information, or wow, that’s a really spectacularly beautiful experience and heartfelt loving connection with the person. Yet that doesn’t make a spiritual path, or that doesn’t mean that this is the right way to go. There was always this inner friction. My body had been pulling back and pushing against my mind and

14:27 like parts of the l do we call it a school or a practice? Let’s just call it a cult. Parts of the cult from the very beginning. But I had put that on pause. I pushed it back and I said, look, let’s just see. You know, it’s ridiculous to think I should agree with every part of this organization. So there wasn’t this is so amazing and then there was a moment of flinch. Outwardly

14:49 Yeah, outwardly I was like, this is amazing. They’re doing incredible things. This is so beautiful. And some parts were really very beautiful and some parts were really very weird. I even heard I I had heard a Buddhist teacher on on that l speaking to Sam Harris once saying that he had joined this organization and it was never really a natural fit for him, this Buddhist studies.

15:15 And they’d been talking about past lives and he’d never really got it or believed in it and he was told by a teacher to him, well, if that bit’s not for you, just let that pass by and take the bits that work. And I was working on that principle. But

15:29 Yeah,

15:29 kind of it it helps you s to suspend that kind of critical side of them or the critical

15:35 I did

15:35 suspend the I did suspend parts, but what

15:39 Yeah.

15:40 I didn’t know, what I didn’t understand, which we’ll uncover in this interview, is that the time I took suspending those doubts, I was able to be I was able to have my value system swapped out for theirs. I thought I would come back to my value system and say, okay, now

16:00 Yeah.

16:00 I have this data and that data.

16:02 what is actually working and what isn’t. But by the time I had enough data,

16:04 What can we marry together?

16:06 I no longer had a body I could feel. And that’s really when

16:09 Yeah.

16:10 we’re talking about what was the first flinch, the flinch and reaction and resistance was there for a long time until I started to r f un until I had no real stable inner universe to trust. But then

16:23 Probably.

16:24 the dis the inner discomfort was so intense I had to do something about that. So

16:28 Right.

16:29 Yeah.

16:29 What did you know in that moment that you hadn’t been ready to admit?

16:33 The moment that

16:33 Okay, so

16:34 The moment of

16:35 The moment of realising that that you were your body was in this state and you’re like,

16:40 I guess realization.

16:42 There were quite a few moments to tell the truth, but one was I had reached out to GB because this teacher in India had been behaving in a way that I felt was rape. I felt legally

16:56 Yeah.

16:56 in my country what he’s doing is rape, what he’s doing is at least sexual assault, and w people, mostly women, who

17:04 And men, though, were turned away from their spiritual path, from seeking. They were given bad experiences and left with a bad taste in their mouth and I felt

17:12 Yeah.

17:12 sad and sorry for that imprint that it could be years or maybe never that those people would come back around to personal growth. And I’ve been reaching out to G B about the behaviour of this teacher,

17:24 And in response I was no longer welcome to attend classes. In fact, I received a quite long scathing letter where I was told, You are not a yogi, you are not a woman, you are not human.

17:38 had a huge impact.

17:39 Yeah. And the impact it that it had was I thought, yeah. I thought, yeah, yeah, you’re right. I’m not a yogi. You’re not my guru. This path is not for me.

17:50 Whatever it is that I thought I was doing with my letter to you before, that wasn’t real. What is real is what I feel in this moment. And that was a lot of discomfort. There was so much

18:01 Yeah, bad.

18:03 inner static and intense feelings. It was an extreme physical experience, actually.

18:09 Right. Yeah. How did it manifest

18:11 They

18:12 to you physically? Is that can I ask?

18:14 How did it manifest for me physically? Well

18:17 Mm.

18:17 we’re talk what we’re talking about here is words that I discovered later in my

18:21 Yeah.

18:22 recovery. And it’s not until I had a scaffold to hang what I was feeling on that I had words for it. At that time all

18:30 Yeah.

18:30 I had was like inner static. I had inner pain. I felt sick, I felt confused, I felt distressed,

18:38 Yeah.

18:39 I felt

18:39 like fearful, frightened. I didn’t know who to talk to, who I shouldn’t talk to, I

18:43 Yeah

18:44 didn’t know where to turn. And yet in that moment

18:46 Here.

18:46 when I received that letter, I felt profoundly present. Very clear, very clear that I that where I was going was something I knew and not something he knew. So not something that group was giving me.

19:00 Yeah. Not something they were

19:02 impressing upon you anymore.

19:04 Yeah, I just understood right then and there. It no longer was well

19:08 Yeah.

19:09 maybe they do know and I just don’t know that they do know or I don’t have enough data yet or I haven’t tried hard enough. I just knew I just knew right then and there

19:18 Yeah.

19:18 right. They’re not who they say

19:19 done with the

19:20 they are.

19:20 Yeah, yeah, like really starkly came into focus.

19:24 Yeah.

19:25 Yeah. And it so in terms of the next step, was that the moment when you were like, okay, I’m out or was it a long, hard extraction process or

19:39 Look, the next steps are just long, long. Because yeah, I was expelled. They had to throw me out. I would have killed

19:47 Right.

19:48 myself in that organization if they hadn’t have thrown me out. So they had to throw me out for me to realise then

19:54 They’re not out for my best interest, they’re out for their best interest and I’m no longer useful, I guess. And yet still

19:58 Yeah. Hmm.

20:00 I had my doubts for a quite a while. I couldn’t frame G B as

20:06 not helpful on some level. I had to see him as good because the process is so long and painful. It’s a long way to go from this isn’t working for me to to I have

20:16 I have overridden my own body singles signals for so long. I have caused myself damage. And then watch that, watch that, because that’s a very dangerous thought. I have hurt myself. No,

20:27 Yeah.

20:28 they that organization has swapped out my value systems.

20:33 deliberately for theirs and told me to ignore my own inner feelings, to ignore what I believe, what feels good for me, what feels healthy to me, and they

20:42 Yeah.

20:42 have ignored all the signs of something being unhealthy for me in order to use me for their own gain, whether it’s sexual or physical or running workshops or doing paperwork or giving them money or whatever the organization does and did. It’s all of those things.

20:58 Yeah.

20:58 And so

20:59 where’s the journey from there? It’s it’s it’s the slow struggle to uncover who what I feel. So I spent a lot of years just really confused. And I I didn’t know what was true for me anymore. Like I was actually genuinely terrified that I that I couldn’t and would never know what was right and wrong anymore because I couldn’t even conceive

21:22 that my sense of right and wrong could be deceived, that I could be deluded and overcome and overwhelmed and redirected in the ways that I was. It was just it was outside of my perception of likely, probable, or possible. And so I had to go in this deep scrape dive through myself and look at all the choices I’ve made year after year after year. And I have to tell you that’s a very

21:47 painful thing to do to say I did that but I didn’t choose to do that. I did that but I didn’t choose

21:52 Yeah.

21:52 to do that. Whereas all the those years I’d been saying I am choosing to do that. I am choosing to do that. And that’s a difficult thing to understand when it comes to being an inside

22:01 Absolutely. I think that

22:04 a cult.

22:04 I think that’s one of the scariest things for people is when you lose control over things and it’s such a unique experience that people can’t understand how you lose control. Like I’ve often work with people who have severe mental illness and their brains

22:23 are not functioning like say you or I, their brains are they have lost control of their thinking or thought in some instances. And when that happens it’s terrifying because it’s so out of your normal experience. But it’s I guess I’m relating it to yours in that we have this belief that we

22:45 are able to get ourselves out of danger and we’re able to have agency in our world and when that’s lost or totally taken over and replaced, it’s so frightening. Is that

22:58 to disagree. It’s not frightening that it’s I I have to

23:00 Okay, going for it, yay.

23:03 disagree. It’s not frightening when it’s taken away. Because actually

23:06 Yeah.

23:07 there’s this sense of sureness in a body, but that sureness when you know what you know and you like something or you don’t like something and you’re choosing it for you. There’s always a seed of doubt. what if I had done that other thing?

23:19 that person gave me weird vibes. I don’t like them. I moved away. but what if they were a good person?

23:22 Yeah.

23:23 I’m really being judgmental. You know, there’s always that seed of doubt, but what a what a cult gives you is sureness. It gives you

23:30 Yeah.

23:30 absolute rules. Wear this, do it this way, do it that way, do it this way. I mean, no matter how you try, you’re always doing it wrong. But somebody told you what to do. They told you what to think and where to go. And that’s exactly how it works.

23:42 So you have

23:43 Yeah.

23:43 this inner inner inner knowing. You have this inner voice. You have this inner feeling in your body. I feel good. I am more emotionally stable. I know I’m handling these situations better. And then you swap that out for the organization telling you you’re handling this worse. You’re handling that better. You need to channel more shakti, go work in a strip club. You need to, you know, you know, you need to be less of a vacillating woman.

24:09 go and handle our media or something, you know, whatever they want you to do, they come up with

24:12 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

24:13 a reason and you’re like, actually I was feeling really stable. All right, I’ll go work on that, because obviously I’m not, if you think so. So they give you this

24:20 Yeah.

24:20 this opinion, something to do about it. You never get reach the bar. You know, there there’s that great book, you know, try and try again, all all all is all all is coming about this kind of cultic mind control and this spiritualist practice of telling you, practice, practice, all is coming and

24:36 And yet you you never get there. But there’s that sureness. But what happens when you realize that you are no longer aligned with your own values? For you not even your own value systems, like your body is crumbling, your mind

24:49 yeah.

24:50 is breaking down, you’re having nightmares and panic attacks, and you don’t even have a name for them. You’re having and they’re telling you it’s because you’re not practicing hard enough, and eventually you are like I questioned

25:01 Need to do more yoga, pray more.

25:03 Maybe it’s this organization causing that distortion. So the the

25:07 Yeah.

25:08 actual sound of your recovery is agony. It’s the inner state of cognitive dissonance of the pain of your behavior versus your belief systems. It’s the agony of having belief systems that don’t actually match your life experience. Like maybe it’s, you know, homophobic value systems or

25:28 Yeah.

25:29 value systems, j you know, a a lot of a lot of organizations have you know, si i judge various sexual practices, you know? And and

25:37 Yeah.

25:38 you you’re you’re feeling like shame or guilt around around that and which doesn’t align with your own actually pre lived life experience, for example, or or you know, and there’s having these conflicting values, that that static that violent experience, that pain, that’s

25:56 That’s the sound of your own inner system turning back on. So actually the

26:01 Yeah.

26:02 experience of recovery is a painful, dysconfused feeling of not knowing and who am I and how do I find who I am and and that’s potentially one of the reasons and it would need more research why people end up in another cult, because they’re looking for clarity and sureness. I just this is so uncomfortable,

26:18 Exactly.

26:20 somebody sort it out.

26:21 Direction safely. Yeah. Yeah, Jaira

26:23 And so

26:25 and I just had that in our last episode had that exact same problem.

26:30 So what

26:30 these organizations take from us is is something way simpler than all our beliefs. It’s actually the innocence of our own experience. It’s that

26:39 Yes.

26:40 I exist, I feel I like or don’t like something and I don’t need to say why. It’s

26:46 Yeah.

26:46 the the place where you just know in yourself what it is or isn’t.

26:51 And yeah, you could have lots of ideas of whether that’s right or wrong going forward, but in that moment your body just knows. And then that’s that inner compass we’re coming back to with a clarification of understanding what a cult is.

27:03 Yeah, for sure. Absolutely.

27:05 What do you think the beliefs or reflexes for you were the hardest to unlearn? And I mean in some ways some people still unlearning

27:14 Well, we’ve brushed against this quite a lot and the unlearning is the unlearning that sureness is correct, that external

27:22 Yeah.

27:23 guidance is better than internal guidance. That’s the unlearning. And that’s

27:26 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

27:27 that’s something that you have y at birth, you know what you like and you don’t like.

27:32 And then we’re socialized into certain behaviours and a healthy social structure allows people to choose at their own pace what’s working

27:40 Yeah.

27:40 for them, what’s not working for them, and and move through things. There’s a natural rate to that. Then th there’s kind of innocence and simplicity to play with it. And there’s and you’re

27:46 And playing with it. Yeah. Yeah.

27:50 always in this kind of window of tolerance. So now I have all these words after I deconstructed this whole cultic thing, after I kind of just scratched my way out. And

28:01 And that just came from the pain, you know, I was just so uncomfortable. There’s no one thing that helped me understand what had happened to me. It was just that I kept looking and I found a lot of things out there. I found a lot of words. I found therapist abuse. A lot of people write about that. And I found the word cult. And I found the you know, I found high control organization and narcissistic abuse and sociopath and

28:28 I read everything I could find. I watched all the movies I could find. I watched documentaries. I listened to podcasts.

28:33 Wow.

28:34 I was on YouTube. I was all over it. I used something till it worked. When it stopped working, I dropped it. I picked something else up and I just kept going until

28:42 Yeah.

28:43 it was clear it wasn’t just little me who had this bad experience that I let this thing into my life because I was silly and stu you know, I was a silly girl who got taken advantage of and probably I was needy and, you know, too sensitive.

28:56 that even got manipulated to

28:59 Hm.

28:59 this kind of genre of behaviour, this kind of behaviour has dates back to the beginning of human human existence. This is a whole

29:09 Capital thing.

29:10 s at a whole a whole spectrum of how groups interact and operate.

29:16 Yeah.

29:16 There is no you’re weak and you ended up in a cult because you wanted something or needed something specifically. This is everywhere. And so these

29:25 Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.

29:28 so these organizations, once I understood these words, then I got other words like thought reform, which is brainwashing, and I got introjects, which is the values

29:38 Yeah.

29:39 of the organization inside you, and I got

29:42 I got a bunch of different distinctions that helped me understand what was this feeling inside this like I think this but I did this.

29:48 Yeah.

29:49 this cognitive dissonance and what is this feeling and then I have and I’m like, well that’d be panic attack and you know and then I got

29:55 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So you really

29:59 went on this huge mission to find out as much as possible and educate yourself and to help you understand what

30:07 That’s right, and I just didn’t stop. And eventually

30:08 And yeah. Yeah.

30:11 it led me to realise there isn’t enough conversation around this. I mean, it just shouldn’t

30:15 Yeah.

30:16 have been this hard for something that is so synonymous with culture and society cult culture. It’s just a culture, a toxic culture, but it’s just a culture that’s a part of our culture. And that’s why this thing

30:28 Absolutely.

30:29 is everywhere. And it’s not

30:31 you need to see the red flags of what is a cult. It’s you need to see when you stop engaging in a broad way in society, taking in broad views. It’s when you start closing down. It’s when you start screaming over the top of your own inner voice.

30:47 Yeah, exactly. And I think it’s a really good point that you raise in terms of it’s not just cults and there are so many people who get caught up in these scenarios every day and it there’s this kind of is it myopic view that only certain people get absorbed or join cults when it

31:10 There’s so many coercive organisations that work to change people’s interior world. and not enough recognition of that.

31:18 Like it’s the kind of

31:20 weird salacious experience that only you know, a few people have. Much Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

31:26 Only the specially broken or the specially weak or the specially needy person and it and it somebody

31:32 said to me years ago, a a very intelligent woman I know who I respect who’s a good friend, still a good friend, said to me, I, you know, a a cult couldn’t get me. I I went to this Scientology group when I was a teenager and I knew what they were doing. They didn’t they didn’t catch me, I I could walk away and I said, They didn’t want you.

31:53 my god, I love that response.

31:53 That’s why they didn’t catch you. You didn’t have anything of value for them at that time.

31:59 Right, you didn’t have enough cash, baby.

32:02 You didn’t have enough money,

32:03 power, influence, and you probably weren’t hot enough. What did you have that they wanted? You know, that’s the thing. If they want

32:07 Yeah

32:10 you, you will not believe the lengths that they will go to to get you. And it’s it it extends

32:15 Yeah. Yeah yeah.

32:17 way beyond anything anything any normal person, not normal person, but anybody who hasn’t been deep inside one of these organizations could even understand. It’s like way beyond

32:28 Yeah.

32:29 anything you’ve ever seen in a film.

32:30 You can’t put it in a film. That’s the thing. A documentary came about out about my cult and it most of what goes on in the cult isn’t even there because they can’t say it because nobody’s legally proven that they do that. So it’s only those

32:44 Yeah.

32:44 who have been deep inside, deeply immersed that really know what lengths these organizations will go to to get you. And it’s on every level.

32:52 Yeah, the understanding

32:54 the real nuance of how it works. ‘Cause it does Yeah.

32:56 yeah, and they are they are committed

32:59 and hardcore and, you know, unrelenting. So so let’s zoom

33:03 Absolutely. Yeah.

33:05 out. Yes, this is a genre of behavior that is as old as humanity, as old as group gatherings themselves. So yeah, it’s no

33:13 Yeah.

33:13 fault of any specific individual of something that they did. I said some years ago a phrase that I quite like and I’ve used it since, which is

33:21 when when somebody said they felt sad for their them them getting involved in this organization I said hey don’t blame yourself catching a cult’s like catching a cold it’s like it’s a broad

33:32 Yeah.

33:32 net they have a lot of different systems for lots of different kinds of people they’re telling each individual exactly what they want to hear that they’re gonna give them that thing and it’s really a bit hit and miss in terms of your life i your life situation

33:46 of how involved you’re gonna be with the cult. And it’s usually not a function of needy or weakness, it’s a function of highly skilled people with a lot of time and money on their hands. Because

33:58 Yeah.

33:58 people who have resources have the time and money to think about what they could do better, how they could give back, how they can be connected to others and do more, how they can kind of make things right in the world. And then they’re looking for people to come together and do that with.

34:14 And these are the kind of people, they’re not weak people, they’re people who run companies and homes and families so skilfully, they have extra time.

34:23 Yeah, somehow. Yeah, exactly. Yeah,

34:26 Yeah, that’s a hard thing to do, and we all know it.

34:29 yeah. Yeah.

34:30 I guess what were the first hints for you that you were coming back to yourself or is there any memories around that or starting to I don’t yeah.

34:42 People often people ask like what what what was the moment that I or the like what was the moment or the thing that you f felt like you’d found and it just it

34:53 Yeah.

34:54 just doesn’t this is a messy process. And and I and a human

34:57 Isn’t it?

34:58 a human yeah and a human life defies this like quick encapsulation. So I would say my primary my primary

35:06 success is some kind of grit and tenaciousness. I just didn’t stop.

35:11 Yeah.

35:12 I would not accept I would not accept and I still don’t accept and I wouldn’t s I’m not done. I I do not

35:19 Yeah.

35:19 accept that what level I’ve recovered to is the level I will get to. I would say

35:25 Yeah.

35:25 that just like Gabor Mate in his book The Myth of Normal, it just takes way more wit work than I ever expected and it’s kind of never done.

35:33 Because i I’m not perfecting

35:34 Excellent.

35:35 myself, I’m like harmonizing myself like an instrument. And because my environment is ever changing, my instrument is ever being tuned. And that journey

35:44 Yeah.

35:45 is a really beautiful one and it goes way beyond recovery and into like a depth of presence of being.

35:51 I love that answer. You have such an masterful way of speaking these concepts. I really appreciate that. Yeah.

35:59 Thanks. Yeah,

36:01 and I’ve and actually I really like that image and it was maybe by chance or maybe because we used the analogy before that that

36:08 Yeah.

36:09 the sound of like the sound of recognition that you’re inside an unhealthy dynamic is pain.

36:16 Yeah.

36:17 That’s not a signal that you’re broken, that’s not a signal that you’ll never recover. This kind of internal dissonance and the panic and the anxiety and the depression and the

36:27 don’t know who you can trust in the confusion, that’s actually a so sign that your instrument is turning back on, that your compass

36:33 Yeah.

36:34 is flowing this way and that, and you’re looking for where the alignment is. And at some point that that tune becomes a sound that you can hear and you can feel. And then your compass is inside. You’re you own it.

36:46 Yeah, absolutely, I totally agree. yeah, often with clients I’m working with, they’re like, I’m so confused and this is so painful and it’s so this and it’s so that and I I try to gently kind of say that’s actually good because that that you’re in a space where you’re open to learning and you’re in a space which means that you’re on your way or the connections are coming or they’re being connected. It’s

37:13 Like you’re not in stasis or you’re not stuck. it’s quite hard to kind of believe I guess when you’re in pain, but yeah, I think that’s a long

37:24 Yeah. And that and that’s the thing that these groups are selling. That they’re selling like a complete packet. I will free you from pain. I will free you from confusion. I

37:33 Yeah.

37:33 will take you to the endpoint. You will find awakening here. You will find Amrita here. You will find like your perfect partner love match.

37:42 Whatever here,

37:42 Yeah.

37:43 you will find the perfect union here, perfect sex here, the da da da da da. Every man will want you, every woman will want you. Whatever it is you’re seeking, it’s all here and it will be perfectly handed to you and I will give it to you if you just work hard enough. Well There are no perfect solutions in life. Life Life is simply just what it is. It is what it is appearing. There’s no there’s no other perfection than this

38:06 incredible mystery. There is no other place to be than this sometimes painful, sometimes glorious, delicious ecstasy, agony experience of confusion and sometimes loving your partner is devotion and sometimes it’s

38:17 And a little Yeah.

38:20 just work.

38:21 Yeah. I wonder, like I know that you’re really passionate about other things and I wonder how I mean in terms of flying and learning to climb and do things like that, I wonder how that’s played into help support you on this journey.

38:39 Yeah, so we’ve talked a lot about this in a compass and trusting yourself

38:43 Mm-hmm.

38:43 and the pain in inside the recovery, like the the sense of discovery of

38:48 Yeah.

38:48 just seeing that I have I have have I lived

38:53 To my fullest potential, have I done something worthwhile? Have I completed what I wanted? Have I even done what I wanted to do in life? Who am I? Like it’s like you turn

39:01 Yeah.

39:02 30, 40, or 50, and with these kind of questions you’re asking. And I think that a kind of tenacious, like, a tenacious kind of

39:09 cleaning of the lens or clearing back of the false beliefs and the false morals and the you know the self-judgment and those things. It’s it’s a process and it takes a long time. And there’s a there’s a real place for turning off the voices. It’s there’s a

39:26 If yeah.

39:27 real place for doing that. For just

39:30 silencing the the tracks because a lot of those are just such automatic stuff and

39:36 Online, yeah.

39:37 yeah and one could say you could meditate it away but actually it can just amplify it and and mindfulness when you come from a yogic or organization or a spiritualist group or a church group, any kind of prayer or silence or meditation is not really the way to to quieten the mind anymore because it’s quite triggering.

39:56 So a f something physical

39:57 Absolutely, yeah.

39:59 that isn’t yoga, that isn’t about being better for somebody else that isn’t something somebody else measures that’s just me. Me

40:08 Yeah.

40:08 and that raises edge of being in the now. And something

40:11 Yeah.

40:12 something that triggers fear, but a fear that will go away rather than the fear of God or the fear of

40:19 GB sending me off to wash dishes in a tiny little town because I didn’t do something menial in the right way, or the fear of two and a half thousand women calling me full of demons, or whatever the anxiety is, the fear that I’m on the wrong path or I’ll never get it back

40:38 Yeah.

40:38 again, or the f you know, all of these like unknowns, they never stop. This ambient terror in the background.

40:45 And that could be a corporate life as

40:45 It’s a lot of life.

40:46 well, which is also a kind of cult, like the corporate life that

40:50 Yeah.

40:50 says So yeah, the climbing and mountain biking and cycling and intense physical things and paragliding bring me to that edge of being right in that moment and it’s right there that I see what stands in my way of the recovery, let’s say. If

41:08 Right.

41:08 recovery and being present

41:10 and listening to myself for the same thing, if responding if responding naturally with innocence to the the the level of what’s required in that moment and no more and no less. So just put my hand on the next hold, lift my foot up, or just steer in the paraglider to to where there is to

41:30 Yeah.

41:31 go, just launch at the right time to really be so fully immersed in

41:36 all of nature that I’m responding to the right level, not overreacting, not withdrawn and underreacting, just action. And yeah, that’s definitely

41:45 Yeah. And train with your environment.

41:49 yeah, it definitely like aligns with that what is my compass? Like where am I in space? Like when is it the right moment

41:54 Yeah,

41:55 to move? And it’s not a second before or a second later. It’s exactly then, particularly with paragliding, exactly then.

42:01 Yeah.

42:03 Yeah, for sure. I like that the idea of the inner compass like yeah

42:08 Yeah.

42:09 or coming home to your own inner compass or developing.

42:12 Yeah. I think that you know when you sent out the questions and you you sent out the last like wrap up questions and the last one was what do I want people to go home with and to to know about people leaving cults? What do what’s the message I

42:27 Yeah.

42:28 wanna give? And I think we covered it but but I think but it’s worth it’s worth

42:34 it’s worth i putting it now because it relates to this. It’s that it’s not

42:38 Right.

42:39 it’s not a weakness that you were there, it’s not a fault on you. There’s nothing wrong or broken about you specifically more than anyone else. Mm

42:48 that these cults are a genre of behaviour that’s been around for so long that there’s no sense of personal blame that you ran into one or walked through one. It would be really weird if you didn’t. Everybody in the world has put aside their own values for something at some point or many points in their life for a partnership, like a parent or a child for a business or a deadline for even a stranger for

43:16 so many things that this is just that in an extreme version and to turn it into something that’s s specifically marks you like a red letter is just a kind of social self social socialized way of people distancing themselves from pain, which we can’t do. They we’re all gonna go through some profound suffering in life. So having said that the

43:40 beautiful lesson that comes from recognizing that you are in were in and a and are an ex member of a high control relationship or family or organization is that you get to really name that you’re in a compass is the most important thing and and

43:58 Yeah.

43:58 you get to come right back to that point in a way that other people may never get to name.

44:03 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. I guess, yeah, we’re kind of moving up to the final questions. if you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

44:16 Well i I’m not gonna say it’s gonna get easier.

44:19 Yeah.

44:20 So it’s it’s certainly more complex.

44:21 I don’t think anyone said

44:23 that so far. Yeah.

44:25 It’s certainly

44:26 more complex before, it’s more simple.

44:29 Mm.

44:29 And and at that stage when you’re right at the point where you’ve just realized that it’s not working for you, there’s so much confusion, you don’t believe anybody about anything anyway, you don’t trust anybody. And

44:40 Yeah.

44:41 w one of the primary issues of being in a cultic group is that you learn to distrust the very people that are close to you.

44:51 Yeah.

44:51 And it can be very triggering for a long, long time in life, maybe till the end of life, to be in conversations with people that were in the same cultic or family cultic group as you, because they use certain specific words, this kind of loaded language, and it triggers

45:09 Yeah.

45:09 you in a certain way and it and it and you are reminded that you can’t trust those people, that they are that they serve this thing, this this guru, this head that’s actually out to

45:21 that’s a that’s a toxic force in your life, not a healthy force. So so yeah, I wouldn’t have believed me if I said it was gonna get better. And but I would like to say that the feelings of terror and anxiety and confusion are not a sign of

45:40 your insanity or that you’ve done something wrong, that God is punishing you or causing some psychosis because you didn’t try hard enough or put enough in to getting awakened. I would say that is the sound of a healthy system waking up.

45:59 Yeah. I love that so much. Yeah. That’s a fabulous message.

46:05 I’m one

46:06 Big.

46:06 you know I pre answered that question. Yeah, that was

46:08 I thought so.

46:11 t it it just my continued continued uncovering, like I just wouldn’t take what it was. I wouldn’t bury it. Other people it’s so painful. Yeah,

46:20 Absolute determination. Yeah.

46:23 it’s just so painful to accept that you you made choices that

46:27 maybe caused yourself to be sexually assaulted or you made choices that maybe caused yourself to be starved or imprisoned or lose all your income or hurt your family in some way and all of those things on some level true for many survivors, most survivors of the organization are Mesa. And it’s just so painful to accept that that

46:49 that that wasn’t you. And

46:52 Yeah.

46:52 that’s it’s that little thread, because in the beginning you believe it’s you. Like, how could I do that? That you don’t want to face it. But to

46:59 Yeah.

47:00 actually accept that that I was there, however I wasn’t acting on my own values, that that I could not consent to that given the situation.

47:10 Yeah.

47:11 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think we often like we live in this culture of ultimate responsibility and quite frankly I think it’s bullshit because there’s so much that goes into making decisions. You know, our history, our ancestry, our experiences where we are, our our present environment, our mood, our there’s just so much

47:35 that goes into decision making. yeah.

47:39 Exactly.

47:39 And recently, interestingly on to this point, I had a conversation with let’s say a quite learned doctor and his perspective was around attachment theory. Str feels very strongly about attachment theory that if you are have this relatively healthy, balanced upbringing, then from there on in you are basically well set up for life and can handle like very

48:04 lots of very painful things happening to you and you’re really on track. And I said,

48:08 Yeah.

48:09 that’s interesting. I now firmly disagree. I believe it’s not that I don’t believe in attachment theory. It’s very useful theory, fantastic

48:15 Great. Agreed.

48:18 stuff. It’s that I have now seen, heard r so many stories of people who are doing very well in life, everything is going along really swimmingly, and then they catch a cult.

48:29 And then they’re in some hellish life cascade for five, ten, fifteen, twenty, twenty-five, thirty-five, forty years trying to recover from something that basically just derailed their life, and then they’re trying to recover it from it for the for the for tens of years going after that, and it turns them into a person that looks really dysregulated and

48:54 And misaligned in society and because they’ve had their value systems usurped and exchanged and swapped out for these other value systems and lived this life that did things that they didn’t even believe in and then came out losing

49:08 Yeah.

49:08 ten or fifteen years of their life and then can’t explain it to themselves. And this is why we need to have these conversations, because people don’t believe that happens. And it does. And then who do you talk to?

49:15 Absolutely. Yes. Yeah. And I love that

49:21 you I love that you brought that up and I love that you brought that up about around attachment therapy. sorry, attachment theory, ’cause it goes back to that kind of ultimate self responsibility stuff which I don’t believe in. I mean I yeah, I’m not gonna go into it anymore, but I guess

49:38 wow, I love I love this conversation we’ve had. I love how you you create really amazing kind of pictures or stories that make sense in terms of the internal processes of being absorbed into a cult and then being thrown out and the whole journey of processing that

50:02 made a lot of sense to me and yeah, so a huge thanks for coming on today. yeah.

50:09 Thanks. I really just hope this narrative is useful, that people can see themselves in this or you’re the partner of or you’re the child of

50:19 Yeah.

50:20 or you’re the parent of or you’re the friend of. And I hope that people out there say, Hey, I think you might want to hear this. Maybe it’ll show you something about yourself.

50:28 Absolutely.

50:29 And that’s you know, that’s why we exist, that’s why this podcast is here. And yeah, I think your voice has a lot of really amazing things to say. That’s why we’re having an episode two. and I can’t wait to get into that. so yeah, now we’re wrapping up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you to Beck.

50:49 I know your story will inspire and give people direction and clarity about their experience. I know that these stories can stir a lot, so take care of yourself and make sure that you’re doing okay. unspinning these stories takes a lot of courage to speak, to listen, to feel.

51:12 if anything came up today, please take care of yourself. we honor everyone who shared today, especially Bex. thank you for walking alongside us until n next time. This is Unspun. I’ll just

51:25 Thanks, Sally.

00:41 Welcome to another episode of Unspun, where we unravel the stories of cult recovery, examine how people recover and focus on thriving. Today we have another escapee of Jehovah and her name is Sara. Welcome Zara. It’s great to have you here.

00:58 Thank you for having me on. I’m excited.

01:00 Yeah, it is. I’m excited too.

01:02 All right.

01:03 Zara’s a former Jehovah’s Witness who is based in Omuru, New Zealand. She now uses her lived experience to speak out about the harm caused by high control religion and to support others finding their way out. She works as a helpline agent with recovering from religion.

01:22 Where she supports people reclaiming their autonomy, identity, and critical thinking after leaving restrictive belief systems. Zara is a proud queer woman and a vocal advocate for LGBTQIA plus and human rights. She’s driven by a commitment to challenge systems and that silence, control, and exclude. And at the center of it all,

01:49 She’s a mum with two teenagers, amazing. Raising them with the freedom she fought hard to claim. So great to have you here.

01:58 Thank you. It’s an honour to be here.

02:01 Yeah. and I guess we’ll just have a bit of a conversation about your journey to how you’ve got t to where you are today.

02:11 Yeah.

02:11 And I guess it’s quite good to start with a bit of an understanding of the cult that you were born into. well you were born into it, weren’t you? Were you? More or less. Yeah.

02:22 Yes, I was. Yeah,

02:24 I guess I I’m kind of second generation, if you want to call it that. since

02:28 Yeah, yeah.

02:29 I was raised, there was

02:31 Yeah.

02:32 myself and my sister. And actually as a child we moved around a lot, so I’ve actually associated with a lot of different congregations around New Zealand. And

02:42 Right. Yeah.

02:44 about age eleven my dad left who had never been a believer.

02:49 And I felt that about that time our belief system, our what had previously been, you know, our faith and our religion really became everything and it underpinned

03:01 Rocks.

03:02 every aspect of our lives, which, you know, for a a child at such a transitional age that created its own challenges because it became so conformist. And

03:13 Right.

03:14 there was this

03:15 increasing expectation as I’m getting older that I would take steps to dedicate my life to God.

03:22 Yeah.

03:23 And there’s this very pervasive sense of pressure that exists in attaining that next level as it as a you should be, without that being said. It’s implied. So I was publicly baptized at 17.

03:40 Rise.

03:40 still living at home. Soon

03:42 Mm.

03:42 after that I entered into full-time preaching service, attended training for that, and I devoted much of my time to being out in the preaching work.

03:53 Rise. Yeah.

03:54 But but after experiencing a sexual assault by an older female in the organization, being forced to conceal that

04:04 Wow.

04:04 I found

04:04 I became very disillusioned and I really

04:06 Right.

04:07 began seeking a social life outside of the organization. And it

04:11 Yeah.

04:12 was about this time that I met my now husband.

04:15 But due to my having ongoing contact with him and I guess engaging in behavior that was outside of what was considered acceptable.

04:25 and having associates who would deem to be, you know, questionable individuals, I was required

04:30 With a worldly

04:32 worldly, that’s you know it, you’ve got the termly.

04:34 Yeah.

04:36 that word they love to use. If you Yeah, if you’re not in, you’re out.

04:38 yes, we can’t have worldly people in our lives. Yeah.

04:43 So as you’ll know and as has been the case for many others before me,

04:49 I was required to engage in a very lengthy disciplinary process.

04:53 yes.

04:55 So during these meetings, you know, you’re facing an all-male panel. They pry

05:00 it’s

05:01 into the most intimate of matters. It doesn’t matter if they’re specifically even relevant to your wrongdoing.

05:10 any hint of impropriety and they are explicitly questioning your participation in sexual acts, what you were wearing, did you invite or entice attention? And I was nineteen, a relatively sheltered nineteen year old. And I just

05:26 It’s incredible, isn’t that?

05:28 yeah, I just I felt utterly scraped, you know, scraped out inside. And it’s

05:34 Really violated a hype

05:37 and yeah.

05:37 Hugely

05:38 violating but you don’t recognise it as being that because it’s just

05:43 Rise.

05:43 the right thing. It’s just part of the process. You have to engage if there’s any

05:48 I’ve heard so many

05:49 women talk about these disciplinary hearings and without fail every one of them have said they ask really explicit questions and I’m like, are they do they learn this? Is this a form of voyeurism or something?

06:05 It definitely feels that way because

06:07 Mm.

06:09 any opportunity that they can get a leg in basically in in that vein of questioning, they’ll take it.

06:19 Yeah.

06:20 they they will what I found is take it to to whatever level they can before you

06:28 Well, I remember becoming clearly uncomfortable with the nature of the questions and actually not sure how to answer them when I’m I’m being faced with having to answer questions about giving and receiving oral sex when that that wasn’t even, you know, on the agenda. That wasn’t even the point of my being in the meeting. And so you, you know, a program to

06:52 Do the right thing and answer

06:54 Yeah.

06:54 thinking you don’t have a choice.

06:57 Yeah.

06:58 So violated, violating, it it is absolutely the right way. I re you just feel

07:00 Mm. I liked your word scraped as well. I think that’s really Yeah.

07:07 because you’ve never experienced that before. So that you know, that led to me being reproved, which you know is essentially being put on public notice. It’s people are notified that you’re not.

07:18 a a safe contact.

07:21 Right.

07:22 and things escalated from there and I did become disfellowshipped or shunned.

07:27 Right.

07:28 And I remember their parting words to me were that you know I did and again a 19 year old girl, I’m getting up to leave. My life as I know it is over. They said that you’re not you’re no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but you’re not part of the world. You are

07:44 Fellowshipped person. And so you were

07:46 Wow.

07:46 kind of branded. Well, I felt, and I I left, and I just yeah, I was a wreck. And

07:54 I

07:54 you know, that led to me swiftly having to leave home and the job I had.

07:57 Wow. Yeah.

07:59 And I had nothing except a suitcase and a a few personal items. There are things from my childhood that have been dis destroyed. They’ve been lost. I’ve I’ll never see them again because

08:10 Wow.

08:10 to my family I became nothing. I didn’t exist.

08:13 Yeah.

08:14 so after that I found that my h I I became very sick, which was, you know

08:20 a hugely uncomfortable thing to be dealing with in a strange situation. So I

08:25 Yeah.

08:25 I moved to where I did have some family support. But I think what what started bringing me back was I found out I was expecting my first child and I just

08:37 became gripped with panic that he was gonna die at Armageddon due to my poor

08:40 Right.

08:43 choices. And I was

08:45 you know, isolated, I was estranged from everybody I loved and needed the most at

08:52 Yeah.

08:52 that time, you know, as a a new first-time expectant mother. And I was terrified and felt that I

08:59 I guess.

09:00 yeah, I had no choice but to get married,

09:01 Yeah.

09:02 make my way back. And it took it’s crazy when I think about it, it took months of catching buses across Wellington with a brand new baby.

09:11 Yeah.

09:12 Walking to attend these meetings alone, where I knew no one, where I wasn’t allowed to speak to anyone, where I had to worship in silence, and it took

09:23 Yeah.

09:23 months and months before I was reinstated. And

09:27 Wow.

09:28 since then I’ve been active on and off until my early 30s, and here we are today.

09:34 Wow. Wow. So it was quite

09:37 a protracted kind of process for you. Yeah.

09:42 It really

09:42 was, yeah.

09:43 just ask a a few questions for people who don’t know that much about Jehovah’s Witness, or J Dubs as we like to call them. who had the power in in your group or yeah, I think it’s pretty much the same all over, but yeah.

09:59 actually hearing you ask that makes me quite emotional because this is

10:02 Yeah.

10:03 this is a an area that feeds into I guess something that’s really prompted me to to want to speak out as you captured at the outset. So

10:12 Yeah.

10:13 it will come as no surprise that, you know, men hold all the power and

10:18 Yeah.

10:19 they hold it directly within the congregation.

10:22 through that hierarchy, but also indirectly through the greater, the the governing body, which is sort of the

10:27 Right.

10:28 based in America international body that

10:31 Yeah.

10:32 determine everything. And I found it really interesting when I looked at the stats that women make up 70% of cult members. So

10:41 Wow.

10:42 th the issue for me is that in the organization you’ve got these men that hold all the power.

10:49 And you might think, okay, well that that makes sense. Men are in charge. But actually it’s it it’s so much more than that because women don’t have a role or an identity beyond existing as a compliment to their mate, remaining compliant,

11:05 Right.

11:06 obedient, no voice.

11:08 And I was taught that scripturally as a female, I always came

11:12 Yeah.

11:12 below a man. So that’s what I’m being taught as I’m growing up as a female. And I had

11:17 Wow.

11:17 to consider the feelings of men in all all areas of my dress and grooming. So it was my responsibility. Was my top too low cut? Was my skirt too short? If I bent over, what could they say? I’m you know, I was constantly in this state of

11:33 who might I offend by my attire. And I was also raised

11:36 Wow. Yeah.

11:37 to believe that the most valuable thing I had to offer was my virginity. Which is

11:43 Yeah.

11:44 just it it sounds so outdated. It’s such an outdated concept. They have obviously still having to wear a head covering if you’re teaching in front of a male, and still very much perpetuating that arrangement of headship, whether

11:59 Man is is the head of of the woman of the household.

12:02 Right.

12:03 Even recently a comment was made to my daughter, you know, wh she was helping out clear up a table, which she does. I mean the kids are are are excellent at being helpful, but

12:14 Yeah.

12:14 the comment was, Wow, you’re so helpful, what a great wife you’ll make. And

12:18 Yeah.

12:20 so it highlights there that it’s unthinkable.

12:22 that a woman would be valuable in independence or valuable for her own talents and accomplishments. No, it’s unthinkable. That’s a goal. That’s

12:29 Anything else but being a wife, producing a good set of children

12:35 a goal to aspire to. And yeah.

12:37 It was it is in

12:39 so many cults it wasn’t mine, yeah.

12:42 I it’s

12:42 just it’s normal. It’s it’s

12:45 Yeah.

12:45 you know, it’s the norm. And interestingly,

12:47 It does.

12:48 my husband has never been a believer, but his word held more value than mine because he’s a a man. Domestic

12:57 Yeah.

12:58 violence is very common and the direction there is to continue being a devoted and dutiful wife and to reflect upon what you might have done to cause him to act that way.

13:09 Provoke it.

13:10 Yeah, to like what have you done that that’s

13:13 Mm.

13:13 prompted him to act that way?

13:15 Yeah.

13:16 I think people would be surprised to know how toxic female relationships can be in terms of social relationships. There’s a kind of a an unspoken hierarchy, especially if a a woman is married to a man that has a position in the congregation, you know, like the other

13:35 benchmark or standard that you should be

13:37 Right.

13:38 trying to meet. And

13:40 you know, I experienced a a terrible period where I was ostracized and bullied through social media. This is from people knowing for their love and care of others due to the contraception I’d chosen to use.

13:55 Wow.

13:56 So it what I’m highlighting with these comments is is just how outdated

14:01 and how how back and affected women are. There’s no bodily autonomy and

14:07 And it it’s hard I guess with the

14:08 And

14:10 and it sounds like i the woman’s status is attached to the man’s as well. So if your man has a higher position then you then that’s how you’re ascribed status. Is that right?

14:22 That

14:22 is a really great way to put it. And you’re absolutely right. And you

14:24 Yeah. Mm.

14:26 can’t really think of any other scenario outside of these cultic settings where yeah,

14:32 Where that would be the case, yeah.

14:34 where you you would every choice and decision is influenced by someone else. And it reminds me of a quote that I really like, that coercive people don’t need a woman to feel nothing.

14:47 They need her to distrust what she feels. So

14:51 Yes.

14:52 I raise that because the indoctrination really overrides any critical thinking and it forces

14:57 Yeah.

14:58 conformity by pairing repetition with emotional manipulation. So

15:05 Yeah.

15:06 females, women become dependent on authority or the male. So they foster an environment where

15:15 you you’re left with no other choice. And what I really found too, which has been one of the biggest things to overcome and recognize, is that the gut feeling that we all have, but that is so innate within us as females, is overridden at every turn.

15:33 Absolutely.

15:34 And so you are actually going against what’s biologically present within you, which

15:40 Yeah.

15:40 which is crazy.

15:42 Yeah, all your kind of mechanisms for decision making and your wisdom, your knowing, your everything is swapped out and replaced with the doctrine, essentially.

15:55 I really,

15:56 really like the way you’ve put that. Your mechanisms

15:58 Yeah.

15:59 have been replaced by the doctrine. Absolutely. And any

16:01 Yeah. Yeah.

16:03 space that you allow it will fill.

16:06 Absolutely.

16:07 Yeah. And it’s so dangerous, especially for women.

16:11 It is. It does.

16:11 because

16:12 you don’t know how to ever say no to anything. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

16:15 ‘Cause that’s not an option. It’s literally not an option. Yeah.

16:20 Yeah. so what were your first memories? Can do you have any? Of maybe cult experiences or?

16:28 Yeah, something that sticks out is I always, even from a very young age, struggled with feeling like there was a lot of hypocrisy.

16:37 Right.

16:38 And that that’s really hard to reconcile, especially as a young person when you’re just when you’re learning and it’s all it’s the rules and yet you’re you’re witnessing things that don’t make sense and don’t add up. And

16:52 Everything is supposed to be centered around love, but one plus one didn’t equal two. So again, if something fell off or uncomfortable or not right, I was having to put that aside in honor of maintaining the feelings of someone else. Otherwise, I

17:08 Right nice.

17:08 was imbuing bad motives on them.

17:11 Yeah.

17:12 So

17:13 Yeah, as far going along with that, as far back as I can remember, I I carried a very heavy emotional load. And I think that’s unavoidable. And I think a lot again, a lot of women, but a lot of people within the organisation do carry this

17:29 this pressure and as I got

17:30 Yeah.

17:31 older it became self-doubt and inadequacy and that’s reinforced from the platform under the guise of it being reminders or encouragement. You know, it’s you’re not good enough, you’re not doing enough, are you considering others? How can you improve? So I I felt a lot of confusion

17:52 Yeah.

17:52 in my time.

17:53 Yeah,

17:53 Yeah.

17:53 and I think when you’re confused you’re so much easier e it’s so much easier to be manipulated because you’re like I mean in a state of confusion you’re wanting direction. So the more that you can be confused, the easier you are to be controlled in in many ways. I think. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah.

18:14 Yeah.

18:14 Because the confusion becomes doubt and there’s no room for doubt. So again they will fill that with that manipulation, but that feeling of do more, do better, work harder.

18:27 Yeah.

18:28 Yeah. Produce more.

18:30 Yes.

18:30 How are treat sorry, how are children treated in the cult?

18:34 Well, I think it’s important to note, going right back to how children are made, that the whole concept of sex is with procreation in mind. So

18:44 Right.

18:44 again, we’ve talked about that ideal being a man and a woman and getting married and well, unless you’re devoting your life and service, the next step is have a baby. So

18:58 Yeah.

18:58 they are viewed as precious. I mean there is a strong

19:01 view in the Bible about raising your children and how they are a gift. And I I I do really like that idea. They are they are special

19:09 Yeah, I yeah.

19:11 and they should be treasured. But they’re also what I would consider they become a tool. So from a very young age the direction is to inculcate or ingrain

19:23 Within them, you should be taking every opportunity. There should be no time where you’re not using the occasion to teach them something scriptural.

19:31 Right. Yeah.

19:33 And then you have the instance where you know they get to a certain age, and anything they do, any any kind of negative behaviour reflects poorly on the parent. So it’s this,

19:44 Right.

19:45 and to the point where it will affect the position of a mayor might hold.

19:49 In the congregation, if his child is, you know, going through even usual teenage ups and downs. If you can’t

19:57 Yeah.

19:57 control your household, you can’t control the congregation. And

20:02 Wow, yeah.

20:03 something else I think that creates that burden for children and kind of highlights that learn, learn, you must be teaching is that.

20:12 Children are really encouraged to set themselves apart as different in school and work environments, but particularly

20:18 Right.

20:19 at school. And so there’s the direction is actually stand out, make a point of drawing attention to yourself as different. Stand up, attract.

20:31 attention in in the most negative way. I mean if you think about a a child at school at high school having to when all they want to do is fit in, no, that’s actually not available to you. You must always be taking a stand.

20:48 Wow.

20:49 Yeah, it’s a it’s a lot of pressure.

20:51 That is,

20:52 yeah.

20:52 And

20:53 it creates a lot of conflict. And I I truly think that that’s probably where the anxiety starts for most of us.

21:01 Absolutely, yeah. That’s terrifying. Yeah. What happened if someone doubted or pushed back?

21:08 Well, to be honest, Lisa, that really all depends on who you were. Who your

21:12 Right, okay.

21:13 family was. But as I mentioned, there’s no

21:16 Obviously

21:17 you you had that scenario. What if it was a young man or any other situations that you know?

21:24 You know what? It

21:25 is so subject to change. It depends on who you get as your panel. It depends on who

21:32 Right.

21:32 your family are. You know, because the whole premise of it is that they determining your heart condition. Are you sorry?

21:38 Right.

21:38 Are you repentant? So when you think of you know who we are as as imperfect humans and and and some people

21:46 possess more empathy. Some men are parents, some are not, some have been through it, some haven’t. And so you’ve got this panel and it’s just it’s a coint house as to who you might end up in front of.

22:00 Right.

22:01 But there there are, in answer to your question, there are no room for doubts at all.

22:05 Yeah.

22:06 You’re you’re you’re labelled as weak. I mean there’s this constant you’re either strong or you’re not.

22:12 Rise.

22:12 And if

22:12 if you think about again who we are as human beings, that’s that’s just not how we operate. We don’t get up

22:19 Yeah.

22:19 in the morning and think I’m good or I’m bad. There isn’t strong and weak as human like it’s a spectrum and

22:26 Yeah.

22:27 that we rely on others also to help us in that, but not here. Not here you’re solely accountable. And

22:34 Yeah, I loved

22:35 I love what you said before about it depends on who you are, depends on the

22:39 What

22:40 panel, and that reminds me of how it was in my cult as well. Like if you were if came from a good family or what was considered a good family, then maybe you would be treated differently if something was going wrong. It’s so nuanced.

22:56 There’s no yeah, it’s really tricky to explain, but I think you said that really well.

23:03 I I absolutely agree and I it’s surprising

23:05 Mm.

23:05 for me to hear that it’s also happened for you as well because it

23:09 yeah.

23:11 feels so so bizarre.

23:13 Yeah, definitely.

23:15 because it’s so arbitrary and it

23:17 Yeah.

23:18 it’s nuanced like you say, but there

23:20 Yeah.

23:20 isn’t. There is there isn’t actually a guidepost. There is, but there isn’t.

23:26 Yeah. They

23:27 can be kind of manipulated I guess, depending on who’s who’s who. Yeah.

23:31 Absolutely. And I can’t

23:34 tell you that the doubt that that actually creates within the congregation. It it is

23:39 Yeah.

23:40 it is confusing. Again, there’s that word of being confused, but also not being allowed to question that. You just

23:47 Yeah.

23:48 just push that down, suppress

23:50 Yeah.

23:50 that and get on board.

23:52 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

23:54 What did it feel like for you? ‘Cause you were obviously kind of quite cognizant of the hypocrisy and things from quite an early age. What was it like for you to carry that doubt inside a world where doubt was kind of dangerous really?

24:10 It’s it’s very draining. It’s

24:13 Yeah.

24:13 very draining. It’s isolating because of what I was starting to say, especially towards the end, and and when you give yourself permission to s to actually

24:23 give attention to those questions, I suppose. I actually started to feel like I was going a little bit crazy. And

24:31 Yeah.

24:31 I started to feel a little bit suspicious about things. Because you go through this very private internal process of firstly, you know, I’m having these thoughts. Okay, I’m gonna have them. Okay. But I shouldn’t be having them. But what do these mean? I can’t ignore that.

24:50 But nobody else is concerned. But I am. And it starts to become

24:54 Yeah.

24:54 more and more real until it takes hold and you just you can’t ignore it. But it’s it’s not nice, it’s uncomfortable, and it is dangerous. It

25:03 Yeah.

25:03 really is, because you can’t share it. You

25:07 Yeah.

25:07 can’t share it, you can’t trust anybody.

25:10 Yeah.

25:11 It’s just you are just in such isolation.

25:15 Right. Did you try to silence the questions? How did you deal with it?

25:20 I’m not a silent person, Alisa. I

25:24 Neither was I.

25:26 I was really fortunate to have an unbelieving mate, like an unbelieving husband who wasn’t influenced h either.

25:33 Right.

25:34 And I had a it was safe for me to start having those conversations at home. And it would go like

25:40 With her.

25:41 I you know, I would kind of pop out to the lounge and say, but what about what about when

25:47 And I’d I’d process it out loud and he would just listen. He didn’t there was no because he knew that it was a it was a process I needed to go through. Generally

25:56 Wow, that’s so wonderful.

25:58 he would say, Yeah. Like, yeah, you’re starting to wake up.

26:03 Yeah.

26:03 So there I don’t think I think once it started to build it was always gonna bubble out. But I I was

26:09 Yeah.

26:10 fortunate to have a safe person.

26:12 Yeah.

26:12 Yeah.

26:13 What was the moment or the event that made you understand you couldn’t keep living inside the J Dub world?

26:22 Well it was it’s a very clear event. I it’s it’s a ver it’s a pivotal event for me.

26:29 Right. Yeah.

26:32 so we had moved to the South Island, big family move, and initially I felt it was important to engage with the local congregation. Call me crazy.

26:44 Yeah.

26:45 and it it was quite a short time after that that I found out there was a convicted pedophile and his wife, like quite a a widely known pedophile that belonged to the congregation. his wife had also been involved in concealing his crimes. And this just feels so bizarre even sharing

27:05 Wow.

27:05 that this is this is reality. And, you know, it made my skin crawl.

27:10 I be

27:10 As as

27:11 it would for anybody I imagine. And I it got to the point I’ve got two one not quite teenage daughter and a teenage son. And I really got to the point I just I didn’t want them even participating, answering up, having parts on the platform because I wanted to protect them and not draw attention to them. This is how I’m feeling as I’m

27:32 Yeah. Mm.

27:35 you know, attending these meetings. But I really began searching my heart. so I you know, I’m thinking in a principled and moral normal way, it actually isn’t okay that

27:46 Yeah.

27:46 he’s done what he’s done and and my feelings are normal and valid. And so I sought out a friend in the congregation who I I thought I could trust, but her response to me was, well he served us time.

28:00 We have to forgive him. He’s repentant. You know, as in it’s not

28:03 Right.

28:04 for us to say, it’s not for us to have an opinion on. He’s

28:07 To judge.

28:08 been through his process.

28:10 Mm.

28:11 But my again at the time my daughter was the age of his victim. She was his victim.

28:16 right.

28:18 So how how was I supposed to feel? I I I truly

28:21 Hello.

28:21 did not feel accepting of him.

28:25 Yeah.

28:26 And so

28:26 I stopped attending. And after several months I was called to a meeting with the traveling overseer who makes his way around. He he looks after an area and a local elder. which again here I am, a married woman, but being faced with having to talk with two men, they wouldn’t come to my home. They wouldn’t allow me to bring my husband.

28:50 Wow.

28:51 and

28:51 I had to attend the the Kingdom Hall or the the church building. And it was very strange. It you know, they do usually follow a format. They’ll open with a prayer. You know, there’s a there there’s niceties to the uncomfortable situation. There is

29:08 Structure.

29:10 none of that. So I’m already feeling

29:12 This isn’t this isn’t right. This isn’t and I’m feeling very defensive because I’ve resolved that I’m gonna, I’m gonna be honest, I’m gonna speak my truth because this is safe, you know, this is a safe place. I they want

29:26 Yeah.

29:27 me to share, they wanna help me, they wanna fix me, they wanna bring me back into the fold. But I spoke about my concerns.

29:35 I asked why I wasn’t being made aware of the danger, as that is something that they say is a requirement that parents will be told. I, you

29:45 really? Wow. Okay.

29:47 know, I’m saying, why wasn’t I being made aware of the danger? Why why weren’t parents being informed I wasn’t the only parent? And what did they expect me to do? You know, I put that question to them. Like, how am I supposed to feel as a mum?

30:00 Yeah.

30:01 And I I was

30:02 attacked verbally, strips torn. It was it was horrible. And I

30:07 Wow.

30:08 I thought, no, you know, that there was that part of me that thought, this I have to take this. And I actually asked, you know, please stop, please stop. But where they landed was that

30:20 actually it told this in no uncertain terms I’m worse than a than a pedophile don’t be concerned with

30:27 Mm-hmm.

30:27 a paedophile because I’ve lost my faith and he’s sorry and he is welcomed and I’m bad

30:36 Wow.

30:36 and

30:37 They just continued. It was just this barrage of

30:40 Wow.

30:41 of why also questioning you why was I make why was I being contentious? And I

30:47 Why were you even questioning it?

30:50 exactly. Why why he’s sorry.

30:51 We’ve got it on hand, you silly woman.

30:54 He’s sorry. And

30:56 Wow.

30:57 I’ve lost my faith and I need to focus on like forget about him. You need to get yourself in line.

31:02 And I I I began to spin, my head began spinning and I got up and I walked out. And I don’t know if I’ve ever cried like I I got in my car and I just

31:13 Bald is all I can call it. You know,

31:15 Yeah.

31:16 everything came out

31:18 Yeah.

31:18 because how how could this be so wrong? Like But on top of it all, later that day I get a message from the elder who’d been there.

31:29 saying that he was sorry for how that ended, but I’d like to ask you do you take your children to the grocery store? Because you know those sorts of people are everywhere, something to think about.

31:42 And I I I I think I threw my phone and that that

31:46 Wow.

31:47 was the end of that because I can honestly say Alisa that

31:50 Every congregation I have been in, there has been some sort of maybe not a pedophile, but some sort of sex offender, predator,

31:59 Right.

32:00 unsafe person, and the science says that isn’t something that just goes away. And

32:05 And it’s not

32:07 it’s not coincidence.

32:08 It isn’t. And and not

32:09 Yeah.

32:10 when that whole scenario is evidence of if you say you’re sorry, you are welcomed back.

32:17 Yeah, yeah. Wow, it’s so amazing that you went in there and questioned them in the first place, you know?

32:24 I don’t know why I did, but again, like I said,

32:26 Wow.

32:27 I can’t be silenced.

32:29 Yeah. I mean, that’s a pretty powerful thing to do. Yeah.

32:34 Thank you.

32:35 I guess, yeah, I mean I could spend hours talking about all of this.

32:39 I

32:40 But it’d be great to kind of move on a bit with the the deconstruction or

32:45 Yeah.

32:46 yeah

32:46 When was or was there a moment when you stopped saying it as just your personal struggle and started recognizing that it was a coercive system, a cultic system that you were a part of and you wanted to do something about that?

33:01 Look, I I think for me both things are true. I think I had a personal struggle as a result of the system imposed upon me. I d I don’t mean that as a victim, but I think it’s a consequence of the coercive control.

33:16 I hold no there’s no space for blame in staying as long as I did. I think everybody has their time and their journey to to go through and I I recognise that f for some listeners and also others I’ve shared my story with, it it is hard to reconcile. You know, why would you stay? Why did you go back? But

33:37 until you’ve been in it, stuck in it and and under that coercive control, you just can’t possibly understand.

33:45 it’s the hardest thing you could ever do. I mean, you were shunned, which is even harder, you know, you lose your whole world at one kind of meeting. Exactly.

33:56 One foul story. Yeah.

33:58 Yeah.

33:59 It’s a it’s just a clean cut and there’s no there’s there’s I guess i in a court if you are charged with something in most circumstances you actually have an opportunity at a later stage to be able to challenge those charges and you have

34:16 Yeah.

34:16 someone acting for you and defending you

34:20 Yeah.

34:21 y in the in this setting in the organisation.

34:25 you are out on an island alone and

34:27 Yeah.

34:28 you have no recourse at

34:31 Yeah.

34:31 Yeah, it’s full on.

34:32 What what did you find the hardest when you first left in terms of being in the worldly world?

34:40 I think that the first hardest thing for me was that was, as you mentioned, you know, you you go on a deconstruction journey, but actually realizing that leaving wasn’t it.

34:51 Yeah.

34:52 So you leave, but there’s still a whole lot more to come. There’s still a whole lot of work to do. And whilst

34:57 Yeah. Yeah.

35:01 the l the act of leaving is liberating and y you do have a deep breath, that sigh of relief, it was so felt so insurmountable when I realised what I still had a ahead of me. And

35:15 Yeah.

35:15 it just it almost felt like blow after blow after blow in terms of what I had

35:19 Yeah.

35:20 to deconstruct, as well as having two young people to support. Yeah,

35:25 Yeah.

35:26 I so I think

35:28 I think that and also what I had to unlearn, you know,

35:30 Yeah.

35:31 I had to give myself permission to just be. trusting myself was the most challenging, it still is.

35:39 Yeah.

35:40 Understanding I wasn’t beholden to anyone, I wasn’t in trouble, no one was going to tell on me. But actually, along with

35:48 That learning about having to deconstruct it was a comment somebody else had made about how, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, we’re actually raised, we’re taught and live as though we are immortal. And

36:03 Yeah.

36:04 have to learn how to live as mortal. And that even those words sound bizarre to say, this is real life.

36:13 But that is the reality. It there Yeah.

36:15 Yeah, I I

36:17 yeah, because we didn’t have that end of times kind of thing. And I just think I’d love to do a whole episode on that aspect alone because I think that’s a whole different mindset that you’re raised with. and there’s a lot I think that’s inside that mindset in terms of well I’m gonna live to get I’m gonna live forever in the kingdom of

36:40 greatness and yeah. So for you it was knowing that you were a mortal.

36:45 Yes, that that there is an end day. That th like that this is it. Like this is right now there isn’t

36:52 something cut there isn’t a a pending ac activity that’s going to happen because you live in that state. Gotta be ready.

36:59 Right.

37:00 Any any time all the time Armageddon is coming like a thief in the night today. And I

37:06 Right. So it’s a a

37:08 a real sense of urgency to get everything done. Right.

37:12 constant. Be

37:14 be ready. So I I guess there’s also almost a morning that goes along with that because it’s a whole self adjustment in how you live. And like you say, you could spend a whole episode probably unpacking that.

37:28 I’d yeah, I’d really like to a at some stage, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, so there yeah, you’re in a constant state of having to be ready and a a sense of urgency I imagine. Which a

37:40 Yeah.

37:41 actually adds a whole new layer of pressure on top of everything else. Yeah.

37:46 You’re living

37:47 on high on high alert. And are you doing

37:49 Yeah, the whole time.

37:50 enough? And have you proven yourself

37:53 Mm.

37:54 just this constant turmoil and anguish of

37:57 Yeah.

37:58 am I enough?

37:59 Yeah. Yeah.

38:00 Yeah, it’s amazing, isn’t it? What do you think, what do you think helped start you in the direction of building your own life? A life that felt like yours?

38:10 A life that felt like mine. I I think time, I think they’re just like time has just had to pass.

38:19 Yeah.

38:20 I honestly had to learn who who I was, what did

38:23 Yeah.

38:24 I like, what did I enjoy, what kind of person was I? Because when you leave, the assumption is you become a terrible person.

38:34 that that

38:34 Yeah.

38:35 so you’re like I said, you’re either in or you’re out and if you’re out, you’re back.

38:38 Are you an apostate

38:39 in the J Dubs? Do they call you an apostate? Yeah.

38:42 I think that they probably would. I don’t consider

38:45 myself because I that’s just not something I but they would. Absolutely.

38:50 Yeah.

38:51 Absolutely they would. And they would happily label that me that. And that helps them sleep because

38:55 Mm. Yes.

38:58 That’s how they make sense of things.

39:00 Well, y

39:00 if you’re an apostate you’re no longer human, so You don’t have to have empathy with them. Yeah. It’s horrendous.

39:04 No. And there no, because I’m nothing. Yeah. So there there’s very much

39:12 been a a reclamation of self and living authentically with a clear identity of who I am and really fully

39:20 Yeah.

39:21 embracing that.

39:22 Yeah. What were the things that helped you to find your identity?

39:27 I I would say again that safety I had at home

39:32 Rise.

39:33 actually the support from my my children as well and and

39:35 That’s wow, yeah.

39:37 it kind of having some allies on the journey, you know, a a support

39:41 Right.

39:42 party.

39:43 I think I attended De COLT quite soon

39:46 Right.

39:47 after all this had occurred. And that that was

39:49 Wow.

39:50 huge for me. It was

39:52 Yeah.

39:53 transformational, it was confronting, but very connective. But for me it cemented I was right where I was supposed to be. Yeah.

40:01 Yeah, I found that too. Yeah.

40:04 So speaking out, talking about my experience.

40:08 I I think well I like to think that maybe I challenge the idea that survivors look a certain way, are a certain type of person. I’ve had people comment you don’t look like somebody who would have been in a cult because you know they associate it with a particular kind of

40:27 Yeah.

40:29 and

40:30 Hi.

40:31 yeah, yeah, which isn’t the case at all.

40:34 No. Some of the most intelligent people I’ve met.

40:38 Mm.

40:38 Well educated, technically brilliant, yeah,

40:40 Yes, they target them. Yeah.

40:44 it doesn’t discriminate.

40:46 It doesn’t not not at all. Yeah. And I think

40:47 Poor or rich. In fact they Yeah.

40:52 that you know, that’s another reason I I’m vocal is to combat that self blame and that stigma that can exist because no,

41:01 Yeah.

41:02 we don’t all look the same, we don’t all wear a funny set of clothes. No, I no my husband was not in wearer a normal

41:11 Kiwi family mostly. So

41:14 Yeah, yeah.

41:16 I think it helps break down some of the barriers that may exist for

41:21 Yeah.

41:22 for people in in getting support. Yeah.

41:25 think so too and I’m that’s a big part of the reason we’re doing this podcast is that let’s share the voices, let’s hear the voices.

41:33 Yes.

41:34 The more voices that speak out and are heard, the less discrimination or the less lonely you might feel if you are leaving a coercive spiritual group or

41:47 even, you know, a coercive church, which there are a lot of, you know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a cult, but I think it’s so lonely without other people’s voices or experiences that can be heard. Yeah. Yeah.

42:02 It is. Yeah,

42:03 it is.

42:04 what would be what’s something that you would we’re kind of getting to wind up time, which is

42:11 Mm.

42:11 a shame because I’d love to keep talking for ages.

42:14 maybe we’ll have to get you back.

42:16 yeah. but what would you is there a practice that you do that helps you on a daily basis to kind of deal with cult think?

42:26 I mean aside from all of those, I don’t want to say cliche, but those t accessible tools, you know, your mindfulness, your

42:35 Yeah.

42:36 d breathing, the self-soothing exercises, I think

42:41 Yeah.

42:42 what’s really become part of my own healing journey, which wouldn’t be for everyone, is you know, religion has no place in in my life. But

42:51 I have found that spirituality does in many different forms. So

42:54 Right. Great.

42:56 I I use that as it it fills that space in my life.

43:01 Yeah.

43:02 I also really, excuse me, have found my work with recovering from religion to be really, truly healing.

43:09 Really you Yeah.

43:10 Yeah, for sure. Right, so we’ve got a couple of kind of rapid fire questions.

43:15 if you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

43:20 I would say enough. You’ve done enough. You’ve had enough. You are enough.

43:24 Yeah, I think that’s it.

43:25 Beautiful. I

43:27 love that. What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

43:32 You can’t put a date on it. There is no right time. And the journey can be occurring for someone mentally for years before they decide to take that step.

43:44 For JWs especially, there’s such a strong secular distrust that they are so exceptionally isolated from accessing resources. And

43:54 Absolutely.

43:55 you just there’s so many factors why someone might stay. And I’d just like to end with a a or paraphrase a weak quote that I feel really sums it up.

44:06 by Chris Rinali, who’s a philosopher, talking about indoctrination, that

44:11 Mm.

44:12 indoctrinated minds can be sharp and well read, but are united in treating doubt as danger and counter evidence as enemy attack.

44:22 And the antidote isn’t better arguments, but creating safe spaces where changing your mind is treated as courage rather than betrayal or weakness. Any belief

44:32 I know, isn’t it wonderful? It’s it ends any

44:35 belief that comes prepackaged with the instruction that seriously questioning it is either irrational or immoral. It’s a psychological cage, a cage where the door in and out stays barred. So

44:50 I believe we need to keep creating safe spaces for those ready to escape the cage and it’s why I’m so incredibly grateful for the work that people such as yourselves are doing, the work of Decult, the survivors,

45:03 Yeah.

45:04 the advocates, the documentary makers, all the sharers. Yeah.

45:08 It’s awesome, isn’t it? Yeah. And your work, the work you’re doing.

45:13 Pat on the back.

45:14 Yeah.

45:15 Thank you so much, for your time today. And I I think it’d be it’d be great

45:17 Thank you.

45:21 to have a have you come in and talk maybe about your work sometime and that the whole

45:26 that would be amazing.

45:27 Armagem getum topic would be really interesting too. So Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

45:31 Well, that’s a big one.

45:33 yeah. Maybe we could do a panel. I’d quite like to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

45:36 That would be great. That would be great. Yeah.

45:39 Alright, now we wrap up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you, Zara, for coming along. I know your story will inspire and bring hope to many people. Thank you for spending time with us today, listeners. We know these stories can stir a lot, and we’re grateful that you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to feel.

46:05 If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, reach out if you need to. You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.

00:41 Welcome back to Unspun. While we did it, we’ve released our first episodes and honestly, we couldn’t think of a better time to pause and reflect. When we first started this podcast, we had a simple hope to create a space where people with lived experience of high control groups and coercive relationships could share their stories with honesty, compassion and without sensationalism.

01:05 What we didn’t expect was just how much these conversations would shape us too.

01:10 Over the past ten episodes we’ve had the privilege of hearing incredible stories of courage, loss, resilience, and recovery. We’ve laughed, cried, been challenged, and found ourselves thinking about these conversations long after the microphones were turned off. One thing that’s become really clear is that no two stories are the same, but there are threads that run through them all.

01:30 Yeah. Today we’re stepping away from interviewing guests and instead having a conversation with each other. We’ll be reflecting on what it’s been like to be first-time podcasters, what we’ve learned about recovery, why these stories matter, and some of the patterns we’ve noticed across our guests’ experiences.

01:48 Recovering we’ve discovered isn’t simply about leaving a group, it’s about rebuilding trust, recovering, rediscovering identity, learning to live with uncertainty, finding our voice again, and slowly home coming home to it yourself. So grab a cup of tea, settle in and join us as we look back on our first episodes.

02:08 This will be our first episode on YouTube. If you want to catch our earlier pods, look for Unspun on all the platforms. So today we’re going to be asking each other questions and Jaya will kick us off.

02:20 So when we first started Unspun, what what were we hoping it would become?

02:25 Well, for me, I was wanting it to become an evergreen resource for people who are leaving high control groups, cults, or experiencing like religious trauma. and I think that, you know, we’re making a really strong start in that direction and the feedback’s been pretty awesome about those like participating in the podcast and also those listening so far. Do you think?

02:48 Yeah, yeah, the the response has been really great and and people really understand what we’re doing. it feels that we’re providing a podcast that is a little bit different from all the rest.

02:59 Yeah.

03:00 because we’re so focused on recovery and and I think I think I think the survivors most of all appreciate that.

03:07 Yeah, I agree. Yeah, for sure. Jaya has been making the podcast what you expected.

03:15 no, I’ve I have done a few podcasts in the past and everyone is different.

03:20 Right.

03:22 Yeah, it it’s it’s I didn’t expect to to be so moving. you know, it’s listening to people’s stories they can be quite emotionally affecting. So when you come out of a podcast, it’s it’s

03:36 You know, it’s a it’s a nice feeling and you know, you’ve wrapped up another podcast and you thank the guest, but you know, there’s a quite often there’s a bit in your heart where you feel for them and it can be quite emotional sometimes.

03:49 Yeah, I would totally agree. I yeah, that’s that’s what I didn’t expect either. And the

03:55 Yeah.

03:56 I think the empowering nature of hearing those story stories, but also for the guests, like that’s the feedback we’ve been getting that it’s quite an empowering process, which has surprised me.

04:09 Hm. And i is that is that something that you’ve enjoyed most about becoming a podcaster is empowering the guests?

04:15 Yeah, particularly with this podcast for sure. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

04:20 What’s been harder than you imagined?

04:22 finding a diversity of guests.

04:25 Mm-hmm.

04:27 we we’re overwhelmed with ex Jehovah’s Witnesses. they seem to be prolific, certainly in this area.

04:34 Yeah.

04:37 but it’s it it’s been finding people that are

04:40 that are al along their healing journey enough that they’ve they’ve had time to process it and they understand it and and they can explain it. And a lot of people that we come across who we might like to have on the podcast who or who want to be on the podcast maybe aren’t ready because they’re still they’re

04:57 Yeah, yeah.

04:58 still processing a lot and

05:01 Yeah.

05:02 they they’re still sort of going through that healing process. So

05:05 You know, that’s that’s been quite hard to find the right the right candidates ’cause we really need people who who’ve been through it a little bit and and and understand what they’ve been through.

05:15 Yeah, and they’ve got kind of really good we need people who have good insight into their recovery and kind of how they got there.

05:23 Yeah.

05:24 Yeah. Yeah.

05:25 Yeah. It’s it’s been it’s been interesting because we’ve we’ve aired ten episodes, and we’ve got a lot more in the bag. But you know, it seems that there are themes that keep appearing, you know, throughout all these episodes and and you know, maybe you can talk through some of those themes that have popped up.

05:45 Yeah. I think the themes that I’m hearing are I guess what struck me is around deconstruction. I didn’t really have a strong perception or strong idea about deconstruction and how much of an importance that plays in your recovery jour journey. And I think

06:08 like p in particular I think it’s one of the most important things for survivors of high control and cult groups. so that’s one theme that’s come across. I think the other theme too is depending on whether you were born into a cult or whether you joined one, the experiences are

06:30 not different but there’s a different I don’t know quite how to say it. When you’re born into a cult and and it’s all you know, the experience of leaving is so the journey is long and difficult and it’s such a I think it because you’re bo raised in it, it’s embedded in you in such a deep way.

06:52 whereas

06:52 Yeah.

06:53 a join as an adult, you have an experience of what life was like before the cult. So I believe it’s easier to go back than to leave if you were born into it. That was another thing.

07:06 Well, yeah,

07:07 I’m as I I mean we were both born into into cults and I I was

07:11 Yeah.

07:12 you know, I was you know, I’m fifty one now and I’m still unraveling behaviors and memories and all kinds of things that I’ve learned. th that I picked up as as

07:22 Yeah.

07:23 growing up in a cult and I’m still learning to shed those today, you know, the

07:28 Yeah. I am totally.

07:29 it it’s surprising that even

07:30 you know, s things come up.

07:33 Yeah.

07:34 and yeah

07:36 The grade.

07:37 I I mean I’ve been surprised by a lot of things about people’s journeys and some of the threads and themes that keep coming up and one of them being one of them that surprised me was that a lot of leavers don’t

07:52 want to leave their spirituality behind. and quite

07:56 Yeah, yeah, that’s a really good point. Yep.

07:59 and and quite often they are searching for something else and they’ll go to another church or they’ll look into some Eastern philosophy or and I I you know, I was surprised by that because for me the last thing I wanted when I left Falangong

08:16 in twenty twelve the last thing I wanted was to have anything to do with the cult or anyone or any other religion. And

08:24 Yeah.

08:24 yeah, I just I just sort of it wasn’t that I threw the baby out with a bathwater, I just didn’t believe in anything anymore. Yeah,

08:30 You threw the baby and the bathwater out.

08:33 no, I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t believe and

08:37 Yeah.

08:37 you know to d to this day I’m very skeptical about anything religious or spiritual.

08:42 I’m very cautious. but I d you know, I don’t

08:45 Yeah.

08:45 judge others for having those beliefs, but it was just something that surprised me. And the other thing that surprised me was you know, ’cause Falun Gong has quite anti homo you know, like very homophobic and some racist qualities to

09:03 Yeah.

09:04 to the cult and you know, I sort of

09:06 when I left I sort of I’ve I left all of that behind. I didn’t carry that on. I didn’t I didn’t sort of continue that homophobic view. because it was never really a part of me. But

09:13 Yes, that perspective. Yeah.

09:18 I found that some survivors who come out, especially those who are born into cults, have a much more stronger feeling about things like homophobia and

09:29 And things like that they they still sort of hold on to onto those beliefs which, you know, is in a sub in a way quite shocking, but

09:38 Yeah.

09:40 in another way it’s completely understandable. And again I think we just have to remember that’s that’s part of their journey and it’s not necessarily where they’ll end up, you know, like they not they might not necessarily

09:50 Absolutely.

09:51 stay like that.

09:52 Yeah. I get sorry.

09:53 so it there’s a lot of like

09:55 with yeah, with with Uncult and the and the podcast, you know, we have t we have to you and I have to be able to be non judgmental and compassionate to people whilst holding similar or different viewpoints, you know,

10:11 Yeah.

10:12 conflict conflicting viewpoints and that’s you know,

10:15 Yeah.

10:15 that’s that’s been a surprise to me.

10:17 Right, yeah. Sure. I th to your

10:17 I mean

10:20 earlier point about people leaving and not wanting to leave their spirituality behind, like for me when I left, I immediately jumped into something different. So I kinda went cult hopping for a while. I wanted

10:34 Mm.

10:35 something to replace because I think when you leave you leave this whole system that sets your life up.

10:42 And I’m

10:42 Hm.

10:43 like, I but I need something to help me or to guide me and it it helped me to feel not so lost.

10:52 Mm-hmm.

10:52 but the danger I think in that is that you make yourself vulnerable to just go to another cult. Yeah. So I guess I can understand

10:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean

11:01 the need. Yeah.

11:03 totally I went cult hopping after I left home and that’s how I ended up in Falun Gong.

11:06 Mm. Yeah.

11:10 but yeah it was you know, luckily you know, the the cults I were involved in I didn’t get inv I g I didn’t get too heavily involved in and the cult I was born in was not as destructive as Falun Gong.

11:24 Yeah.

11:26 you know, Falun Gong was very destructive and very extreme and

11:30 you know, sort of change my view on everything. and talking about that, you

11:31 Yes. Yeah. You’d kinda had your fill by

11:37 then, is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

11:38 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I talk

11:42 I mean talking about you know, having your perspective changed, has has any of the guests that we’ve had completely changed your perspective or informed your perspective on on how leaving

11:54 I I don’t

11:56 a cult is?

11:57 I don’t think I’ve had my perspectives completely changed, but I think it’s helped me clarify or understand the process a bit better or how people react to leaving and what they do to help themselves kind of re find or sometimes find their own voice.

12:16 I really Jonas was one of the people we interviewed that helped me clarify the activism around being in a cult or protesting

12:28 Yeah.

12:29 cults, especially with his perspectives on it being a human rights issue. Like for me that helped me understand that it’s not

12:39 necessarily about all the sensationalist, terrible, ghastly things that happen, but more about people’s ability to determine their own future, to get education,

12:51 Mm-hmm.

12:52 to have a right to earn their own money, those kind of things. And I think when

12:58 Mm-hmm.

12:58 we bring the arguments back to human rights,

13:01 It enables religions, spiritual organizations to exist, but with the goal of enabling people to have their rights. That was big for me. Yeah.

13:13 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, totally.

13:16 Mm. Have these conversations changed the way you understand your own experience?

13:21 yeah, yeah, absolutely. you know they quite often spark off memories, and you relate your own experience to

13:29 Yeah.

13:30 anyone you’re interview interviewing. So y you know, if they talk about a s a situation that’s happened to them, and it’s happened to you, y you sort of compare and

13:40 and you know, and contrast and and sort of say, you know, w was that the same for me, how was it different?

13:46 Yes, yeah.

13:49 I I think you know, I wouldn’t say changed as in like a sea change or or like a massive change, but they’re

13:57 Yeah.

13:57 certainly given me a much more broader perspective on on my own situation

14:04 And

14:05 Yeah.

14:06 I find that the mo as I go along the more nuanced and complex it gets. there’s so much to it and

14:13 Yeah.

14:16 I mean for for me I think w one of the biggest realizations I think going through this whole process is that

14:24 Recovery really is a lifelong journey. especially

14:27 Yeah, definitely.

14:30 if you’ve been born into a cult. You know, that

14:32 Mm-hmm.

14:32 it you know, it’s a it’s a lifelong journey of recovery. But even if you’ve just been in a cult for a few years, the damage looks the same to me. You know, you know, we

14:41 Yeah.

14:41 have we’ll we’ll have eight people round the table and some have just left a cult and some left a cult thirty years ago.

14:47 And yet everyone’s still talking about the same thing, about the same problems,

14:51 Yeah.

14:51 about coercive control, about shame, about anger, about guilt, all of these all of these emotions that you experience when you come out. And you know, that

15:02 Yeah yeah.

15:03 you know, that’s very interesting.

15:05 Yeah, I found that too and what I really was powerful me for me we also run a support group, so that’s why we’re talking about the group. But yeah, what was power for

15:16 powerful for me in the group was that, you know, I’d be sharing my story and there’d be people in the room from, you know, so many different and varied groups and they’d be all nodding their heads in agreement, like they knew

15:29 Mm-hmm.

15:30 what I was saying and I know what they are saying. And that’s pretty incredible. Yeah.

15:36 Yeah,

15:36 it’s it’s it’s one of the most valuable parts of gathering face to face and there’s something about the energy in the room when

15:44 Yeah.

15:44 everyone realizes they’re in a safe space and they’re not gonna be judged and they can just

15:49 Yeah.

15:50 say what they wanna say and people will understand, they don’t have to explain it, people just get it. And I think just that aspect in it

15:58 in itself a al alone is such a relief for people. yeah, and it

16:02 Doesn’t it? Yeah, I think so too.

16:05 and it’s it’s something I mean sure you can get it online and online groups, but I feel like it’s much better in person.

16:13 Yeah.

16:14 you know, yeah, where you can get all the fuels.

16:17 Absolutely.

16:18 So so to you, Alisa, w what do you think recovery actually is?

16:25 that’s such a big question. I’m not a hundred percent sure how to answer that. I guess it’s a process. and I’m not too sure about the term recovery. I don’t know if I like it or not, but it’s the word we’ve got, I guess. like

16:39 it’s probably more a better word is probably discovery, like we’re discovering new stuff all the time about ourselves and as we look back we’re discovering new angles of our journey. and so

16:54 The other thing I guess is it’s not linear. We can feel like we’re progressing and feel really free of the experience sometimes and then, you know, something will happen during our day and you’ll go, you know, I’m right back to that small person who doesn’t have a voice and that can be really upsetting.

17:13 I suppose also recovery suggests that you had a life outside of a cult before. So

17:19 Exactly, yeah.

17:20 if you were bought into a cult, re recovering what exactly? What are you recovering? You know.

17:24 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

17:27 but it I mean it I think it means more in terms of re recovering your h humanity.

17:32 Yeah.

17:33 I think that’s what it means. Perhaps healing healing journey is a better

17:37 Yeah.

17:37 is a

17:38 you know, is a better way to say it. But yeah, i i recovery does mean different things to different people, you know, because of their

17:45 Yeah, it does.

17:46 various experiences.

17:48 I

17:48 think it’s the closest kind of term we’ve got and I’m quite a s I studied anthropology, so language means a lot to me. but I’m I

17:56 Yeah, yeah. Language is very important.

17:59 it is and but so I think recovery, the word is really good. People understand it, it’s very clear, it’s a clear concept. and a lot of people from other areas, like addiction,

18:11 understand that language, but yeah, I th it’s yeah, it’s a process for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

18:17 it is a long process.

18:19 Before we started the podcast, what did you think that recovery looked like? Has that changed, do you think?

18:26 well I w you know, I w went through it I think it’s different for different people, but my experience was that it was very traumatic. it was

18:36 Yeah.

18:36 traumatizing to go through therapy, traumatizing to realise that I had been in a cult.

18:43 Mm.

18:44 and you you suddenly have all of these sort of cascade of feelings.

18:49 Yeah.

18:50 you know, anger that you you’ve missed out on life, that you’re behind your peers, that you’ve been duped, that your health isn’t any good, perhaps your relationship

18:59 Yeah.

19:00 isn’t as good as it should be with your partner. so all of that stuff is really, really heavy heavy stuff and quite often you’re going through all of it at once. and I so so that’s the

19:11 Yeah. It’s like a almost floor of shit.

19:15 That is what recovery looked like for me, but it’s not necessarily

19:19 Mm.

19:20 like that for everyone.

19:22 Yeah.

19:23 I think I think the answer is is recovery looks different for every for every person, although

19:29 Yeah.

19:29 there are similar threads going through and I think you know, talking about similar threads, you know, I I I find that people get stuck in the weeds about

19:38 determining what a cult is, for example.

19:42 Yeah.

19:44 but you know, it’s easy to define when you look at it through the lens of coercion and control. so you don’t have

19:51 Yeah. Range.

19:52 to sort of mark off a checklist of things that make it a cult or not. If there’s

19:58 Yeah.

19:58 coercion and control, then that’s enough. You know, that

20:01 Yeah.

20:02 it you don’t have to name it a cult if you don’t want to, but if there’s coercion and control

20:06 in the group that you’re in, then that’s enough to you know, to to make you want to leave. And you know, that you know, that looks different for everyone.

20:17 Yeah, does. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

20:19 Wha what about you? What ab going through this process,

20:22 You know, y you’ve you know, we’ve talked to various cult leavers and you know, what’s what’s the is there one thing that you’ve learned about healing that you didn’t know before?

20:34 Good question. Hard question. I don’t know. I I I guess because I’m a therapist I have a pretty broad knowledge about that sort of thing. I think what has actually I think what is new and I did know this before, but the it’s been put more sharply into focus was

20:54 the ability of creativity to play a huge role in recovery. You know, like we’ve had musicians, we’ve had comedians, we’ve had artists, all sorts of people doing really creative things and it’s been so

21:09 Yeah.

21:10 crucial for their recovery to be able to I guess find that sense of flow

21:17 And in something that’s so absorbing that helps you to step outside of yourself, but also give you a sense of achievement and s individuality. That’s

21:30 Yeah.

21:30 been I guess that’s been you is realising the depth or the power of creativity to create change, yeah.

21:39 Yeah, I

21:39 I’ve definitely noticed that that especially in in survivors that have an art an an artistic outlet of some kind, to

21:48 Yeah.

21:49 me they seem to deal with it better. Their

21:51 Yeah.

21:51 their process is you know, not saying it’s not any harder or difficult, but they they do seem to handle the situation better and they seem to be doing better.

22:01 You know, those those with a creative outlet, whether it be com you know, a comedian or music or art or whatever it is.

22:09 Filmmaking. There’s

22:10 so much you can do with creativity. Yeah.

22:13 Yeah, I I think I mean, going back to what we were talking about, you know, about the word recovery, you know, recovery isn’t just about leaving, it’s about rebuilding.

22:23 Yeah.

22:26 have you noticed that?

22:27 absolutely. Yeah. I think that kind of discovering things that you’re really passionate about, like creativity, is I think that’s one of the key things that I believe helps people recover. Yeah. Something you can really stick

22:41 And what it

22:42 yourself into that you identify with. ‘Cause we’re both artists too. So we’re both

22:46 Well yeah Yeah, yeah

22:48 w we w yeah, absolutely.

22:49 kinda know that on a really deep level as well. Yeah.

22:53 Yeah, no my my art is my salvation. It ki you know, it keeps me going when I’m when I you know I I’m a la at a lack of what to do with myself, I can just focus on my art for a while.

23:05 Yeah.

23:06 And it’s it’s kind of like meditation.

23:08 Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

23:10 And it’s also at the beginning of my healing process, you know, I I did a lot of art around my therapy. It’s very specific to my therapy,

23:18 Mm-hmm.

23:19 art sort of depict

23:21 the therapy tools and you know like safe spaces and all these all all these tools. So I

23:25 interesting. Yeah.

23:28 I took all of these tools to help remind me to to use them and and so I made them into a piece of art. And so I look at that art and I, you know, okay, this is the tool that I need for this situation.

23:41 Yeah.

23:43 and I I think one of the things that can that came up in

23:46 and my recovery and my therapy was you know the the big one of the biggest things going in actually was identity. you know, I I

23:53 Absolutely.

23:54 wanna I wanted to know what was Falongong, what was cult and what was me. And because

24:00 Yeah.

24:01 cults had been part of my life almost all of my life, you know, I d I had just I had

24:04 Yeah, speaking

24:06 no nowhere to start. And

24:08 Yeah.

24:08 I was gonna ask you, you know, why why do you think that that’s a thing that comes up in nearly every conversation we have with survivors is why why do you think identity is so important as a a as a topic?

24:21 because when you’re in a place of coercive control or in a cult you lose your identity. Like the whole the sole purpose of a cult or a coercive group is that you function as a group. There’s no room for individuality. the group needs you to be to lose your identity in order for it to

24:46 reach its objectives. So

24:48 Yeah.

24:50 it’s not encouraged, it’s a actually discouraged. and it when you start to push back or when you have different ideas, that’s when the control really starts.

25:02 Yeah.

25:04 yeah, for sure. So identity is just that it’s huge in terms of being able to build your own life.

25:12 Being able to have your own voice and agency and being able to determine your future, yeah, it’s massive.

25:18 Yeah, yeah. Identity is is pretty much core in anyone’s healing journey.

25:24 Yeah. What do you think gives people hope?

25:27 well I think things like the group, like the support group, really give people hope.

25:32 Yeah. Yep.

25:35 when they go there and they’re quite surprised, look, there’s lots of other people here and

25:40 Mm.

25:40 wow, they’re f they’re you know and they get to see people’s different people are at different stages in the journey and they can see people that have

25:48 Yeah.

25:48 really really like you know, I’m thinking of people like Royden

25:52 Royden Gibbs

25:52 Hm.

25:52 who we interviewed, he’s an X JW, but he’s he’s come a long way and is really wise and

26:00 Yeah.

26:00 understands understands the the dynamics and the process and everything very well and he he’s an ex JW.

26:07 Yeah.

26:08 so I think of people like like Roydon and he

26:11 You know, he doesn’t need the group, as it were, to help himself, but he comes to the group to support others. Yeah, yeah. He’s there to support others

26:14 Yeah. Yeah, ’cause he’s all he’s kind of there. At many many ways.

26:21 and and that’s what we want. We want

26:24 Yeah.

26:25 we want a range of people, a a range of experiences so that when new people come, they can see that. You know, that there’s just not one story to the to the healing process. There’s not

26:37 one way out of this is not there’s not like a twelve step programme that you follow, you know. It’s it’s

26:41 Yeah, exactly.

26:42 really, really differ it’s really, really unique for everyone. So I think when people get in

26:46 Yeah.

26:46 that room and they see other people’s journeys and you know, the group’s a very happy place. That’s one of

26:52 Mm.

26:53 the things I like about it. It’s you know, we we have a laugh sometimes. you know, it’s it’s a very warm and accepting place. And I think when you come

27:02 into that and you’re not being judged or questioned or you know, why didn’t you leave sooner? Why blah blah blah, you know, the all those

27:10 Yeah.

27:11 stupid questions you get asked. so I think that gives people hope, you know. really do. Yeah. More than more than anything.

27:16 Yeah, I agree. ‘Cause you yeah, in the group you can

27:20 see people at different stages of their kind of leaving process. Like you say, we’ve got people who have been out for thirty years, we’ve got people who’ve been out for a year, and you get to see I guess all the stages and people who are going through therapy and people, you know, are meeting new partners and you’re seeing their life expand and grow. Yeah.

27:43 yeah, that’s a

27:43 Yeah.

27:44 great answer. Yeah.

27:45 That’s a great thing, isn’t it? Yeah.

27:47 Yeah.

27:47 So I think you know, i the thing is yeah, it’s an essential part of the healing journey meeting meeting others like you and knowing that you’re not alone.

27:56 Yeah.

27:57 and I suppose I suppose that’s why Survivor stories matter like what we’re doing

28:04 Yeah.

28:04 You know,

28:04 having a resource where people who are leaving they can come in and they go, there’s someone from this cult, I’m interested in hearing what their story is.

28:09 Hmm. Yeah.

28:12 that’s similar to mine and then they listen to a few others. I mean, for y for you, Elisa, why d why do you think survivor stories matter?

28:18 I think they’re hugely important. I guess like for me, whenever I’ve been going through a hard time, I used to just like search people’s stories online or get books and read about other people’s stories. A because I don’t feel so alone in my own kind of anguish when I know someone else out s has been through the same thing.

28:41 B because I can learn tips of strategies that worked, that helped people, so that then I can try them as well. C is telling your own story is so empowering. There’s something about speaking it out into the world that enables you to learn new things about your story or gain new perspectives.

29:02 Which, I think has been surprising around the podcast as well. But yeah, I think survival stories, especially in the cult cultural space, is maybe new in the way that we’re doing it, because our focus is on what helped you, not the horrible, disgusting things that happened to you.

29:22 Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think I think that’s somewhat of a relief to a lot of people when when we’re

29:28 Yeah.

29:29 talking about it.

29:30 Yeah. Like we’re survivor focused. Yeah.

29:33 Absolutely.

29:34 Yeah.

29:35 What happens do you think, Joan, when people finally have the opportunity to stell tell their stories? What have you noticed?

29:41 well sometimes it involves tears, you know, and that’s

29:45 Mm, yeah.

29:46 us it’s usually of relief

29:49 Mm.

29:49 or happiness. you know, someone will s you know, be telling their story and the tears will start coming down. and everyone just gives them the space and time

29:59 to to to work through those emotions.

30:03 Yeah.

30:03 And and I think that is such a relief for people. I think that’s the huge things. is that

30:08 Yeah.

30:08 it’s I think a lot of weight is taken off their shoulders. I know that from my own personal experience, you know, w when I first told my story publicly, I broke down and cried.

30:20 in front of a whole crowd of people I didn’t know. And

30:23 but afterwards I felt incredibly light. I felt

30:26 Yeah.

30:27 free. I felt, you know, unburdened in some way.

30:31 Liberations.

30:33 yeah, liberated. So you know, I think w telling survivors telling their story is really important.

30:40 not just for other survivors, just but just for themselves, I think it’s actually part of the healing process. and

30:47 Yeah, I think it can be for sure.

30:50 and I think I think telling the story it’s very empowering. finally they’re being listened to

30:56 you know, whereas in the cult they you couldn’t question anything, you couldn’t really be honest, you couldn’t really be yourself, you had to be this

31:03 Yeah.

31:04 cult identity. So yeah, I think there’s a there’s just a huge amount of relief. and I think it’s important that people listen to their stories. You know, they the survivors want to be heard and and it’s

31:17 Yeah.

31:18 not

31:19 it’s not an intention seeking kind of thing. like I say, it’s part it’s

31:23 Yeah, definitely no. Yeah.

31:25 it’s part like telling your story is part of your process and as you tell your story you get you get better at remembering things. Y and you you sort of when you f start tell f f when you first start telling your story you jump all over the place. And then as you tell your story more and more, you know, you sort of

31:44 gather a timeline of things that happened and what led up to this and ha you know, and you sort of get a better understanding of your own story and what happened.

31:54 Mm.

31:55 and and that is really important and it helps bring up repressed memories. Even if they’re unpleasant, it’s important that you remember them. You know, i I think, you know, there will come a time when

32:08 And I hope that time is sh you know, soon when accountability is gonna be seen in courts for, you

32:14 Yeah.

32:15 know, control and coercion. I think we’re very close to that now. And so those

32:18 Yeah.

32:19 getting those stories right in your head is very important. because,

32:22 Yeah.

32:23 you know, soon soon they’re gonna be told in in courts and and whatnot in i in front of the law.

32:29 Yeah.

32:29 And being confident in telling your story is really important.

32:32 Absolutely, yeah. What responsibilities do we have when people trust us with our stories in terms of the podcast?

32:40 We have so much responsibility. I feel I feel

32:42 Yeah.

32:43 like it I feel like it’s a very a very delicate scenario. we’ve got to be sort of

32:49 Not hand holding but but being being an ally.

32:54 And creating a

32:55 space that feels safe and comfortable. Yeah.

32:57 Exactly. Yeah.

32:59 Yeah. And being being an ally, and just giving them the space to think about things, not hurrying them, not

33:06 Yeah.

33:06 not forcing questions on them, not trying to pull out juicy details. It’s it’s really just to let them tell their story in the most authentic way. And

33:16 Yeah.

33:18 And some sometimes we have to rem like they’ll have told us some stuff outside of the podcast and sometimes we need to remind them, what about that story that you told me? So you know, we we we we have some sort of guardianship over making sure that they you know, they don’t forget things and they they tell the whole story at the at at the right time. So there’s you know, it’s a yeah, it’s

33:39 Yeah.

33:39 a huge it’s a huge responsibility.

33:42 It

33:42 is and I

33:43 like sometimes people will have their story and you can just well I think I can just see in their kind of expression how how intense that was. Not n necessarily intense in a bad way, but it’s kinda like I always offer to give them a call the next day and kind of debrief the conversation and just check in to make sure they’re doing okay ’cause it can be

34:08 I you can feel quite vulnerable after sharing your story, but kind of without

34:12 Mm-hmm.

34:14 yeah, everyone I’ve rang back has like really valued the process of coming on the podcast. I haven’t had any yeah.

34:21 Yeah. Yeah.

34:23 It’s it’s the same with the group, like when we have you know, a a a a heavy session if i if if you want to call it that, it’s maybe, you know, there’s some tears or there’s just some big realizations and you can

34:35 Yeah.

34:36 you can tell that in the room. You know, I always remind people just just to look after themselves for the next couple of days, you know, that stuff might come out.

34:43 Absolutely.

34:44 Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

34:44 you know, stuff might come up, and

34:47 to be especially c so we we get couples quite a lot, you know, who’ve left a

34:52 Hmm.

34:53 cult together and, you know, it they you know, I always say just be kind to each other, you know, you’re both gonna

34:59 Yeah.

35:00 be in a sensitive state. just be gentle and have some compassion, you know.

35:04 Absolutely.

35:06 Yeah, so y yeah, we we have we have a lot of

35:10 We have a duty of care, you know. We have a lot of responsibility,

35:12 For sure.

35:14 yeah.

35:15 So

35:15 I I suppose it’s time to talk to start talking about looking ahead in terms of the podcast.

35:20 Mm yeah.

35:23 after ten episodes, where do you w where do you hope Unspun goes next?

35:29 I think I’d I’m really happy just doing people’s stories, but I’d also like to do some conversation on some maybe more specialized topics. we’ve got one coming up and I think we’re we’ll be discussing interesting things like desire.

35:46 and how that’s kind of squashed in a cult and how you can regain that. yeah, so maybe like looking at things in a bit of a narrower narrow narrower lens. I I find it really difficult to say that

36:00 Yeah we

36:02 word all of a sudden, but yeah.

36:04 Yeah, we had that great session with Doctor Caroline Ansley who came

36:08 Yeah.

36:09 to the group and explained to everyone how the health system works. And there

36:14 Mm.

36:14 was lots of interesting insights into that.

36:18 Absolutely.

36:19 and it’ll be it I think and it was totally focused on recovery and and healing,

36:23 Yeah.

36:24 you know. and I think that might be a good topic to have for an episode is maybe get maybe get her on

36:30 Absolutely.

36:31 and and

36:31 retalk about that session she gave us in the group.

36:33 Yeah. That a yeah, I think that would be awesome.

36:37 Yeah, I think that’d be really cool. I mean, that’s that’s a topic I’m interested to explore is is to talk about health professionals and and recovery.

36:48 Yeah. Yeah, that’d be great. What conversations do you think are still missing or that we haven’t covered yet?

36:54 I I think there’s just so many cults out there. you know, I feel like I’ve I’ve been shocked at the amount of cults that have come along that I’ve never heard of. yeah. I Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

37:03 Same. And I we’re just ripe for new ones this our world right now. Everyone’s looking for somewhere

37:15 to belong, yeah.

37:16 Yeah, I I I think you know the the conversations that are missing are, you know, other cults that are very quiet and haven’t haven’t really had any sort of plobicity or whatever. I mean, whenever we say cult in New Zealand, the first thing people think about is Gloriavale. And

37:33 Yeah.

37:33 Gloria Vale is not a typical cult, if you like. You know, it’s I mean it’s quite unique as far as cults go in New Zealand. a

37:42 Yes.

37:43 lo cults look a lot different than that. And I think the conversation I think the conversation that’s really missing is is that we need to stop trying to define define cults by

37:56 it’s got a charismatic leader and it’s got this and it’s got that and therefore it’s a cult. And I’m like, Well

38:00 Kind of tick box approach.

38:02 yeah, like I think I think that that’s irrelevant now, and we’ve got this, you know, developing law framework around coercion and control and and that’s I

38:11 Mm-hmm.

38:11 feel that that’s what the com conversation should be about. Is is this group or organization exacting coercion and control? If yes, then

38:19 Right, yeah.

38:20 something needs to be done about it. We don’t have to call it a

38:23 cult we can call it a high degr demand group or whatever, you know, whatever you whatever makes

38:27 Yeah.

38:27 people feel comfortable. But the point is is that we want more people to know, you know, that if they’re in a any sort of group, you know, marketing group, business, family, you know, these these sort of yeah

38:39 Self development, that’s a goodie.

38:42 self self help, wellness, you know,

38:45 Yeah.

38:45 they they they can all be cults.

38:48 Mm.

38:48 And so stop you know, I want people to stop sort of looking around and going, here’s the checkbox, does my does my organization fill in all these tick in all these boxes?

38:59 Mm.

38:59 All you have to say to yourself is is am I being coerced in any way? Am I being are my thoughts being controlled or is my life being controlled? Then you’re

39:07 Yeah.

39:08 you’re most likely in a cult or high demand situation and you

39:12 Yeah.

39:13 deserve to get out of there. So I think

39:15 I think that’s a massive public conversation that needs to be had on a society wide level.

39:21 Absolutely.

39:23 yeah, that’s that’s that’s what I think’s missing.

39:26 Yeah. Well we’re kinda coming to

39:27 Yeah, I mean

39:28 a bit more of a close. Shall we do some

39:30 Yeah.

39:31 rapid fire? I always love the good rapid fire questions.

39:35 Okay. All

39:36 One episode that really stayed with you.

39:38 it’s definitely Rusty’s

39:41 Yeah.

39:43 yeah, I just I he he he felt he’s like I’ve never been asked questions like this before and he really thought about his his answers and his

39:54 Yeah.

39:54 story is so fascinating and he’s a really funny guy. so I really enjoyed that yeah. What about you? What a wha biggest surprise?

39:57 He is, isn’t he? Biggest surprise. mine.

40:04 What about you?

40:05 I don’t I don’t know. Jonas stayed with me because it was just an interesting experience ’cause I saw his comedy show the night before and then we caught up at my house and his story

40:17 Yeah.

40:18 and he got upset about his goats and

40:21 It just really

40:22 That’s right.

40:24 and then we went out for lunch afterwards, so I guess that story really stayed with me. Yeah. What’s your biggest

40:30 Yeah, yeah.

40:31 surprise?

40:32 This is rapid five.

40:32 I don’t know.

40:33 Being rapid.

40:35 Sorry?

40:37 You’re not being rapid.

40:38 Sorry, sorry. I d ca I can’t think of a bigger surprise.

40:40 We’re running out of time. Hurry up.

40:43 What about you? What what was your biggest challenge?

40:46 My biggest challenge has been the technical aspect of running a podcast. That’s hard. Yeah.

40:52 For sure, for sure.

40:54 What’s your favourite moment?

40:55 my favorite moment was probably not from the podcast but from the group when one of the survivors was crying and she said, no, I’m not I’m not crying because I’m upset, I’m crying because I’m happy and and she gave me a big hug and that was really nice.

41:11 Aw, that’s

41:12 lovely.

41:12 What about you? Something you change your mind about?

41:15 what have I changed my mind about? I don’t think I’ve changed my mind about no, I don’t think I’ve changed my mind about anything. Yeah.

41:22 What about

41:23 Yeah.

41:23 one word that describes recovery?

41:25 Fluid. What about for you?

41:26 Okay.

41:29 healing.

41:29 yeah, that’s nice. One thing you’ve learned about yourself.

41:32 the healing’s never over. F for me, it’s feels like it’s gonna last forever. That’s that’s what I learned, yeah. One

41:37 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

41:41 what is one thing you hope listeners take away from this, from our podcast?

41:45 I just hope listeners know they’re not on their own in this journey and there’s resources out there to help and support you. Yeah.

41:56 one of one of the things we ask our podcasters, our our interviewees at the end is, you know, if you could say something to your former self just after you’d come out, what would you say? And the answers are very similar, you know. and and one of them is be kind be hanging out,

42:06 Yeah. Aren’t they? Yeah. You got this. Hang in there. You’re doing an amazing job.

42:14 you you’ve got this

42:16 But I think one of the ones

42:16 Back yourself.

42:17 is be be kind to yourself. and I think

42:19 Yeah, be compassionate.

42:21 I think that was yeah, I think that’s really important. Yeah. I mean I mean looking back over these first ten episodes, one thing that’s become really clear is that recovery doesn’t follow a straight line. It’s messy,

42:34 Yeah.

42:35 deeply personal and different for everyone.

42:37 Yeah. But there’s if there’s one thing our all of our guests have shown us is that healing’s possible. Not because life becomes perfect, but because people slowly begin to reconnect with themselves. And they’re building meaningful relationships and they create lives that feel authentic to them.

42:57 Yeah. Yeah. We also we also should say a big thank you to everyone who’s listened, shared an episode episode, left a review or trusted enough to tell your story. this podcast exists because of you and I would also say thank you to Decult for being incredibly supportive.

43:15 for all of their

43:16 amazing support. We love you, D. Colt.

43:18 Yeah, really grateful for that. Yeah.

43:21 You’re our inspiration, for sure. Yeah, and I guess we’re really excited about what’s coming next. We’re gonna continue to bring survivor stories, conversations with different people about different aspects of recovery.

43:35 identity relationships, coercive control, and what it really means to reclaim your life. yeah. If today’s conversation has resonated with you, we’d love you to follow Unspun on this channel and on the podcast platforms.

43:51 Leaving us a review would be amazing. I don’t know if we’ve got one yet, but we’d love to have one, especially a good one. Share this podcast

43:59 Yeah.

44:00 with someone who might need to hear these stories. thanks for joining us. Yeah, until next time. Keep

44:07 Keep

44:07 asking the questions.

44:08 Keep untangling the threads.

44:10 And keep finding your way back to yourself.

44:12 Bye for now.

44:13 Bye.

44:13 Bye.

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Unspun, where we unravel the stories of cult recovery, examine how people recover, and focus on thriving. Welcome, Grace.

0:12 Thanks for having me.

0:14 First, I’ll fill you in on a bit about Grace and then we’ll start the interview. Grace is a third generation

0:22 cult member and became the first person in her family to break the cycle of abuse and high control thinking. It has

0:29 taken years for her to fully understand what happened to her and to begin undoing the beliefs, behaviors, and

0:36 worldview she was raised to accept as normal. Much of her healing and deconstruction journey was done alone,

0:45 learning from scratch how to rebuild her sense of self, think critically, and live outside the system she grew up in.

0:53 In recent years, her sister joined her on that journey, which helped accelerate the process of unpacking and making a sense of their shared experiences.

1:04 She moved in and out of the group from her early 20s, navigating the complex pull of family conditioning, fear, and

1:12 identity while slowly finding her own path forward. It’s great to have you here.

1:19 Thanks. It’s so exciting. Yeah, nerve-wracking. You know how it is.

1:23 Yeah, definitely nerve-wracking. Um, but just relax. It shouldn’t be too full on.

1:29 Um, I guess to start with, we’d just like to get a kind of background of um, the cult that you were a part of um, and

1:39 who held the power and that kind of stuff within the group. Um, could you give us a brief overview of the cult you were a part of?

1:48 So um they call themselves message believers um to the outside world. I think Google calls them brandites or

1:55 banimism depending. Um yeah.

1:58 So for me growing up in it I I didn’t know this. I we just called ourselves message believers. So um if for us it it

2:07 looked very much like for women very controlling. Um men had all the power.

2:12 women were essentially there to just have as many children as they could um and listen to their husbands. Uh there wasn’t

2:20 there wasn’t a lot of happy roles for women in there. Um yeah, it was

2:29 very kept very very sort of quiet. You you kept very isolated from the outside world and you weren’t allowed to really talk about it because they just didn’t

2:37 understand. Um right.

2:39 So yeah, it was I don’t even know how I would describe it to an outside person, but you you can tell that they’re different because the woman would be the big standout points.

2:50 You weren’t allowed to cut your hair, no makeup, no jewelry, you’d be wearing dresses to the floor. Um it was frowned

2:57 upon if you had them any higher than your knees are very frowned upon. You get a talking to from all the big wigs. Yeah.

3:05 So, it’ be things like that. Um and the men had it pretty easy. So yeah, as a woman it was really really rough.

3:12 Right. And did you all live together on a compound or did you live in separate houses?

3:18 So the theory was that we were um in this world but not a part of it.

3:24 So they utilized that as a way of like we had our own houses in different parts of areas of the community like all over New Zealand there’s churches um and we

3:32 came together under one belief in the church. So you would often times not know that they’re in the community.

3:40 Yeah. So um I guess you just mentioned before that it sounds like men held the

3:47 power. So quite a patriarchal kind of setup. Yeah.

3:52 So um women were not allowed to teach uh except in Sunday schools where they were caring for children anyway. So it was part of their role. Um but they would

4:00 prefer it if they could have a Sunday school teacher that was a male. But often times most the men teachers were either pastors or teachers that went

4:08 overseas um and they’ hold like men’s meetings or pastors meetings and you could never be a female pastor.

4:16 Right. Yeah.

4:17 So that was it was quite a shock to me when I found out other people outside of the church were female pastors. It was like what?

4:25 Yeah. Right. Such a foreign concept. Yeah. How did that translate um into the home?

4:32 Uh the man was the head of the house. He made the decisions. Um the woman was there to fulfill his needs. A lot of times in a household of a married

4:41 couple, um the husband would be working, the woman would be staying home all day looking after the children, keeping the house clean. Um and he’d come home and,

4:49 you know, he would get to relax and wind down and the woman would never stop. She would stop until she went to bed, basically. Wow.

4:55 Um and you got to see that from a very young age in a lot of households. And a lot of times um if a woman was speaking

5:04 out they would the leaders of the church would turn to the men and be like you need to control your wife. Um and if there was no man in that household the

5:12 deacons would come to the wife the the woman and be like if you don’t control your children or do make them behave we’re going to start getting down on you

5:20 kind of thing. Um right smacking was very common in the ch in the church and within a household. Um

5:27 it was quite common to see children dragged out of church screaming and getting smacked quite severely. Like I I say smacked as it was beating, right?

5:36 It was very violent. Yeah.

5:38 Yeah. It was very rough seeing that and looking back now. It’s horrible.

5:43 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Do you have memories of that kind of thing?

5:47 Yeah. Yeah, I do. Um I have ADHD and autism, so I really struggle to sit still. For me, I’m always fidgeting, always moving something. And I could

5:55 never sit still in church. Um, and before my parents split up, my dad used to take me out and regularly smack me.

6:02 Um, and then when he was not there, the deacons would come up behind me and tap me on the shoulder and give me a look.

6:08 Like, it was you sort your [ __ ] out or we’re going to smack you. Um, and if that didn’t work, then they’d sit me next to the door next

6:16 to them the whole church service, right? Oh, that sounds so intimidating.

6:21 So intimidating. Yeah. You’d be sitting there just like sitting on your hands like hoping you don’t twitch the wrong way.

6:26 Right. Oh, that sounds awful. So horrible. Hated church.

6:32 So, I guess that answers the question about the roles for men and women. It sounds like a very traditional kind of

6:41 um church where women wear the long dresses and long hair and men got to do whatever they want essentially.

6:49 Yeah. The only rules they really had was, you know, no drinking, no alcohol. They had to have their hair tidy.

6:55 They weren’t allowed to wear shorts was like the only rule. But in each individual households, people kind of did their like they flexed a little bit

7:03 on the rules, but you would never do it at like a church gathering ever.

7:07 Right. What was it like in your household?

7:10 Um, it was very strict early on and then after my dad left, my mom took over the role and essentially just reinforced it.

7:17 And I think she was actually probably harder than my dad would have been, right? Yeah.

7:22 Um, do you think she was compensating for not having a male in the house?

7:28 Probably. Yeah, I think that would be the case. She felt like she had to step up and be both the father and the mother in the role.

7:35 Um, and maybe she just wanted to prove to everybody that she could raise these kids on her own, you know, right?

7:42 Cuz I mean, her marriage failed, so she had something to prove essentially.

7:45 That’s what she saw it as, which is a shame.

7:50 What are your first memories of the cult?

7:54 Uh, it’d be sitting in church. That’s the earliest one. I can remember being held by my mom and she was holding me. I must have been really little.

8:03 Um, I think she would have been pregnant with my younger sister then.

8:06 And I remember like just not being able to sit still and she kept trying to like get me to sit still and it was just like I remember just being so so bored.

8:14 Yeah. cuz services were not short. 2 hours was kind of the average.

8:18 Wow. That’s a long time for a little child. Yeah. For a little kid that was rough. Yeah.

8:25 How were children treated?

8:28 They were expected to be silent to not allowed to speak up. Um we oftent times went up to did like items in front of

8:35 the church and everybody like that, oh let’s do a kids item. And then all of the kids had to go up. You didn’t have a choice. And I hated it cuz I they used

8:44 to position me in front of the microphone and I used to get laughed at and I just found that so embarrassing and so shameful. Yeah.

8:50 Um you’re expected to do your schoolwork or um go to Sunday school, come in, sit still, and just be quiet. You weren’t

8:58 allowed to be just kids. After church was the best part because you could just run around and be kids, right?

9:05 Um in the in the home, you weren’t allowed to be fussy. You weren’t allowed to have emotions. You weren’t allowed to Yeah.

9:13 just be kids really, right? Yeah. So, there was this expectation that you would be seen and not heard and that. Yeah.

9:21 Yeah.

9:24 How did the group shape the way you saw yourself and other people in the outside world?

9:33 Uh, I actually ended up having a very self-critical view of myself. I hated myself. I hated what I looked like and I

9:40 thought that was being humble. Uh I thought that was part of the process. Um and I used to judge people a lot and

9:48 then I realized it was not something I wanted to do. That was part of the process of things fragmenting.

9:53 Um and I had like this sense of helplessness. I didn’t know how to do anything for myself because like God is to do everything for you. He’s the one

10:01 that’s meant to be like doing the things in your life. Um it also made me have a very narrow viewpoint that this was the only option

10:10 and everybody else was wrong and that affected me a lot later on.

10:15 Um it took a long time to sort of break that habit.

10:18 Um the narrow viewpoint was one of the strongest ones. Yeah.

10:23 The the people that the quotes the constant quotes from different parts of what they believed in. Um that was that was a big part in it.

10:31 Yeah. For sure. I don’t think we’ve um talked about what’s the name of your cult.

10:37 Um the message message believers or banimism. It comes from Yeah.

10:43 Uh William Brham who’s an American like they called him prophet. Yeah.

10:48 And they believe there was a prophet for every age after Jesus died and there was like one Paul after that Martinian Luther and then Brandham came right at the end.

10:58 Right. Um, and he started off his ministry with a healing thing and then evolved into deeper stuff. Um, but I

11:06 learned later on that that so much more than that. There was like the KKK were paying him to preach and

11:14 um, there was a lot more behind the scenes that was not accurate or true and that he talked about and in the message in the churches they

11:22 would explain it away. And it got to the point in the churches that they saw him as some kind of a god that he could do no wrong.

11:31 Um and that was one of the things that I had a big problem with. Right. Cuz I was like he’s just a human. Yes. And they just could not hear me. Yeah.

11:39 And being the fact that I was a woman and I was speaking about this this was not good. Right. Unacceptable behavior.

11:46 Yeah. I I have vague um recollections of him um of a a lot of other offshoot

11:55 Christian fundamentalist churches believing in his Yeah. teachings. Is that right?

12:02 There there’s I mean there’s a lot of churches all around New Zealand. Um and I mean even in Australia there’s a whole bunch of them.

12:10 Um I don’t know of other offshoot churches. I mean the whole core belief system of the message believers

12:17 is like Brandon and there is some versions of it. Yes.

12:23 That have been changed and they still classify themselves as message believers. Right.

12:28 So um my mom’s in one at the moment that’s like the original one’s like a

12:34 oneness. They believe that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Whereas this other offshoot believes they’re two separate people. So like that kind of offshoots

12:42 rather than Yeah, it’s like the variations you sort of see which is the whole thing’s messy. Yes, for sure.

12:50 Gets so complex. Yeah.

12:55 What happened if someone doubted or pushed back on the rules?

12:59 Um generally depended if they were adult or a child.

13:04 If they were a child, it was up to the parents to discipline them and pull them under and pull them back. Um, my sister was really bad at pushing against the

13:12 rules and she just got beat more. Um, right.

13:15 There was other people in the church that pushed back against the rules and their parents are a little bit more chilled out about it.

13:22 They said, “Well, you can make your own decisions when you turn 16.” Um, and they ended up ultimately leaving. Yeah.

13:28 The consequences of that is that you’d never see them again. It was like kind of a silent shunning. You just, you know, never talk to them. you’d kind of

13:36 ignore them and they were just people that oh, you don’t want to end up like them. They’d be used as an example, right?

13:41 Oh, they’re going to go to hell, you know? It was really based around like tribulation, like it’s the end times sort of thing. So, it was like scaremongering everywhere.

13:53 So, did they have a kind of doomsday philosophy?

13:57 Yeah, they did. Like, it was it’s the end times, you need to believe now.

14:01 Let’s watch out for the visions that the prophet spoke about. like that kind of feel.

14:05 So, you’re always feeling like anxious and stressed and worried like am I doing enough? Am I going to be enough? Like, and you never did. You

14:13 never felt enough, right?

14:15 Did they have a whole rapture kind of philosophy? Yeah, they did. Yeah.

14:20 They um three days before Jesus would come, the dead would rise and those that are his chosen would see the dead. Um

14:29 and then they would celebrate with them and then the rapture would happen three days later. And they said it was only going to be very scarce for you. So you had to be super careful.

14:38 Yeah.

14:39 And you had to really like believe in God and read your Bible and pray and just be really devout. Like it was Yeah. Yeah.

14:47 I always wonder um because my cult didn’t have a rapture or end days philosophy. I think there’s an extra

14:56 layer of trauma associated with those beliefs.

15:00 the anxiety and the stress like even like my sister when she left one of the first things she’s like you know

15:09 Jesus is not going to God’s not going to love me if I leave I’m like that’s not a loving person if you’re choosing something because it’s right for you and

15:17 it feel like it’s it it’s what’s appropriate for you. A person who loves you is not going to be like you’re a horrible person. They’re going to be

15:25 like it’s okay. I understand. And like Jesus was a rebel. Like he did things that

15:32 were so shocked and horrified all the religious people.

15:35 I was like we’re supposed to be modeling our lives after him, you know.

15:38 And that was like kind of the easiest way to help break it down. And it helped me by talking to her. Right.

15:43 To sort of break things down for myself, right? So it helped you deconstruct your experience by supporting her. Yeah.

15:51 Right.

15:52 Some of the stuff I didn’t even realize I was still holding on to.

15:55 Right. And it’s just like, oh, there’s another thing I have to go look at and work out and break down. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

16:06 When do you think the first cracks started to appear for you?

16:12 Um, they started pretty early. Um, seeing that little kid getting dragged out of church getting a hiding and then brought in to be paid for later because

16:20 his arm potentially dislocated during it was absolutely horrifying to me. Like it makes me it makes me want to

16:28 cry like now cuz it’s just he wasn’t even 18 months old. Like he was a baby baby, right?

16:33 Um that’s horrific. And then um seeing women in the church, how they got treated and when they were married, I

16:42 didn’t want to get married because I’m like, if this is how women are treated, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life cooking and cleaning cuz that’s what I’m already doing. Yeah.

16:49 Like my mom was spent most of the time locked itself in the bedroom and she’d only come out to punish us or tell us off or yell at us. Um

16:57 so us older girls did all the cooking and cleaning, right?

17:00 I’m like, this is just my life, but with added stress of raising children. I’m like, I don’t want that. Yeah. Too stressful.

17:07 I want I want a husband who’s a partner who’s going to do it with me. Yeah.

17:10 You know, he’s going to help me with the cleaning and the cooking.

17:13 Um, so that was like part of the fragmentation. Um, and then my sister asking me like,

17:20 “Would you smack your children?” It was one of those like I’ve never thought of that moment. And I went back and I looked and I was like, “Actually, no.” Like, yeah, it hurt me. Why would I want to pass that on?

17:30 Yeah. And then that broke open the whole why I don’t want to pass any of this on. Yeah.

17:35 And that just kind of blew the whole thing to pieces. Right.

17:39 So it’s just like little fragments that just started showing up all along the way. Right. You talk about fragmentation.

17:46 What What does that mean for you?

17:49 It’s like the cult being like a glass pane really and then like you get a crack and it starts another crack and then eventually

17:57 the whole thing just kind of shatters apart, right?

18:00 Um and then you realize it’s all nothing but just glass. It’s not actually anything you can rely on. I think that might have been part of the process why

18:08 I stayed for so long was because it’s the only consistent thing in my life and it was the thing that I relied on to make me feel safe. M

18:17 um it was terrifying when it started. It was terrifying because I was like everything I’ve been taught is a lie.

18:26 Like what do I do now? What is real?

18:28 What’s not? I’ve been lied to my whole life. Like Yeah. Oh my gosh. What do I do?

18:32 Yeah. That must have been so um terrifying.

18:36 It was just devastating like world ending kind of. But in a good way like Yeah. Yeah.

18:40 Cuz once you deconstruct all that, you can restart and you actually have a more stable sort of world view and foundation

18:48 for your life, right? Yeah.

18:52 Did you try to silence those kind of questionings or the fragments? Try and glue it all back together.

18:59 For a long time, I made excuses for it.

19:01 And that’s probably why I was in and out of the church for most of my 20s because I was trying to pretend that what I was seeing wasn’t real. um that the only real thing was

19:10 the church and the message. Um and then I just couldn’t anymore. Just couldn’t piece it together because it

19:18 was destroying me and my core beliefs and who I was as a person and yeah, it just got to the point I just I couldn’t hold it together. So, right. Yeah, that makes sense.

19:30 What was the moment, event or realization that made you understand that you couldn’t keep living inside

19:38 that faith or that world, their treatment of people who were different, right?

19:46 Their treatment of people that chose to speak up and say, “Hey, this is wrong.” They they weren’t willing to hear it.

19:52 They weren’t willing to try and change or be different. And they couldn’t accept people who dress differently.

19:58 Right? If you felt that dresses weren’t for you, then you didn’t understand what the message was about and you had to leave, you know,

20:05 they didn’t accept people who were different. And I was different. Very different, right?

20:10 So, I was like a sore thumb in a crowd of thumbs, right? You know. Yeah.

20:14 So, it was understanding that I don’t think I could ever go back from that point.

20:19 And then once I married my husband, it was a definite, “That’s never going to happen again,” right?

20:23 And I had the security and the safety with him, right? He wasn’t in the church. No. Right.

20:29 Um, he was part of the process that helped me completely stay out because he had that safety and security and he

20:37 encouraged me to just be me, right?

20:39 Be more of me. And I’d never had anyone who just loved me for me. It was like a, “Uh, how do I deal with this?” moment. And

20:46 then like, “Oh my gosh, there’s a different side to life.”

20:51 Yeah. It’s like, “I can be happy outside of this.” Yeah.

20:54 But I also had to go through that whole process of learning to love myself and accept who I was before I even got to him because I couldn’t accept love from

21:03 anyone because I didn’t think I was worth it.

21:06 Right. So that whole cult background was what caused a lot of that.

21:12 So you managed to work through some of that self-hatred stuff before you met your husband? Yeah. A lot of it. Yeah.

21:19 Um, yeah. He encouraged me to do so much. Yeah.

21:24 What was the most difficult thing about leaving for you?

21:28 Accepting that my family… I was never going to get a mother. I was never going to get a father. I was going to have to parent myself. Right.

21:36 That was the hardest realization because that’s all I had wanted growing up was a mom, was someone who would be there for me, who would just love me for me and

21:44 just be a parent, you know, showing up for your kid.

21:49 And that was the real hard bit. I was like, “I’m never going to get that.” Right.

22:00 How did you, um, start to deconstruct what had happened to you?

22:08 Me and my sister sat down. This is fairly new. We had someone bring it up in our group chat about how Branham was

22:16 funded by the KKK and we’re like, “Okay, well, we need to sit down and look at this.” But we spent a few months just avoiding the topic because we just

22:23 weren’t ready. Um, and then one day I said, “You know what?

22:26 Maybe we should just sit down and just have a real deep dive into Google and see what Google says.” Um, let’s try and do as much evidence-based research as we can and

22:34 just try and break it down. And we started doing that and we just started deconstructing what we learned and what we knew and realized a lot of it is basically just coercion and manipulation.

22:48 And when we had a label for it, that started making things easier, right? TikTok was an amazing resource for us because I started on

22:57 there and I started seeing therapy and therapists talking about different things, what toxic behavior looked like, what

23:04 narcissism looks like, what coercion, what control looks like.

23:09 Um, and then I started going, “This is my family. This is the church I grew up in.” And I went, “Oh, I’m in trouble.”

23:16 Yeah.

23:17 So then I went, “Something needs to change.”

23:21 And we had to deconstruct it to understand what it looked like so we could stay away from that. We could see the red flags. Yeah.

23:29 Took me so long to see red flags. Yeah. It can be a lengthy process.

23:35 It’s tedious. And sometimes I’m still like, “Ah, still didn’t see that one.”

23:40 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At least now you’re recognizing that you missed one.

23:44 Yeah. And I’m like, “Okay, now I can mentally leave a little marker there. Like, that’s a red flag. I noticed that.” Yeah. Yeah.

23:53 Yeah. I think that’s such a huge part of recovery is that kind of, um, I don’t know if it’s as kind of simple as this, but

24:02 there seems to be a phase in everyone’s recovery where you spend a solid amount of time deconstructing what happened. Yeah.

24:10 Yeah.

24:10 There’s just so much like, “Okay, what is this based off? Is it actually true? Is it actually important?” Um, like I still have a belief that there is

24:19 a God out there, that Jesus was probably real, but a lot of it’s been changed by history, by the telling, by everything.

24:26 So we don’t actually know what is 100% accurate or not. Yeah.

24:29 Like, I don’t actually know, and I’m actually okay with that. Yeah.

24:34 I heard a woman on TikTok. She was talking to her child and they said, “What happens when we die?” And she says, “Well, I don’t actually know, but I know

24:42 before we were born, we weren’t awake, you know, and it was peaceful and was nice. And I’d like to think that when we die, it’s kind of like that. It’s

24:50 just like resting, and it’s peaceful and it’s calm.” Yeah.

24:54 And I just thought, “I’ve never heard anyone put it like that.” Yeah. Yeah. And I’m just… I kind of like that.

24:59 Like it’s not something I’ve ever thought of. And I’m just like, I’ve always thought that, you know, if you didn’t believe in God in their format you were going to hell, and hell was just

25:06 forever and your, you know, eternal burning, whatever. For me, I was living in that. Like, my own mind was hell. So, like, for me, hell would have

25:15 been just a bit more of what I was living in. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

25:19 So yeah, the fact that there is a possibility of peace is kind of like, “Oh, that’s nice.”

25:25 Yeah. And I love the way you appreciated just, um, that simple concept. Like often

25:33 cults and religions can make these things so complex.

25:38 And, um, I’ve often been asked, “What do you believe in now?” And I’m like, “I just believe in the religion of being a

25:47 good person.” Yeah, that’s it. Simple.

25:50 You care about people, so you want to make sure that you look after them, that you do your best to be a good person yourself because

25:58 what you put out in the world comes back to you. So yeah, you treat someone badly, they’re probably going to treat you badly. So do you actually want that? No. Yeah. Exactly.

26:05 It’s like basic humanity. Yeah.

26:11 When did you realize that leaving was only part of it and that you also had to deconstruct what happened?

26:20 I mean, when I first left, I kind of knew a little bit subconsciously, but it took me years to figure out how to deconstruct it.

26:27 And I really wanted my sister to come with me because I just didn’t have anybody. Like, my older sister was just… she was never going to leave.

26:35 She never had that mindset. Yeah.

26:36 Whereas my younger sister always had a bit of a rebel in her. So there was always going to be an element of maybe she would leave, but maybe not. And I mean, she got married. She brought her husband

26:45 into the church. Um, they’re divorced now, which is great. She’s much happier without him.

26:51 Um, but there was always an element of, “Would she hear me?” And that was the hardest bit. And she got to a point

26:59 where we were able to sit down one day and have a really good discussion. And I was like, “I might actually be able to get her to understand where I’m coming from.” Yeah.

27:07 Um, and then I started realizing there’s more to deconstruct than what I realized. Like, yes, I knew that I had to

27:15 deconstruct it and had to try and figure out why this was such a big part of my life and why it was important. Um, but then there was more. It was like the actual

27:23 rules, regulations, and elements of the whole thing. It’s like, “Oh man.” Yeah. So it’s a whole process.

27:31 Yeah, absolutely.

27:33 What beliefs or reflexes were the hardest to unlearn?

27:41 The self-judgment.

27:41 Yeah. The self-criticism, hatred, um, the unexpected manipulation that you

27:50 pick up from the church, from the family.

27:54 Um, there’s specific phrases and words that are used as manipulation. The helplessness was really hard to get rid of.

28:02 I didn’t know how to do things for myself. I didn’t know how to take initiative to change my own life, to actually go out there and act on it.

28:09 Like, I knew the words. I knew how to say things, because I just didn’t know how to do it. Yeah. Like, that was one of the hardest things.

28:14 And once I figured that one out, I was like, “Oh, okay. Now this is easy.” Yeah. Yeah. It was like so many little hard things.

28:22 The subconscious little bits that kept coming up. The trauma was the hard bit to deal with, too. Yeah.

28:27 Um, how did that impact on you?

28:32 Quite a lot. Like, I think I’ve spent most of my 20s deconstructing, working on myself. A lot of people are just enjoying their 20s, you know.

28:40 Yeah. And I’ve spent the whole time working on fixing this mess, learning how to protect myself because I was never protected in the church

28:48 when I should have been. Even I think most churches nowadays try to protect people. Yeah.

28:54 Um, I was sexually assaulted when I was a little kid by my grandfather. And my mom’s like, “Oh, what do you want me

29:02 to do about it?” I’m like, “I don’t know. You’re the parent. You’re supposed to know.” Oh.

29:06 Um, she’s like, “Oh, I guess we cannot see him anymore, but that means I don’t get to see my dad.” And I’m like, “Uh, okay.

29:14 Well, then you’re allowed to see him, I guess.” Why am I making the rules? I’m like a 12-year-old.

29:19 Yeah. Oh, that’s horrific. I’m so sorry you had to go through that.

29:24 It’s just… Yeah, it’s taken me so long to get to the point where I was able to go to the police about it. And I think that should have been done right off the bat. But yeah, straight away.

29:33 It was all swept under the rug. Everyone was just like, “Oh, shh, we don’t talk about it. You know, you’re going to upset her.” I’m like, “I want things to go back to normal, but I want things to be fixed normal.” And I didn’t know what that looked like.

29:42 Now, as an adult, I’m like, “I know how to do that.” So, if it ever comes up for me again, I know the right move. I hope it never does, you know.

29:51 Yeah. Yeah.

29:52 And just like the whole being sexually assaulted as a child, with the cult on top of that, it just basically created a cycle of abuse from relationship to relationship. Mm-hmm.

30:03 Um, even the beatings, they’re all part of the whole mental thing. I I like I need to be punished was one of the weirdest things I had to had to break through. It was whenever I did something wrong, I was like, I need someone to give me a hiding because I don’t believe I’m I’m got enough of a punishment to deserve it. And that was just like a looking back it like what? That makes no sense.

30:25 But it it does. When you’re used to being hurt and being told that this is love, you start looking for that and then you end up in relationships where you’re going to get hurt and maybe borderline almost killed. Yeah. Because the the people are dangerous.

30:39 Exactly. And I I I like what you said too about um feeling the need to be punished because often in those environments once you’re punished you’re free of what you did wrong.

30:48 Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And and and if you don’t get punished, then it’s just hanging over you. Like this karmic kind of debt.

30:59 You’re just waiting for it to come back and get you. Like for me, when we got in trouble as kids, if mom couldn’t figure out who it was,

31:07 um we’d be sitting there waiting.

31:10 And for me, the waiting was worse than the actual punishment. So I’d be like, “Oh, it was me.” Even if it wasn’t, right?

31:14 And I’ll take the punishment because I just wanted it over and done with. I don’t want to sit there sweating for hours. Yeah.

31:20 Like it was it was horrible. It’s a horrible way to live. And I think the other thing that you raise is that

31:31 you’re unable to say no or protect yourself in those environments because you’re so subservient. Yeah. You are not allowed to say no.

31:39 Don’t talk back to me was the response you get.

31:42 Um and you were like like how am I supposed to you asking me for a response and I give you a response and you say don’t talk back to me. So I’m like this is like a horrible cycle.

31:51 like how am I supposed to do what you want but also give you the response you want? Yeah.

31:56 And like I I was always questioning stuff and that did not go down well. I want to know why.

32:01 I had to know why for for like my autism I have to know why. Yeah. Um that did not go down well at all.

32:07 Yeah. Talking back to me, right? Go sit on the naughty chair. I’m going to give you a hiding. And it’s like oh cool another one. Yeah. For what? Yeah.

32:15 I just got so used to it. Yeah.

32:18 So, what did you what was helpful or what techniques did you learn for protecting yourself?

32:28 Um, mine are really sort of simple. It’s realizing that there is law out there that protects people.

32:36 Um, for me, I finally got up the guts and I went to the police station, reported the people that have hurt me because that’s a form of protection. I know that I can also get protection orders against people if they continue coming to my place or harassing me or contacting me

32:51 if I don’t wish it. Like I’m no contact with any of my family besides my sister and my brother, right? Which aren’t in the cult.

32:58 Um but I also know now that I can also use social media to protect myself too.

33:02 Like I can block them. Um but also I have a right to say no and they can just leave me alone and if they don’t I can call the police and get back up, you know.

33:12 Yeah. Yeah. And people around me I know will step in cuz I’ve seen I’ve done it myself. Other people when they’re sort of like freaking out or having issues, I’m like it’s okay. You don’t have to like I’m here. If you need something, I’ll be here to support you, you know? Yeah.

33:23 And I didn’t realize how much of a friendly place that this world actually is. Like people actually genuinely want to help and and how much resources are available. Like I wish I’d known so many more of these resources.

33:36 Wow. Yeah. That’s because they would have helped me move out of there so much faster.

33:39 Right. Yeah. I guess that the whole isolation from mainstream society cuts you off from any knowledge of how to help yourself. And we were told that nobody was safe. Like you can’t trust anybody. It’s just your family and the church.

33:58 And when you can’t trust your family and you know you can’t trust your family and the church doesn’t seem that trustworthy either, you’re kind of like, um, where

34:06 do I go? M I mean I was homeschooled too so even less like I didn’t have any school friends or anything.

34:14 Yeah. So extremely sheltered. Yep. Yeah.

34:17 And naive. I I had no idea about any of the things that you’re supposed to look out for. Yeah.

34:23 To protect yourself. Now I know I can do that. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

34:30 What helped you start building a life that felt like your own?

34:38 That’s a good question. Um, I started working towards what was important to me, what felt safe.

34:47 Um, for me, having a house, my own house that no one could take away from me, that couldn’t, you know, didn’t turn up to do house inspections, you know, every 3 months. I had that. It felt like my childhood all over again, right?

34:58 Because that’s what my mom would do, inspections, room inspections, you know, if it wasn’t clean, you were in trouble.

35:04 Yeah. and someone with ADHD who struggles with overwhelm so easily, it was a nightmare.

35:09 Um, having my own home, having someone who cared for me, loved me for just me.

35:15 Um, having a job that was flexible, that helped me like not get stuck in the whole 9 to5 was a big thing.

35:25 Um, my own space, like all of these little things, just creating like a little pocket of safety and security for myself was like such a big deal for me. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s huge especially if you come out very traumatized is um where is your

35:42 safety in the outside world and creating that sense of safety or like a space where you can feel that.

35:50 Yeah.

35:51 For me living in the country feels safe, you know. Yeah.

35:55 So like there’s not many people. I’m not going to get door knocked and hey, do you want to buy this thing? Cuz that that’s just please go away. Scary.

36:02 Yeah. Strangers are scary still.

36:04 Right. So, you still find that challenging? Yeah. That’s one of the big things.

36:09 Speaking up and strangers, right?

36:12 I mean, even seeing people from the cult is still terrifying to me. Yeah.

36:16 Seeing one in public and I just panic. I just don’t know what to do. Right.

36:20 The therapist is helping me through that, which is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

36:27 What helped you learn to trust yourself again?

36:32 therapy was a big part in it, right?

36:34 Learning that what I felt was real. Um, I shoved a lot of my emotions down, buried them. And and I’d wonder why I’d have these massive explosive meltdowns. Like I’d never do them anyone else around. I’d just lose it at home. Completely lose it. Yeah.

36:49 Um, and did some like mindfulness clinics and stuff. And learning how to feel emotions was a big big thing. Um,

36:59 and embracing the fact that the way I saw saw the world was that was different was actually kind of a good thing. Yeah.

37:05 Like all these little things, just the therapy, the combination of that and doing anti-depressants for a little while to just help push the trauma down so I can work through it.

37:14 Yeah.

37:15 Like all of these little things. There’s so many little things that just helped gain my sense of self back.

37:20 Yeah. And like I’m so happy in myself like physically and emotionally like for the first time around my life. I feel like I’m finally me. I’m allowed to be me and it’s actually completely okay.

37:32 But there’s no one telling me how to live my life. And if they do, I’m like door’s that way, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Out you go.

37:39 Yeah. I don’t want you in my life. If you’re going to tell me how to live it, it’s mine. Yeah. Yeah.

37:43 And that like having that control and that claim over your own life is huge. It’s absolutely huge.

37:48 It’s massive, isn’t it? when you when you come from a childhood where you could you didn’t have a single choice over anything anything at all.

37:56 So you developed um a real sense of yourself and agency and safety and connection it sounds like. Yeah.

38:03 Yeah. And therapy sounds like a big part of that and mindfulness.

38:08 It has helped a lot like I was I was already in the right direction. I just needed examples on how to action things and how to how to do it physically.

38:18 Yeah. And when once I got that, I’m like, “Okay, right.” And even my therapist has said, she’s like, “Wow, in the last year, you’ve just gone from like zero to 100.” She’s like, “You’ve just you were ready for that take off.

38:27 You just need a little bit of push behind you.” And that was it. Yeah.

38:30 Which is awesome. Like it makes me feel good. Like I’m doing so well.

38:34 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s happening. It’s happening.

38:41 Were there everyday things that became part of your recovery like movement, rest, chosen family, creativity, or being in nature?

38:53 Started off with the small things like I started sitting outside in the mornings just feeling the sun on my face with the hot chocolate just just being in the moment.

39:02 Yeah. Um and then it evolved to I really struggled with resting because you know when when you grow up in a in a household you’re doing all the jobs sitting down if you sat for a moment and mom walked in what are you doing you know there’s stuff you need to do so like sitting down resting was really hard and then

39:19 someone with a chronic illness because I’ve got Ellis Dan loss as well so like for me joint pain is everyday occurrence. Yeah.

39:26 Allowing myself to rest and realize I’m not actually doing nothing. I’m actually doing what my body needs which is rest.

39:31 That was a huge part. Um, knowing how important sleep was as well, started working on that. But when someone when you had no control over when you went to bed, having that time before bed, like you just end up staying up so late because you’re like, I don’t want to go to bed because it feels like a punishment, you know?

39:48 Yeah.

39:49 So, like changing the mindset is like this is not a pun, this is not a punishment. My body needs rest. I deserve to go to sleep.

39:56 Like changing that whole way you view it has changed everything. like eating good food not because I have to eat good food and junk food is like the reward. The good food is the reward. The junk food’s just like a it’s a little bit of nice stuff on the side but ultimately you feel sick after a while so it doesn’t actually help you.

40:15 Um but yeah, the little things like sitting outside and literally stopping to smell the flowers. If you see something pretty and you’re like, “Wow, that’s pretty.” Instead of going,

40:23 “That’s nice.” And keep walking, you go, “Let’s just actually have a look at this for a minute.” you know, genuinely taking the time to just look at something and just be there.

40:32 Like that has been a huge part of it.

40:34 Um, resting, like telling myself it’s completely okay to rest.

40:38 Um, having the freedom to make choices and if you can’t make choices, come back and make the choice. Yeah.

40:45 Like when I was a kid, I wasn’t allowed to choose ice creams. I was like, “You need to pick one now.” And like the pressure was on and I just couldn’t do it. I just panic and I’m like, “Okay,

40:52 you go without.” Now I’m like, you know, I can’t decide between the two, so I’m going to get both. Yeah. Or sometimes I’m gonna choose this one.

40:59 I’m like, actually, it’s that one I wanted. So then I know. Yeah.

41:02 You know, like having the option to go, I don’t really have to make a choice like that anymore. It’s it’s a big thing. It takes a lot of the pressure off.

41:10 Yeah. That’s great.

41:12 If it’s trying new foods as well, like my husband’s great. Like he’ll be like, “Do you want to try a bite of mine?” And for me, like if I buy it for myself and I don’t like it, it feels such a waste.

41:21 Yeah. Yeah.

41:21 So, like if I try a bite of his, he’s already eating it, so it’s no loss. And I know next time that I like that food. Yeah.

41:28 Which has helped so much with my anxiety around eating as well, right?

41:31 Cuz like we used to sit for hours at the kitchen table and get hiding so we didn’t eat food and Right.

41:38 I honestly some of the stuff that my mom made I’d rather stuff, right?

41:42 And it was like that. I would have I would have starved.

41:44 Um Wow. I think I probably did in some parts.

41:48 Yeah. I was very very thin as a teenager because my mom was a terrible cook. Oh, that’s horrendous.

41:57 And I’m the complete opposite.

41:58 And that’s when you need really good nourishment, too. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So important.

42:07 Were there fears that stayed in your system even after you no longer believe the teachings?

42:15 The uh the end of the world one. That one took me quite a while to get over. Yeah.

42:23 Um the fear that everything’s going to fall to pieces and that’s it, you know.

42:30 Um I mean, the world’s been going for how many hundreds of thousands of years anyway?

42:35 One of one of my life is just not going to make much of a difference really. Um yeah. And if anything’s going to happen, it’s going to happen so slowly that

42:43 well, I’m probably not going to be around for it anyway. So, and if something big and catastrophic happens, I hope I’m wiped out fast. So,

42:51 it’s like I’ll just enjoy my life in the meantime, you know, just let it be a painless end.

42:57 That was that was a really hard one. I used to get hooked into all the like news disaster things. Everything’s falling to pieces. And then I got to the

43:04 point it was actually affecting my mental health. So, I stopped looking at the news. I just can’t do it anymore because I’m just like it’s too easy to get hooked into that fear.

43:13 Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not even mine to begin with. It’s theirs. Yeah. Yeah.

43:19 What has become part of your ongoing healing practice now?

43:26 Um self-reflection has been a really good one. Right.

43:29 Just processing through something and then um recognizing how I feel in my body about it. Um, if I’m struggling to make a decision, that’s one of the easiest

43:37 ways to make a decision, right?

43:39 Um, someone’s like, “Oh, you want to go do this thing?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” They look at my roster and look at my my calendar. I’m just like, “I’ve got space.” And I’m like, “The

43:48 anxietyy’s crawling.” I’m like, “No, I think I’ve got too much on this week.” Yeah.

43:51 I’m like, or the other thing is I’m allowed to say, “Let me think about it.” Like small little things just allowing to say no to stuff is great.

43:59 Yeah. little things, just lots of little bits and pieces that have helped in the recovery. It’s just so many. I can’t think of them all at once.

44:07 Yeah, it’s a lot, isn’t it? But yeah, I like what you said about um you know, when you need to make a decision, you

44:15 have options around making those decisions and it doesn’t have to be instant. Um but also paying attention to your interior, your feelings around it.

44:28 Yeah, generally your body gives you a really good clue as to where you want to or not. Like mentally I’m like I’m too like too much going on. I don’t know. I don’t

44:35 know. But if I’m feeling anxious about I’m like okay, we need to slow down. So let’s just let’s just ask for space. And then if we go like my I’m I’m giving excuses to the person but I’m not actually saying no.

44:46 Yeah.

44:46 I’m like I call that a soft no. If they start making excuses that sound like no, then it’s probably a no. Yeah.

44:52 I taught my sister that one, too, cuz I was like that’s a great tip. I’m going to tell her cuz this is I wish I learned this earlier. Yeah, that really works.

44:59 You hear it from people, too. Like you hear people talking, they’re like, “I’m not sure. I’ve got things on Thursday.

45:04 Um, I don’t know. I might get time for that.” And you like you can hear they’re not really interested.

45:09 It’s it’s like that whole thing. Unless it’s an enthusiastic yes, then it’s probably a no. Yeah. Yeah. Consent has been a huge huge deal. That’s for sure.

45:17 Right. Learning about consent. That was a that was another big thing that was wow big part in how I did things, right? Yeah.

45:26 Recognizing what it looks like was a big deal, too. It is. Yeah.

45:31 Um, we have a set of questions that we ask everybody at the end of the podcast.

45:38 So, um, I guess we’re kind of moving on to there. If you could speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

45:48 It’s going to be okay. Like, yeah, you’re going to make it through and you’re going to love it.

45:53 This is actually It’s going to be a tough journey. It’s going to be really hard.

45:57 But you’re going to come out the other side and you’re not going to believe how incredible it is and how peaceful your life is, right?

46:04 All that drama, all of that fear that you’re afraid of right now, it’s not going to be there anymore, right?

46:09 And it’s going to be such an amazing feeling. Yeah, that’s a great message of hope.

46:15 It’s the peace is the bit. Oh, I’m such a cool thing to find.

46:19 Isn’t it so awesome? I think it’s like the release of um the

46:27 cult think in your head controlling everything and the fear.

46:32 Yeah. The drama that other people put on me and I thought it was my responsibility like fix it.

46:38 Realizing I didn’t have to have that in my life. I can get rid of that. That was like a Oh man, that creates a whole lot of space and that space is quiet and it’s nice.

46:48 Yeah. Yeah.

46:51 If you had to name one thing that supported you the most, what would that be? Chosen family. Yeah.

46:59 They’ve been amazing. They’ve just love me for me and they celebrate me, right? And that has helped me be me

47:06 faster and better and just grow in sort of personality and character so much.

47:13 All that’s been kept down from when I was a child stuff down there that’s just kind of exploded. Yeah.

47:18 And it’s helped me be like, “Ah, I’m actually okay being me.” Yeah. How did you find your chosen family?

47:24 In all kinds of weird places. I mean, my sister, my husband, I found him on Tinder.

47:29 Ah, fabulous. used the red flags logic, complete logic to find them and then end up being an amazing person.

47:36 Um, and then my friends, uh, my friend Jess, she’s an amazing person. I found her at a florestry course that I did.

47:44 She’s such a kind person, huge heart.

47:47 Uh, and then her friend Ella I met and we became friends. So, it’s like a small little group of people that we just, you know, we sort of collaborate, meet

47:55 up, and we’re always hanging out, wanting to do stuff together. It’s awesome. Oh, that sounds wild. feel so lucky. Yeah.

48:04 What would you like to What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

48:12 They’re probably terrified, absolutely shattered mentally, physically, emotionally,

48:19 and they don’t know what is up and what’s down.

48:22 It’s like they’ve been put in a washing machine and spit out. Like they just they’re completely bewildered.

48:28 Yeah. So time is a big factor and just encouraging them to make choices for them and supporting them in those choices is huge.

48:37 Yeah.

48:38 Like even if they make choices that are completely like, “Oh gosh, are you going to be okay?” Supporting them through that process is absolutely huge.

48:46 Yeah.

48:47 I if I if I had that, I think I would have done the process a bit faster. Yeah.

48:51 And there’s a lot of things I think would have made a difference, but did it on my own and now I can help others. Oh, that’s wonderful.

48:59 Yeah.

49:00 I guess on behalf of Unspun, um I’d love to say just it’s been awesome to hear your story and

49:09 um about your recovery and where you’ve been heading and Yeah, it’s fabulous to have you here. Thank you.

49:17 Yeah. And I think you know your story is one that can help other people as well.

49:24 Like hearing other people’s journeys such a crucial part of recovery I feel. Yeah.

49:29 And that’s I guess why this podcast is here because recovery stories can make such a difference for people.

49:37 Yeah. Yeah.

49:38 It’s never linear either. It’s always like mine. Back and forth back and forth until you figure out Yeah.

49:44 what’s right for you and Yeah. Exactly. Thank you so much.

49:50 And now we wrap up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you to Grace. I’m sure your story will inspire and give

49:57 hope to many people. Thank you for spending this time with us. We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re

50:05 grateful you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to

50:12 feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to.

50:20 You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their hearing

50:27 healing work. Thank Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.

0:06 Hi and welcome to Unspun. Today we have a very special guest, Tristan Phipps, a cult survivor and advocate for cult survivors in the advocacy space.

0:15 Tristan was born and raised in a high-control religious group known as the 2×2 church.

0:24 After being out for more than 20 years, he has taken a new path in recovery through advocacy.

0:32 Over the past two years he has been raising awareness around religious trauma, indoctrination, coercive control, high-control groups, and men’s mental health.

0:41 His advocacy began when abuse within the 2×2 church entered public news cycles.

0:49 At the time, many communities had no idea the group existed and few were publicly naming it.

0:57 What started in online support groups grew into media appearances, podcasts, and ongoing social media work.

1:03 Outside of advocacy, he finds healing in music, DJing, long-distance trail running, and creating art.

1:10 From September, he will also become a dad and welcome a new arrival into his family.

1:17 Congratulations, Tristan.

1:23 Thanks, bro. Good to see you again.

1:25 We’ve connected a few times and shared thoughts on different things.

1:32 Today we want to focus on the recovery side of things and go deeper into that.

1:39 So we’ll spend less time on where you came from and more on your experience of recovery.

1:46 Can you give us a brief overview of the group you were part of?

1:59 The 2×2 church is a high-control religious group, sometimes described as a cult by former members.

2:06 I was born and raised fifth generation into it.

2:13 It’s often called the “church with no name,” a home-based fundamentalist group.

2:20 Preachers go out two by two, without possessions, staying in members’ homes.

2:29 Meetings happen in homes or community spaces rather than church buildings.

2:38 They stay in a congregation for a few weeks before moving on.

2:46 The organisation is funded by members and not formally registered as a charity or entity.

3:02 There is no official registered structure, despite being highly organised in practice.

3:09 The “2×2” name comes from outsiders and the media.

3:16 It operates as a loosely defined but structured belief system with clear internal rules.

3:32 It presents as a simple community of believers but has a strong internal hierarchy.

3:41 That’s interesting, because other groups often register as charities for funding and structure.

3:54 Your group is similar to others I’ve seen in terms of avoiding formal registration.

4:02 In my own experience with another group, that dynamic played out differently but similarly.

4:11 During COVID some groups moved toward charity registration, but not all.

4:28 So within your group, who actually holds the power?

4:48 There is a hierarchy, with workers or preachers at the top.

4:55 They are seen as the ones who interpret the word of God.

5:04 Their message is central, and members attend meetings frequently to hear it.

5:12 Overseers sit above regional structures, including countries or regions.

5:26 Overseers and head workers are always male.

5:34 Female and junior workers exist but hold less authority.

5:42 Local elders manage meetings within homes.

5:50 The structure is male dominated, with no female overseers historically.

6:00 So it’s a clearly patriarchal setup.

6:07 What are your earliest memories of anything that felt different growing up in it?

6:16 It’s hard to pinpoint because you normalize it when you’re born into it.

6:32 Some memories are distant or blurred because you block things out.

6:47 As a child, you don’t realise you’re part of something unusual.

6:59 Your experience depends on how strictly your family follows the rules.

7:08 Every family interprets the system slightly differently.

7:23 In my case it was relatively mild or progressive compared to others.

7:40 Some things we did weren’t strictly allowed, so it felt both normal and not normal.

7:48 Sunday meetings twice a week made it different from other kids’ lives.

8:04 There was also a belief we were chosen and had a direct path to heaven.

8:19 At the same time, I still went to school and mixed with other kids.

8:35 So you were “in the world but not of the world.”

8:43 As a child you don’t see the messaging clearly at first.

8:54 When did the first cracks start to appear for you?

9:12 Looking back, I was never fully invested in it.

9:39 I never really felt it was true or that God was speaking to me.

9:45 I was more just going through the motions.

9:59 There wasn’t a single moment it broke — it was always partial.

10:15 Fear sat in the background that kept you participating.

10:26 So physically in, mentally not fully in.

10:41 Was that fear mainly about going to hell?

10:49 Yes — the belief you were in the only chosen group with access to heaven.

10:55 As a child, that kind of idea is very powerful and frightening.

11:03 Even when I wasn’t fully invested, there was still a strong underlying fear of missing out or something terrible happening if I left.

11:11 That fear included spiritual consequences as well as fear of social and family backlash.

11:16 In high-control groups like this, leaving can come with significant consequences, including shunning or emotional cutoff.

11:27 There are cases of separation, but often it’s also the language and treatment within families that creates distance.

11:48 It creates a constant push and pull between loyalty, fear, and uncertainty.

11:51 The unknown is a major factor—you’re constantly weighing what happens if you step away.

12:00 Indoctrination can be strong enough that you feel stuck, even when part of you wants out.

12:08 You weren’t fully invested, but the system was still doing its job in keeping you inside.

12:18 How did you manage your doubts at that stage?

12:33 I would often silence them because I didn’t feel I had enough certainty to act on them.

12:41 Fear of consequences and fear of losing family played a big role in suppressing questions.

12:57 But as you get older, those questions naturally start to build and demand attention.

13:07 Eventually you reach a point where you start taking control of your own decisions.

13:22 I began to realise the situation wasn’t healthy, even if I couldn’t fully explain it at first.

13:38 It felt like being stuck in a confusing in-between state—lost, uncertain, and conflicted.

13:53 That sense of “no man’s land” is a good way to describe it.

14:02 Eventually you start asking what you actually want for your own life.

14:12 There were parts of it I had pushed away, but also a growing sense of dissatisfaction.

14:23 I wasn’t happy, and I was essentially living life for other people.

14:32 There had to be more than a life based purely on rules and expectations.

15:11 After leaving, what beliefs or behaviours were hardest to unlearn?

15:18 It wasn’t religious belief so much as behavioural conditioning.

15:25 People-pleasing, overthinking, and difficulty making independent decisions were the hardest to break.

15:33 I also struggled with constant self-doubt and seeking external approval.

15:43 These patterns are very common among people leaving similar environments.

15:50 In groups like this, saying no is rarely encouraged or even possible.

15:58 Life becomes centred around service and compliance.

16:07 You’re expected to prioritise the group over your own needs.

16:17 That creates deep difficulty in forming personal boundaries.

16:24 Even simple decisions outside the group can feel unsafe or uncertain.

16:33 There’s often fear that choosing differently means choosing wrongly.

16:41 Boundaries were essentially absent, which made adjustment difficult later.

16:50 I had no real sense of personal boundaries at the time.

16:59 When did you start recognising this as a system rather than just personal struggle?

17:16 At first, it was very internal—focused on my own unraveling and recovery.

17:23 That process involved going to difficult places emotionally and getting professional help.

17:31 There was also a period of exploration and trying to rebuild a normal life.

17:40 I didn’t experience a sudden break—more a gradual transition into normality.

17:48 I had already experienced parts of normal life before leaving fully.

17:57 So in some ways, the transition into “normal life” felt quite seamless.

18:04 The deeper deconstruction came later.

18:11 I needed time to step away before revisiting everything in detail.

18:18 I also used distraction and coping mechanisms during that time.

18:21 Alcohol was one of the ways I coped, not excessively, but as numbing.

18:30 It helped in the short term, but it wasn’t a long-term solution.

18:43 Eventually, I had to go back and unpack everything properly.

18:51 That meant examining behaviours, conditioning, and learned responses.

19:10 Why was I a people-pleaser? Where did these patterns come from?

19:25 It required deconstructing the system that shaped me.

19:37 Did you experience depression after leaving?

19:47 Yes, and at first I didn’t understand what I was experiencing.

19:55 Getting professional help made it clearer and more manageable.

20:02 In some cases, medication helped stabilise things temporarily.

20:08 Counselling and therapy provided tools for navigating it.

20:16 It helped me understand what I was going through and how to move through it.

20:25 There was a period where I was unwell without realising it.

20:32 I had a persistent sense of sadness that I couldn’t explain at the time.

20:41 Was that what led you to seek help?

20:45 My marriage ended not long after leaving, which added another major transition.

20:52 I had married someone within the group, which is quite common.

21:03 That separation, along with leaving the group, made it a major life reset.

21:12 It was a combination of factors that pushed everything into a rebuilding phase.

21:14 And did you seek help from a psychologist privately yourself or go through your GP?

21:23 A mixture of both—through my GP initially, and then I was able to see someone privately as well.

21:29 That was a big step. It was quite a journey and quite scary at first, talking about things that in groups like the 2x2s you’re told are spiritual issues rather than mental health ones.

21:39 In those environments, if you’re struggling, you’re told your spirit isn’t right, or you’re not praying enough, or reading enough.

21:46 Those conversations just don’t really happen, especially for men.

21:50 There’s this expectation that you’re tough, strong, and you push through—something that exists in wider society too, but is very pronounced in those communities.

21:58 So getting help outside of the system you’re “meant” to get help from is a big shift.

22:07 But I didn’t feel shame about it or anything like that.

22:12 It actually became necessary, because I reached a point where I didn’t want to be alive anymore.

22:20 That was a frightening realisation, and it should be frightening.

22:24 That fear was what made me think, okay—I need to do something about this.

22:32 So you had thoughts of suicide?

22:33 Absolutely. Yeah.

22:38 Even though I had good people around me, I was still feeling that way.

22:44 Life wasn’t terrible on the surface—I had friends, family connections, and things were okay in many ways.

22:49 I left the group, I still had relationships, and I wasn’t experiencing extreme shunning like others do.

23:00 But despite all that, I still felt that way internally, which was confusing.

23:07 Good things were happening, but I still didn’t feel okay.

23:16 Suicidal ideation was something I struggled with for a long time.

23:22 Counselling helped over time, but a lot of it came down to friends really showing up for me.

23:32 Ultimately, it was the people around me who helped keep me alive, and I’m very grateful for that.

23:41 What strategies did you learn in counselling that helped?

23:59 One of the biggest takeaways was learning that some days you’re just not okay—and that’s okay.

24:15 You don’t need to analyse every feeling or try to explain it in detail.

24:24 Sometimes you just feel off, and that’s enough to acknowledge.

24:30 Sitting and over-analysing why you feel that way often doesn’t help.

24:37 For me, it was about learning not to spiral into constant self-examination.

24:46 Being honest about how you’re feeling is important—you don’t always have to mask it.

24:56 In the group, I spent years putting on a brave face, which became exhausting.

25:08 That constant masking is emotionally draining over time.

25:12 So learning that it’s okay to just say “I’m not okay today” was huge.

25:19 You don’t need to force yourself into fixing it immediately.

25:22 Sometimes you just accept the day for what it is.

25:30 Before therapy, I would ruminate constantly and try to rationalise everything.

25:45 That often made things worse rather than better.

25:54 Therapy helped me understand that it’s okay to not be okay.

26:02 That simple idea had a big impact once I actually accepted it.

26:10 The next step was figuring out what actually brings you some sense of relief or joy.

26:18 It didn’t need to be anything big—small things counted too.

26:28 It could be mowing the lawns, eating toast, or sitting in the sun.

26:31 Those moments don’t fix everything, but they help in small ways.

26:41 You learn what helps you, even if it only works temporarily.

26:47 It becomes part of self-discovery—learning what actually affects your state of mind.

26:55 I didn’t really know what those things were for me at first.

27:04 Sometimes it’s as simple as reading in the sun or taking a quiet moment.

27:16 For you, music and art became a major part of that, right?

27:23 Music was actually restricted in the group—you weren’t supposed to engage with it.

27:34 In my family there was some exposure, but overall it was seen as something negative.

27:42 I never experienced music as evil—it was always a safe space for me.

27:50 I would lie in bed listening to music for hours as a way of escaping.

27:58 That relationship with music continued even after leaving.

28:08 I’ve spoken with other survivors who had very similar experiences with music in the group.

28:16 They also engaged with it quietly or secretly, despite the rules.

28:25 Music became something that brought joy and understanding rather than guilt.

28:32 It was something people would connect over, even across different countries and experiences.

28:41 That shared experience of music created connection and recognition.

28:50 For me, it eventually grew into DJing and radio work after leaving.

28:59 It developed into meeting people, learning skills, and building something creative.

29:16 But at its core, it was always a safe place I could return to.

29:21 Something that helped regulate how I felt and gave me relief.

29:29 You also run a podcast called Five Servings of Truth.

29:33 Yes, I do.

29:40 And you also do advocacy work around male sexual abuse and related issues.

29:47 Can you tell us about your work with Road to Healing and similar spaces?

29:56 Over the past few years, I’ve found that my story overlaps with a lot of different advocacy spaces.

30:05 There are strong connections between my experience and wider issues in similar groups.

30:13 One of those areas is the long history of sexual abuse within the 2×2 group.

30:20 In recent years, more of that has come into public awareness through charges and media coverage.

30:29 Unfortunately, abuse is a common pattern in many high-control environments.

30:37 That’s why advocacy work across different survivor groups often overlaps and connects.

30:45 I have connected with lots of cool people but particularly the road to healing altered I connected with Sam who I don’t even know how it started it was

30:54 I believe it was on Instagram and he was doing one of his walks and yeah and you know we’ve become big supporters of each other because

31:01 even though his his push is just around sexual harm the overlap is coercive control manipulation you know, and these are all the sorts of

31:09 ideologies and behaviors that happen within high control groups that the end point is is abuse. So, there’s the overlap.

31:17 And when you connect with someone and yeah, you support each other, the message is the same. There’s a vibe

31:23 there. So, it’s been cool to connect and work with other people within the space that’s not just around

31:31 religion or high control groups, but the overlap’s the same. And you share resources because the the healing and the help is the same. Exactly.

31:38 For someone who’s been harmed, whether they’ve been part of a church group or not. Yeah.

31:42 Those services are the same. So, it’s it’s Yeah. Yeah. Awesome to meet these people.

31:48 Yeah. No, I I really admire the work that Sam’s doing and and those other guys that you work with. Um, I follow I follow I follow all of their stuff. And

31:57 um you know as as as a as a sexual abuse victim myself, you know, I I speak out

32:03 quite quite publicly and and as often as I get given an opportunity to talk about

32:09 it because it it it’s so under reported and not well known about the level of

32:18 just how much sexual abuse that males are subject to.

32:24 Um, and I think it, you know, it’s it’s almost like one of the last taboos and there’s a lot of stigma around it and I

32:31 really admire what you and Sam and the other guys are doing and and I, you know, carry on.

32:38 Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. No, that Yeah. Um, you mentioned Sam and yeah, shouts out to him. So, I mean, this this

32:44 this would go some way to talking about, you know, I want to I want to ask you how did you how did you begin creating

32:51 safety and connection and meaning outside your group? And you’ve you’ve sort of stated music was one of them, art was another. So, you you have this

33:00 um you you make art out of vinyl records, which is

33:07 super meta, I guess, because you love music. And um yeah, talk talk to me a little bit about your art.

33:14 Yeah, so that’s sort of been something that’s happened in the last five or six years. Just I mean, everyone’s an artist

33:21 in some way. Everyone’s got creative creativity inside them. And and it just spawned from bits of plastic, some old scratch

33:29 records that I was given through my mate at the music shop that were unplayable, damaged, and then making stencils and getting spray paints and creating

33:38 designs and having a bit of a go and going, “Oh, that looks kind of cool.” And then people, you know, feedback is always people like, “Wa, that’s really cool.” Cuz in ourselves,

33:46 we don’t think we’re very creative. We don’t think we can do much. And you make something and someone sees it and it’s that sort of that. Yeah, it it’s just another outlet as well, I guess.

33:57 Um, yeah. So, that’s sort of only been in the last five or six years. It’s such a buzz when you make someone something and someone loves it or in a few times

34:06 someone has actually brought something, which is really really cool to know that something you created, someone loves it that much they want to hang it on their wall.

34:13 There’s there’s such a a cathartic process.

34:17 And I mean the the art the making of art is a cathartic process and is would you say the music and the I mean surely the

34:27 music was a safe space to go but you know did you find that making the art helped you heal in some way. It’s just I

34:36 find it so relaxing so I can just go out into the garage put some music on but sometimes I have no idea what I’m doing.

34:45 Absolutely no idea. and I’ll just freestyle and make something and sometimes it’s like, “Yeah, that’s really cool.” Sometimes it goes a bit wonky and you end up,

34:53 I don’t know, trying to fix it or whatever. But it is absolutely a healing process. Absolutely. 100%. Mhm.

35:00 Um being creative, um visualizing things, imagining things in your mind, having the music going,

35:09 being in a Yeah, it’s it definitely is for for me for me. I’m I’m sure for others as well, but definitely a healing space. Um, keeping your brain working.

35:18 Um, seeing colors, imagining things. Um, yeah, it’s it’s just again like like my

35:27 running, like my music, it’s an escape for x amount of time to take your mind and put it somewhere else.

35:34 And then if you create something good out of that time, awesome. Sometimes you might spend two hours out there, think you’ve done the most amazing thing, and

35:43 then you ruin it or whatever, and you’re like, “Oh my god, so good.” But yeah, I for what it is and what I use it for, I love it.

35:52 Yeah. And you you and you also talk about, so you’re also quite a a fitness orientated guy and so you do a lot of um

36:00 long-distance running. um that that also must be very um healing you know that

36:08 the I’ I’ve found so when I go tramping I don’t do running but I don’t like

36:14 running why um I like tramping I like snowboarding um and when when I’m in the

36:22 sort of flow state you know your sort of mind wanders off and you don’t think

36:30 about anything in particular sometimes you don’t about anything at all. Mhm.

36:34 Um and you know it’s akin to meditation almost. Yes.

36:39 Um which is something I find very difficult now because the meditation in in Fong Gong was um abusive.

36:48 Yeah. Yeah. Um very triggering for you probably.

36:52 Yeah. So I I find I find meditating now very difficult. But I do find things like cramping and snowboarding. And do you do you find that the same with your

37:00 running? Yeah, absolutely. So that’s I’d say that’d be something I’ve been doing probably for the last 15 years now, right?

37:09 Um more in the last few years, trail running. Mhm.

37:13 But running in general, it it’s the same as art is the same as the music, you know, getting that professional help

37:20 when I did finding those things. It was the running and the music. Of course, arts come later, but what made you it’s

37:28 endorphins. What makes you feel good on a terrible day? You can just go run for 20 minutes and while listening to music.

37:35 Yeah, I always listen to music and you just feel so much better. But it’s the same as the music and the art. It’s an escape. It’s just to take yourself out

37:42 and as you say, go out in nature. It’s the movement. It’s all of it combined. Your mind can think about the music.

37:52 Your mind can think about absolutely nothing.

37:54 Mhm. you. I’ve created so many cool things while I’m out running and had so many good ideas. That’s great. Yeah. But it’s just taking yourself out.

38:02 I love just running down by the river.

38:04 There’s really very many people down there.

38:07 And it’s also something my partner and I do and something we connected over is running together. Sometimes we’ll run together with our music on and do our own thing. And then sometimes

38:16 we’ll say, “No music today. We’re going to talk to each other. We’re going to enjoy what’s going on around us. We’re going to do it together and be present.

38:25 Um, both are awesome and just like the art, just like the music, definitely healing properties, and definitely some with somewhere I can escape to. Like,

38:34 it’s always there. I always know I can put my shoes on, I can go out the door, I might hate it for the first 10 minutes, but after that, I feel

38:43 And when you come back, you might have only run for 10k or whatever, but you feel like you’re the champion of the world,

38:50 right? you do. So, it’s flowing through your body, you know, you feel great. You get home and, you know, that’s right.

38:57 Yeah. Yeah. So, so sometimes sometimes you just need an activity to sort of, you know, for one of a better word,

39:04 distract you, get get yourself out of your head. And like you say, it can be something as as

39:11 non-taxing physically as art or listening to music, or it can be full hardcore intentional

39:19 hard work. But I mean, you know, you it could be for some people it could be reading books or it could be swimming.

39:25 You know, there’s there’s, you know, finding an activity or hobby. Find your thing.

39:29 Find your thing. Absolutely. Find your thing.

39:32 That’s a really useful healing being a technique.

39:36 I believe an underrated superpower is being to be able to be in your own company. Yeah. And feel good.

39:44 Mhm. Definitely an underrated superpower is definitely being alone, being in your own company and being okay with it.

39:51 Yeah. Learning learning self- resilience.

39:53 And that doesn’t even mean to be doing an activity like we talked about. It might just be sitting pottering around home all day by yourself.

40:02 Mhm.

40:02 And and just okay in your own company and in your own space. I think that’s a really I really really really enjoy it.

40:10 But I think it’s quite a superpower. I agree. I absolutely agree. So, um,

40:18 thinking back, um, a little bit to, you know, when you got out and and you were discovering all these all these things.

40:29 Um, but you had, you said you, you know, you you left, you must have still had

40:36 glimpses of fear and doubt. And you know what what helped you learn to trust

40:43 yourself again and sort of determine well this is group think and this is me you know is there was there anything

40:50 specifically that you did that helped man that’s a really really really good question

40:58 I’m not sure there was anything in particular I was just ready to move on like I as I said before I just had

41:05 enough of the [__] and I it’s the best way I can put it. Yeah. There’s just more to this.

41:12 And having great friends and having this like it just didn’t make sense that I was somehow better than these people. Yeah.

41:18 And that these awesome people who have been in my life who are my great friends Mhm.

41:23 weren’t it it just didn’t correlate. It didn’t make sense.

41:28 Mhm. Um, was there still fear there that I’ll be moving away from something and my life’s going to fall apart and I

41:36 might die and I’ll end up in some burning pit?

41:40 I really can’t remember, right?

41:42 But I was just I felt free. Obviously, there was things I had to work through like I talked about. There was things going on, but outside of that, it’s just like there’s more to this.

41:54 Bring it on. Mhm.

41:56 Um, that’s great. Yeah.

41:59 So there were every things everyday things that came that became a car a part of your recovery you know like the

42:07 running um like the the music and the art. What about um

42:15 what about your family? What what happened there with relationships and how did you reconcile with what you were

42:23 you know you’re now making a conscious decision to not be part of this. How did you how did you deal with your family?

42:29 Yeah, me and my brother I have an older brother. We left at about the same time.

42:34 Um, never had discussion about it. It just sort of happened.

42:39 Always had a great relationship with my parents. They continued to be part of the church and our relationship never

42:46 changed. I don’t remember ever being a conversation about I’m going to do this now. it just

42:55 sort of evolved into that and they respected the decision I made and they

43:02 didn’t push and pull and try and bring me back in. Mhm.

43:06 Um, as as I said before, everyone’s experience is so different as to how their family reacts.

43:13 probably I’m going to say because of the the family environment we had and how our upbringing was,

43:21 there was a level of respect and understanding that they could see that I was just doing me. Mhm. I wasn’t out there.

43:30 Yeah.

43:30 How did how how do they feel now that you’re doing all this advocacy? Well, my parents have also left. They left um nearly two years ago.

43:38 Oh, wow. That’s awesome.

43:39 Yeah, that’s very awesome. um something that great that’s come out of but it was a yeah you

43:46 people need to come to that decision by themselves. You can’t make someone from your experience also. You can’t make

43:54 someone leave a high control environment or a group. That’s a decision you need to make and you can

44:01 be there to show them what’s possible, but you can’t directly save them or take them out.

44:08 And I would like to think me standing up as who I am and putting the message out that I put

44:16 out. And I said this on um Sam Cellers’s podcast as well because she asked me a very similar question. What was the the

44:24 thing that came out of this? And it was it was great because I’d like to think that me putting out this message possibly helped influence their decision.

44:34 Mhm.

44:34 Not that I sat them down and said, “I would like you to do X, Y, and Z.” But to see that

44:41 the harm the harm that I had endured,

44:50 not only being part of that group, but after I had left the group

44:57 and finally recognizing and talking about it, possibly made people understand

45:05 that they’re not safe environments to be in. Mhm.

45:09 Did you I was Yeah, I was indeently assaulted by an

45:16 ex-worker after I left the group and I didn’t tell anybody. Right.

45:22 Only talked about it about two years ago. Mhm.

45:26 I fought with it in my mind for a long time and tried to work out make it that it wasn’t that which is very common. Mhm.

45:37 Cuz I was embarrassed by it, particularly being a male, as we talked about. Mhm.

45:43 To wrestle with that and then put it out there, I think, made those close to me realize that these environments aren’t

45:51 safe and the behaviors that everyone participates in and the ideologies that everyone clings on to and follows,

46:00 that is a symptom of it and I was harmed. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

46:07 Absolutely. So, we’re we’re sort of coming towards the last sort of portion of the the podcast now.

46:14 Um, if someone listening to this right now is at the

46:21 beginning of their of this process of leaving, what would you want them to know? What helped most for you?

46:32 I feel now there’s so much more information and support

46:40 out there now than there was even five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. It’s about building community now.

46:49 It’s again everyone’s experience within those groups have been so different. So what people’s needs are are not always the same.

46:57 Yeah. But I feel the best thing you can do is there are people to reach out to. Now it doesn’t have to be someone people who have been

47:05 part of the same group. There’s definitely services and things out there that are available for for that

47:12 connect with people who haven’t been part of the same group you’re part of. Mh.

47:16 But also I feel it’s about creating relationships and finding people and friends that have never been

47:24 part of these groups is so healthy. Mhm.

47:27 to sort of that’s always going to be in your life. It’s never going to go away that you were in this group and these things happened and whatever. But

47:34 if you can have some people around you and some group and support around you of people that have never been part of any group like that or even part of the same

47:43 group as you, I find it’s very healthy to have a balance of both. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that’s great. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah.

47:50 But also that I’m not saying that’s really easy to easy to do also. No, no, but there is help available. There’s people available. And there are people

47:59 out there who have been in the same group as you who can help you and support you and possibly lead you

48:06 in the right direction, whatever that is. But there good people out there. There are good people out there. There are. Yeah.

48:14 Um like, so um I’ve got three sort of quick questions that I want to ask you. Sort of rapidish fire.

48:24 If you if you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

48:32 You’re making the right decision. Even though it’s there’s going to be some wild stuff going to happen. You’re m

48:41 you’re doing it. You are making a choice for yourself.

48:45 Yeah, you have a choice in it. You are making a choice for yourself. That’s good.

48:54 If you had to name one thing that supported you the most, what would that be? Friends.

49:03 Nice. Worldly friends. Worldly friends.

49:09 And what would you like people to know about people leaving cults? you know, those those that haven’t never been in a cult, what what would you say to them?

49:23 That the harm is not always physical. I think sometimes it’s been glamorized a

49:29 bit much, that people are always physically harmed when they’re in cults, right? people aren’t also it’s it’s also

49:38 the indoctrination and the information and the um coercive control in the words can

49:46 sometimes have a massive effect on people as well.

49:49 It’s not just some physical things that have happened. Yeah.

49:52 Um yeah, the systems and the programming can have a lot of harm as well. It doesn’t necessarily have to be physical.

50:00 So yeah, there’s a lot of deprogramming that needs to be done.

50:04 Yeah. Um, yeah. On top of possibly other Yeah.

50:07 And and and one last thing, so if if if there’s any one thing that we’ve left out that you would like to say, what

50:16 what would it be? What what have we not talked about that you would like to leave with our listeners?

50:23 Um, we kind of touched on a little bit, but I think to the other fellow advocates out there as well, it’s quite

50:31 a it’s quite a hard thing to do. Um, I know some people do it for a job, but there’s a number of us who don’t. It’s

50:39 just something we want to help in. And it can be quite a draining and hard space to be in. And sometimes you can feel quite alone

50:46 when there’s not many of you doing the same thing. And it’s quite sometimes quite easy to get annoyed about it. Um

50:55 but it’s about looking looking after yourself as well. It is a lonely space.

51:00 So just be kind to yourself. And when you find those people that you connect with, like hold them tight. Mhm.

51:08 When that you won’t vibe with everyone, but there’ll be people that you’ll vibe with and feel Yeah. they’re quite quite likeminded.

51:16 Um Yeah. But just don’t wear yourself out as well. Yeah, you can feel alone at times, but there are we’ve Yeah, we’ve

51:25 all felt it. It’s just be be careful with yourself as well.

51:29 Take time out as well because it can be quite overwhelming sometimes you’re hearing and taking on a lot of stuff.

51:35 And if you do that continually over and over and over and over, it can it can wear on you. Yeah. Yeah. So, caution and rest.

51:45 Absolutely.

51:45 Yeah. That’s wonderful. Thank you so much, Tristan. Um, it’s really, it’s been awesome listening to your story.

51:53 Um, so that’s us wrapping up another episode of Unspun. Um, a huge thanks to you, Tristan. I’m sure your story is

52:00 going to inspire a lot of people, um, as it has me. Uh, thank you for spending time with us. We know these stories can

52:07 stir a lot and we’re grateful you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to

52:16 listen, and to feel. Thank you.

0:10 Welcome to tonight's episode of Unspun, where we continue our Jehovah's Witnesses series. Tonight, we're sitting down with someone who's born into the

0:19 Jehovah's Witness community, a world they didn't choose, but were shaped by from the very beginning. We talk about what it was like growing up inside the

0:27 faith, the beliefs, the rules, the expectations, and how those early messages seep into your sense of self.

0:35 We explore what it takes to untangle from a world that wants defined everything, your identity, your future, or even your safety. And we speak

0:44 honestly about the long road of rebuilding, healing, and learning to stand on solid ground beyond it. On the pod today, we are interviewing Justin

0:53 White aka Rusty. Rusty is a highly regarded New Zealand comedian based in Christ Church. Known for his award-winning standup and energetic live

1:02 performances, he has been a staple of the South Island comedy scene and has been described as a cult classic comedian. Rusty is known for his

1:10 fast-paced, often chaotic and hilarious storytelling with reviews calling his work a finely polish finally polished

1:20 masterwork. His material often focuses on absurd observations and personal stories. Rusty grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and walked away as a teenager.

1:28 And now he turns that world into comedy gold. His humor is dark, a little irreverent, and deeply personal, pulling

1:34 from the strange, intense, and sometimes surreal moments of life inside a high control religion. We met him at the

1:43 Doomsday Comedy event, loved his set, and invited him on the pod to unpack the story behind the jokes.

1:44 Welcome.

1:53 How we doing? Good. Good. So, to start off, tell us uh a little about who you are

1:59 today and what like what life looks for you now.

2:03 Yikes. Big questions. Um who I am today.

2:11 Um I fix guitars during the day. I play music and perform at night. I'm in lots

2:16 of projects. Keep myself real busy. And that's pretty much the sum total of it.

2:22 There's not really a lot else in my life apart from work and performing.

2:29 And so you but you also um are a musician as well, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah.

2:36 And you and you told you told me before we started that you were in you were in four different projects. Yeah.

2:41 Yeah. That's incredible. That's that's a huge amount of output. You like to keep yourself busy.

2:46 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a brain that is not built for downtime.

2:54 Um yeah. Yeah. I I I don't know what to do with free time, so I'd like to be busy and doing [ __ ] all the time.

3:05 That's cool. That's cool. So, um tell us about what your world was like inside inside the Jehovah's Witness community and how how did it shape you?

3:14 Oh, so so many ways. So I was uh raised in a divided household. Uh my mom was

3:22 very devout uh Jehovah's Witness. Um very much seeking to make Jehovah proud.

3:30 Dad was an angry atheist drinker. Um two incredibly different worldviews. Um

3:38 they didn't really so much struggle over our spiritual upbringing. Uh my father thought the church was a wonderful way

3:45 of getting children out of the house um and away from him. Uh so he just kind of

3:53 sat in the background which I know isn't the case with all you know um divided households. Sometimes there's a real battleground between the parents for the

4:02 souls of the children. Um dad didn't give a [ __ ] about our souls. It was fine. um

4:10 mom because she had pardon me because she had married an unbeliever. She she

4:20 converted uh when she was 18 uh to Jehovah's Witnesses um who you know found her at a very vulnerable state.

4:27 Her upbringing was not cool. Um and yeah, they love a person in a vulnerable state. They'll get on in

4:36 there. She met my dad when she was like 22. Uh married an unbeliever, so was dysfellowshipped and then spent years

4:45 bowing and scraping to get her way back in. But because of that, no matter what congregation there she was in, there was a stigma that traveled with her from

4:47 elder group to elder group, right?

4:55 You know, someone who will make terrible decisions. I don't know if you've ever been 20 before, but

4:59 you probably made some terrible decisions. I know I did. Yeah.

5:07 Um and that ship will follow you around the rest of your life in the organization. So she was desperate for

5:17 approval from an organization that kind of victimized her. Um and we were pawns in that game. Like uh you bring up good

5:25 devout, you know, children that always have something cool to say and the answers and clearly do that then that helps your standing in the congregation.

5:32 So, um, there's a lot of direct and insistent encouragement and that that

5:40 underlying kind of gee, mom's already got such a [ __ ] deal in life. I don't want to be the person that disappoints

5:48 her further. You know, mother's disappointment was always the the worst thing. Dad would just beat

5:49 you, you know, right?

6:00 And well, once it's over, it's over. And you learn that physical pain there's a high degree of forbearance that you can train yourself into.

6:07 But you know, mom but being disappointed in you hurt a lot more than anything dad could do. Right. Right.

6:15 Um I grew up I've got a bunch of older brothers and sisters, but I really only grew up with one of them um who's three

6:23 years older than me. Uh yeah, he was caught up in the same thing. Um,

6:35 you're made to feel strange and other from everybody else in the world. Um, it's a lot harder going through school.

6:42 Um, making friends, doing all the normal things normal kids do. Um,

6:49 you are very twisted in your ideas about other people, you know, but Jehovah's Witness

6:59 is a very zero sum game. You're in the cult or you are an evil Satan worshipping bag of crap uh with no moral

7:09 fiber or you know. Um, so I think the thing for me because I left

7:13 relatively early in life, you know, I was 15, 15 and a half.

7:20 Um, I found it relatively easy to walk away from the beliefs. They seem just stupid,

7:28 just really dumb. Like if the omnipotent creator of the universe

7:35 really did have a detailed plan, I suspect it would be at least better written, you know, like

7:42 I I imagine that the you know, the creator of the universe might be an effective communicator. Um, and you

7:50 know, the beliefs are obviously idiotic, relatively easy to beat, especially if you get out early enough.

7:59 But the conditioning is a whole other thing. and something I myself did not realize was even at play until decades

8:08 after I'd left when I was uh trying to sort my brain out a bit and saw a therapist and sort of the first

8:16 consultation I briefly outlined you know my problems why I was there and he said were you brought up religious by any

8:25 chance and I went yeah I was he says were you brought up as a Jehovah's witness by any chance I was like, "Yeah,

8:34 how'd you figure that?" And he said, "You [ __ ] should have a syndrome named after you." He said, "Let me just say

8:40 some things and see if they try with you." And he rattled off three or four things. And I was like, "Yeah, bingo.

8:46 All of them." And he's like, "Yeah." And he explained to me that the conditioning was a lot more professional than the

8:56 beliefs, you know, and because I've been born into it, that conditioning had been applied to me the instant I was aware.

9:00 And that's the stuff that messes you up belong to. Yeah.

9:07 You know, yeah, I had a lifelong battle with just an unexplained self-loathing that nothing I

9:14 achieved, nothing I did was ever good enough or worthy. I wasn't worthy of love or having anything good happen to

9:20 me because I'm a worthless clay slave built built to disappoint God. Yeah.

9:27 Now, you don't say that out loud to yourself, but if it's ingrained in subcutaneously,

9:34 you know, your whole life, you will carry that [ __ ] around with you like finely made luggage the rest of your life. Yeah.

9:36 Until you realize that that's what it is. Yeah.

9:44 And when you say, "Who am I now? I'm a whole bunch happier than I was just a few years ago. Right?

9:50 Because the first step to breaking your conditioning is recognizing you've been conditioned.

10:00 So, so let's talk about that. Let's what what was, you know, what was the catalyst moment that led to you leaving?

It was kind of a storm uh of various things. I was resisting getting

10:14 baptized. Uh I'd been kind of pumo from I don't know about the age of 11. You

10:23 know, I was one of them bright kids and I saw the inconsistencies, the outright

10:30 lies, the fact that if you were too curious and answered difficult questions, you

10:38 weren't a keen student that wanted to know about Jehovah. you were a troublemaking little [ __ ] you know, and

10:46 that just seemed really inongruous. But I tried to stay in for as long as I could for my mother's sake, you know.

10:55 Um, but eventually you do the math and you go, I can't actually pretend to be

11:04 someone else for the rest of my life to make my parents happy or one parent, you know. Um, and if you can and you think

11:11 that that's worth the investment, well, good luck to you, but I don't think it'll work out. You can't live your life for other people. You You got to do it

11:18 for you. Um, so I was resisting getting baptized. I made a few worldly friends

11:24 because most of the people in my congregation I just did not gel with whatsoever.

11:30 Um, I got into trouble, you know. I got I got drunk once.

11:37 Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And from then on just instant alcoholic and you know started started beating people up and stealing

11:45 cars of course. But no, no. I And what really the thing that was the last fiber

11:54 to snap and set me a drift was the fact that um when I got in trouble, they took my stuff.

12:00 Like they took my stereo away and my bicycle, you know, like.

12:09 And that made me think, a what a bunch of petty little [ __ ] and B, wow, this is conditional, you know.

12:09 Yeah.

12:16 All this love, all this faith, all this togetherness, righteousness, and solidarity is really, really

12:23 conditional. It's not absolute. It is um, you know,

12:31 it you can't bang on that stuff unless you follow all the rules. And I think that was the thing that made me go, I'm

12:39 not only not going to meetings anymore, I'm getting the [ __ ] out of here and I'm running as far as I can. Yeah.

12:48 Um, and I was not ready to leave home and things were real real difficult as a 15year-old with with, you know, uh, no

12:54 support network or resources or anything. And I ended up in pretty dicey situation there for a while. You know, I

13:03 was a homeless street kid. Uh but you know at least I hadn't built an

13:11 entire life and got married and had a family while paring nonsense I didn't believe and I absolutely know why people

13:18 would make that choice. It is real real difficult to break away that early when you've got you know nothing

13:27 but it would have been even harder to shatter a whole bunch of other people's lives by leaving. Um, and that gives them even longer to work the

13:34 conditioning into you, which makes it harder to stand on your own and and get it get get out.

13:41 Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, do did you have any outside support when you left?

13:44 Um, or was it just a completely solitary journey?

13:52 I'm kind of don't know how much I can actually say. Um, I'm very conscious. I only want to tell

14:00 my story. Um there there was another witness kid who was kind of going through the same thing. And while we

14:08 weren't in a position to support each other materially at all, it we did hang out. We played in a band together for a

14:15 while and it was um that that I felt some solidarity with that. My main

14:24 support network was was the band I was playing with and the professional gentleman who supplied me

14:29 with marijuana in order to sell at school. Right. How I made ends meet for a while.

14:35 Um because I kept going to school while living in a tent on the beach, living in the back of a church, in the streets, whatever.

14:44 Wow. Um, weirdly enough, those hard to describe me anything other than a crime family, but they showed me a lot

14:51 more support and unconditional uh fellow feeling than anybody from the church ever did. And they thought my

14:58 situation was kind of tragic. And they were like, well, you know, you can uh keep yourself in in in service station

15:05 pies and uh um sell a bit of weed for us at at your high school. and and they really looked after me to a certain

15:12 extent, you know, they helped me get my first place and uh and that sort of thing. And it feels

15:21 awfully strange to say, you know, the the community Christ loving network dedicated to spreading peace and

15:29 goodwill among earth stole my bicycle while a crime family helped a homeless urchin get on their feet.

15:33 Yeah. The the irony is thick.

15:40 and and those bad guys when I left town there was no oh no you owe us it was all

15:48 like good on you man get out of here get your life started that's awesome you know which is crazy right yeah that is crazy

15:55 so the so I want to talk a bit about the social architecture of the ex jobs and

16:03 you know specifically shunning in family um you know there's they have this policy of dysfellowshipping

16:13 um it's a central pillar of the JW structure. How have you managed to build a chosen family in your life now outside of the organization?

16:20 One of the reasons I didn't want to get baptized is I didn't want to get this fellowship. Um by the time I figured out that eventually I was going to leave, I

16:28 thought, well, if I get baptized and I get this fellowship, um I'll never be able to to speak to my mom ever again, right?

16:32 Well, it turns out if people feel like shunning you, they're going to. Yeah.

16:38 Um, and the other thing was I I ran. I didn't want anything from anybody

16:45 connected to that world. I wanted to either fail horrendously on my own,

16:54 succeed gloriously on my own, or muddle my way through a life of mediocrity on my own. But I just didn't want anything

17:02 from from them. Um, but yeah, certainly other members of the congregation treated me like I might as well as being dysfellowship. No one

17:10 would, you know, acknowledge me or anything like that. But to be fair, I wasn't trying

17:18 to to be acknowledged. I just wanted to get out, make a clean break, and uh get away as far from those manipulative people as possible.

17:26 And you already had sort of a connection with the outside world with your music and your band. So yeah, which was very controversial with the elders. They didn't want me

17:34 of course playing rockus music. Um I mean, you know, it's deeply weird for a teenage boy to want to play an electric guitar.

17:36 I know. That's strange.

17:42 Yeah. If I see teenagers playing a guitar, I slap it out of their hands and say, "No, no, think about your choices.

17:53 Think about your life, son." Yeah. Um but but honestly, music is is always been, you know, if I need a savior, that's what it is.

18:03 You get together with people and you put all your skills together to make something that's way more than any of you are on your own.

18:07 I guess that's what a lot of people want want a church to be like. Yeah.

18:15 You know, so for anybody out there who's looking for that real good feeling and a communal uh enterprise you can get into and actually get something spiritual,

18:22 ethereal, and real out of it, join a band. Yeah. Learn an instrument, you know.

18:28 And and music is something that has always required all of my concentration.

18:36 And same with standup. Like when I'm performing standup, there is no part of my brain that is anxious, depressed, worried, frightened, whatever. There's

18:44 no room for anything else. And I I love that about, you know, creation and performance is the way that it just

18:51 consumes everything you got. There's no bandwidth to feel like [ __ ] A lot a lot of people refer to that as the as the

18:59 flow state. Yeah. Do you do you chime with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool.

19:06 So So for many um leaving leaving at the the organization means losing their

19:14 entire social and familial network overnight. And um you've mentioned a few times how how close you were with your

19:23 mom, how much you loved her. Um, how did you navigate that initial void of connection?

19:32 Well, it's a a whole big complicated bag of worms. There's a there's a bunch of extenduating factors that are probably

19:42 outside of the scope of the conversation we're having that um, yeah, I I I got the [ __ ] out. I ran away, right?

19:50 You know, I At that stage, I felt like

19:56 the church were a a brain parasite that my mother suffered from.

20:07 Um, I mean, reading the publications today, like it's noticeable how dumbed down everything is and how a obviously aiming for idiots they are, right?

20:12 Because that's an easy convert and and an easy person to keep under the thumb.

20:19 My mom was far from an idiot. She was very smart woman. She just had had her

20:26 brain vandalized by by experts. Um, and

20:33 so I didn't I still don't and and never really have I've never really held anything against my parents, you know.

20:41 Uh, both of them did [ __ ] up things, but not because they were [ __ ] up people, because they had [ __ ] up information.

20:43 Yeah.

Most [ __ ] don't know they're being [ __ ] right? They just believe in correct stuff and they're acting on the information that they have for what they

20:51 believe is the best purpose. But if the information is garbage, then the purpose is garbage and the deeds will be garbage.

20:58 But, you know, I’ve never railed against them as people that just, you know, that’s just the mill they had.

21:09 And in particular, my mom, like I said, her upbringing was real hard out.

21:13 And she was never going to turn out 100% normal or well adjusted after that.

21:20 And this is one of the things I get angry at the JDubs about is they do look for people in that state. They look for

21:28 people in a moment of weakness, in a moment of high amount of stress, people who have weaknesses of various sorts. That’s catnet to a cult.

21:38 You know, that is their way in. They promise you, “Oh yeah, you feel like [__] because your life’s real hard.” Well, guess what? In any minute now,

21:46 Jesus is going to come and make it all better. That’s a compelling message to somebody whose reality is inescapably

21:56 [__]

21:57 Yeah. Yeah. Um anytime my brother is in Islam and he has

22:05 been for 35 years and he’s quite fundamentalist and anytime I sort of complain about my

22:12 life, like I’m just having a yarn, just having a moan, he immediately pounces on that and

22:20 goes, “Well, you should become a Muslim because it will solve all of your problems.” And this is true. And this is absolutely

22:29 true because history shows that not one single Muslim has had a bad day in the last 700 years. It’s all made better by the promise of Allah.

22:39 That’s right. That’s a great way to put it. That’s really good.

22:43 So, once you were out, what was an everyday task that was just hard to adjust to?

22:59 everyday task. And the initial

23:07 biggest shock was discovering that worldly people aren’t all thieving

23:14 rapist murderers. You’re taught that nobody outside the religion has a shred of moral fibre.

23:21 encountering people like the gents I mentioned before, people that fall into

23:30 a definition of absolute and sheer horror in the Jehovah’s Witnesses that acted with a greater

23:39 amount of ethicality and moral clarity than a lot of these people that had been

23:47 teaching us all that we’re vile broken slaves. Yeah.

23:52 That was difficult realizing that the outside world had rules too. Yeah.

23:58 boundaries and that they were different ones.

24:05 I don’t know if I really struggled with any kind of everyday task

24:13 because immediately after getting out my life was real hectic, topsy-turvy, desperate scrabble for a while

24:19 there. Got my feet, moved to Christchurch with the band I was playing in in Timaru

24:28 at the time. They helped me out heaps.

24:34 They told me for as long as they’d known me, you got to get out of this weird church you guys go to. They could see that I was at war with

24:42 myself, that at heart I’m kind of a laid-back live-and-let-live empiricist.

24:51 I like measurements. I’m kind of mechanistic. I want things to make sense.

24:59 I don’t really have a spiritual bone in my body.

25:08 I’m kind of mechanistic like that. I want things to make sense. I like it when people’s ideas are

25:16 amenable to change. If you get better information, you should have better ideas.

25:24 You shouldn’t go, “This information might be real good but doesn’t jive with my preconceptions.”

25:29 So you had a level of critical thinking.

25:34 I think quite a lot of people didn’t. It seems like you figured a lot of this out before you’d even left.

25:43 Remember when the evolution book came out… I was reading this going this is so

25:58 flawed on so many levels. They quote scientists but the quotes are stitched together and out of context.

26:07 My superpower was that witnesses are supposed to closely watch what their children consume.

26:15 I figured out if the book looked boring enough on the outside I could read whatever I liked.

26:23 No one checked the title. My peers couldn’t recognise authors.

26:30 So I read everything I could get my hands on.

26:41 That helped me see outside the narrow spectrum of acceptable information.

26:57 You’ve talked about your comedy career and stand-up. You mentioned wanting to be

27:15 busy all the time because anxieties creep in. How do you handle

27:22 triggers or moments when old cult thinking creeps in?

27:34 I use an approach that is at odds with most psychological advice. Don’t use my method.

27:49 Psychotherapists talk about acceptance and allowance.

28:02 I don’t accept and I don’t allow. I will bully myself. It works for me.

28:15 My best defence is a short sharp “come on dude”.

28:30 Didn’t walk all this way to turn back now.

28:33 It’s a win-loss thing. If I lose control of my mind, the old system wins.

28:54 I’ve put too much work into allowing that to happen.

29:00 That’s how I get through things like social phobia.

29:18 I got a job in retail. Forces you to talk to people.

29:22 You handle things head on with brute force.

29:37 There isn’t just one way of recovery. Everyone is different.

29:57 JWs are taught the world is under Satan’s control. When did you realise it wasn’t as dark as you were told?

30:16 I don’t know. I can’t pinpoint the moment.

30:24 I always suspected it wasn’t that bad.

30:33 I was into history. You realise no one is really in charge.

30:50 If anyone is, they need management training.

31:06 If Satan has been running things for thousands of years, you’d expect better results.

31:23 It doesn’t seem to be improving.

31:26 Um and yet despite all the various vectors and ways in which your life can

31:33 go to hell in modern society, people still keep on being good. And you know,

31:41 it’s funny that the one thing that the worldly media and the Watchtower Bible and Tract

31:48 Society kind of both go on about at the same time and myths that need busting.

31:54 They’re both full of [__]. There are more good people than bad people in the world. And there are more smart people than dumb people in the world, right?

32:04 And I think if all of us said that to ourselves at least once a day, it’d be easier because we’re constantly getting

32:12 told that you’re the only clever one and everybody else is a dun.

32:16 You’re the only good one and everybody else is evil. Well, no. [__] that, man.

32:20 When we had the earthquakes in Christchurch, that really pulled the skin off what people really are. Yeah.

32:27 When your city’s falling over and [__] gets real, people are cooperative. Yeah.

32:35 People are not exploitative. They’re collaborative. People look out for other people. And the harder the situation gets, the more good people act.

32:47 Yeah. Right. Yeah.

32:48 Um which, you know, we constantly get told, I mean like even this Lord of the Flies. I remember reading this book as a kid and going, oh gosh, blah blah blah.

32:56 Underneath the skin of every human is nature red in tooth and claw. Well, a bunch of kids did get stranded on a marine island many years ago, right?

33:10 A bunch of Pacifica boys, north of the Strait somewhere around there. And they’re stranded there for a year, right.

33:17 When they finally got picked up, those kids had formed the tightest bonds of anyone ever. They fully cooperated the whole time, had a garden running.

33:25 People actually, the harder you screw people, the more good comes out, which runs counter to the

33:33 narrative told by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you know.

33:37 And if anything, the guys I was talking about who hooked me up with Weedle, they didn’t look like nice people.

33:45 They just acted like nice people when they had the opportunity.

33:59 And I was thinking, if criminals can be like this, why can’t religious people be like this? It just made me realise the whole thing is upside down.

34:15 And the Jehovah’s Witnesses could have done a better job of pretending they’re an organisation that loves light.

34:25 A bunch of stuff went down in the congregations I grew up in that anyone with eyes and ears open could see.

34:33 There was a whole bunch of evil in that organisation and people in positions of trust misused that power.

34:43 On the regular.

34:54 If you want to convince me everyone outside is evil, you better first convince me everyone inside is good.

35:02 And they’ve failed on both counts.

35:08 The math is pretty simple, isn’t it?

35:15 I want to ask about breaking the mental loop. How did you transition from believing Armageddon is around the corner

35:23 to actually planning a life and a future?

35:37 That was the hardest thing. When I first left it was a coin flip, it might all be true.

35:45 If it is, then living in the time of the end has a certain ride to it.

36:01 The conditioning that everything can stop at any moment really messes with your ability to conceive of the future.

36:19 I went through a huge chunk of my life not thinking there was a long term, making short-term decisions and also long-term ones at the same time.

36:35 I only in recent years got a handle on the idea that the future is real and it’s going to happen to me.

36:57 I’ve got ruined teeth I never dealt with because I didn’t think I’d be around long enough for it to matter.

37:15 I could fix my teeth or buy another guitar. I bought guitars. Now I’ve got 11 guitars and a bad smile.

37:36 That’s one of the biggest things that messed with my life without me even realising it.

37:54 What helped change your thinking about Armageddon? Did music, reading or stand-up play a role?

38:11 Growing up through the nuclear threat era, then 9/11 and global paranoia…

38:30 Jehovah doesn’t have a monopoly on ending the world. We can do it ourselves.

38:50 You can actually see world events unfolding. If there’s an Armageddon, we’ll probably cause it ourselves.

39:14 We’ve overtaken any divine force in destructive power.

39:22 Those religious narratives about divine destruction don’t really hold up anymore.

39:37 That “angel killing 185,000 people” story? That’s modern warfare numbers now.

39:52 Being raised in that mindset gives you a weird inoculation against fear of the end of the world.

40:07 Other people panic about World War 3. I’ve lived with that expectation my whole life.

40:16 There were even soldiers complaining about being told wars are for God.

40:52 Christian Zionism and nationalism are deeply tied to end-times thinking.

41:12 Those beliefs shape political actions in real ways.

41:38 There’s little incentive to fix systems if you believe collapse is the goal.

42:10 Jehovah’s Witnesses messed me up, but on the scale of cults they’re relatively small.

42:25 They don’t have the same level of political power as larger ideological systems.

42:43 That helps put things in perspective.

43:09 Christian nationalism and Zionism operate on a much larger scale.

43:23 They use similar systems of control, just with far greater reach and power.

43:27 And they genuinely believe they are doing God’s work.

43:34 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

43:36 I just want to see the look on their faces when their plan works, right? Israel gets destroyed. The blood of the Jews flows into the sea. Blah blah blah.

43:44 Jesus comes down and says, “Hi, I’m Jesus. You might remember me. This is my dad, Jehovah.”

43:50 A lot of people are going to be disappointed when they find out God’s real name.

43:59 There’s been like, “Oh, that stupid little cult got one thing right.” That is the dude’s name.

44:07 One of the things cults often use are thought-stopping phrases to discourage critical thinking. Was there anything you had to unlearn, and what did you replace it with?

44:28 I guess in some ways, my karma ran over my dogma.

44:34 I wasn’t keen to replace one set of arbitrary rules with another.

44:43 I wanted to live life on a scientific basis—try things, measure results, adjust if needed.

44:51 If something works, it’s good. If it doesn’t, rethink it.

44:58 I didn’t want to install a different operating system.

45:06 I briefly looked at other religions and realised an imaginary friend is an imaginary friend.

45:13 Some are more controlling than others, but it’s still the same idea.

45:20 This might offend people, but to me it’s intellectual cowardice.

45:28 Handing over your thinking because it’s easier than deciding what’s right and wrong.

45:35 Learning ethics is hard, but worth it.

45:43 I remember being told as a kid, “The new system will be here by then.”

45:53 I was told that about school, university, everything.

46:08 “You won’t need high school. The new system will be here.”

46:21 Then I went to high school anyway.

46:27 Same for university—always deferred to Armageddon.

46:42 It becomes a way of not making life decisions at all.

46:57 I’m nearly 50 now—I’d have spent my life waiting for something that never comes.

47:13 If we build a better system, it’ll be humans who do it.

47:28 You were physically in but mentally out for a long time.

47:36 Music and reading helped develop your thinking, but it was already there.

47:45 Just a busy brain. Curious.

47:53 Curiosity is my favourite quality in people.

48:00 Everyone deserves a second chance, but uncurious people frustrate me.

48:08 People who don’t want to know things aren’t engaging in being human.

48:17 We’re supposed to be curious, restless, figuring things out.

48:23 That drive was always there in me.

48:33 If I’d been in a more complex religion, I might have stayed longer.

48:42 But Jehovah’s Witness doctrine is shallow—there’s no depth to explore.

48:50 No rich intellectual or spiritual depth to dig into.

49:04 So there was nowhere for me to go with it intellectually.

49:22 We’re getting to the end now—three questions we ask every guest.

49:34 If you could speak to yourself the day you left, what would you say?

49:45 You got this.

49:51 What supported you the most?

50:01 Art. All forms of it—painting, writing, comedy, music.

50:15 Creation is something you can lose yourself in completely.

50:26 You make something, and people respond to it immediately.

50:45 That feeling is real.

50:52 It got me through a lot.

50:58 Instead of waiting for God to fix everything, you create something yourself.

51:09 That’s a terrible way to live—waiting like that.

51:13 Creation is the opposite of that mindset.

51:19 What would you say to someone encountering a cult survivor?

51:35 It’s about empathy. Everyone deserves a way back.

51:55 Whether it’s crime or conditioning, people can return.

52:04 Remember they may be inexperienced in the wider world.

52:14 But also recognise their strength—they left something deeply controlling.

52:56 They need both empathy and respect.

53:14 Thank you for your honesty, humour, and insight.

53:29 These stories go deeper than just a stage performance.

53:41 If something resonated, slow down and reflect.

53:52 Unspinning is messy, not neat.

54:06 Until next time—keep questioning.

0:00 Welcome to tonight’s show. We are continuing on with our Jehovah’s Witness series. In this episode, we’re sitting down with someone who’s born into the Jehovah’s Witness community, often

0:08 abbreviated as JW. They’ll share what life looked like growing up inside the faith, the beliefs, the expectations, and the impact those early experiences

0:17 had on their sense of self. We’ll also talk about what it’s taken to untangle from that world, and the ongoing process of rebuilding, healing, and finding

0:25 solid ground beyond it. So, tonight we are interviewing Royden Gibbs. Hi everyone. Royden Gibbs grew up as a second generation member of a Jehovah’s

0:33 Witness family. In the early 1950s, his mother, grandmother, and father were recruited by Jehovah’s Witnesses and

0:41 became members. A decade later, Royden was born the youngest of five in a family fully immersed in the world of

0:48 Jehovah Witnesses. At the age of 15, he became a dedicated member and left school to become an enthusiastic and

0:56 committed full-time recruiter. In his early 20s, he became a worker at the National Headquarters for Jehovah’s

1:03 Witnesses in New Zealand, bringing him close contact with national and international leaders of the Jehovah’s

1:11 Witnesses. By the age of 26, Royden was burnt out and found himself, shamed, shunned, and ostracised by the only

1:20 community he had ever known. This plunged Royden into a dark period of addictions, depression, and despair,

1:27 followed by recovery and the creating of a new life. Royden is now in his 60s, and his life is very different from the one

1:34 he experienced in the first 26 years of his life. So Royden, can you give us a little update about yourself now?

1:43 Thank you, Joy. Yes. Um, as has just been mentioned, I’m in my 60s. I recently had my second birthday. Just a few weeks ago, I celebrated my 25th

1:52 wedding anniversary with my wife. And, uh, we’re quite keen to try for another 25. So, things are going well there.

1:57 We’ve had the pleasure of raising three children. Uh, two from a previous marriage of hers and a son of our own.

2:03 They’re all grown up and left home. Now we’re at home with the dog and the cat, but the kids are all close handy with their partners and our now six grandchildren who are all part of our

2:12 lives on a fairly regular basis. We um live a simple life. We’ve got a nice comfortable home with a beautiful garden which my wife puts a lot of work into

2:20 and I got a workshop of my own there that I potter away in. Professionally, I still work full-time. I’ve been for 25 years been in the learning and

2:27 development profession. I currently work with a company that takes me around the country running facilitating workshops for teams of people within different organizations basically helping them

2:35 learn useful stuff that helps them to do their jobs. So great keeps me occupied.

2:39 Can you give us a brief background of your experience in the Jehovah’s Witness cult?

2:44 The intro gave I guess the background as to being raised in a Jehovah’s Witness family. I was the youngest of five. So by the time I was born the family was

2:52 fully into it for over a decade. It was the only world I knew growing up. We had a pretty straightforward, you know, on the surface the life was uh there was,

3:00 you know, straightforward things in life. Um, you know, barbecues at home and mowing the lawn and looking after the chooks and going to school and doing all those things. But all of that

3:09 happened within very prescribed framework of a of Witness life.

3:16 So, in addition to those normal things, there was the abnormal things. There was being expected to go and knock on doors every weekend and other days, with the fear that, well, the hope that you weren’t on

3:24 the same street that one of your peers at school happened to be living on.

3:31 And as the era that I was growing up, there was incessant meeting. There was like a Monday night we would be at home preparing for the Tuesday night meeting and then we’d go to a Tuesday night

3:39 meeting and then Wednesday night we’d be at home preparing for the Thursday night meeting and then on a Thursday night we’d go to another meeting and then Friday night we’d be getting ready to go

3:47 door knocking on Saturday morning and Saturday morning we’d go door knocking and then Sunday we would go to another meeting and then do some more door knocking potentially.

3:55 So our life was very consumed by the Witness activities and practices and the beliefs.

4:04 I think the most fundamental thing was the them and us-ness of Witnesses, the sense that we were part of a very special community of people who understood something that no one else was prepared to accept.

4:13 It wasn’t so much that other people just didn’t get it. It’s just they weren’t prepared to hear it. And so we lived in this closed community.

4:20 The promise was that, you know, I would grow up and the world would end at Armageddon and all the other people would get killed and then we’d be left and we’d get to live

4:27 forever on earth and it would all be a paradise and you could do all the things you ever wanted to do.

4:32 In hindsight now it was a fairly distorted view of life in the universe and of your neighbours and people around you, but that was the norm.

4:39 That permeated everything we did and that them and us-ness was a significant factor growing up.

4:51 Interviewer: So talking about the point that decided to leave, what was the catalyst moment that led you to leaving?

4:59 Royden: The catalyst was the Witnesses. I didn’t decide to leave at all. I was a very committed devoted Witness as a young person.

5:07 I left school at 15 to become a full-time recruiter and to devote my life to door knocking basically.

5:15 I’ve worked out since in my late teens and early 20s I probably spent about 7,000 hours knocking on people’s doors and knocked on 30,000 doors.

5:24 Rule of odds meant I probably got in front of about 10,000 people, of which maybe 1500 I had in-depth conversations with about what I thought they should believe.

5:33 So I was highly committed and focused on that and worked my way through the organisation with different roles, eventually ending up at headquarters.

5:42 That put me around leaders locally, and international leaders would visit as well, so I was very immersed in it.

5:50 But by my early 20s I became decidedly disoriented and depressed. I initially thought it was depression.

5:58 Because of the mindset of Witnesses, the fault of course was all mine. I obviously wasn’t doing something right, so I just worked harder and harder and burnt myself out.

6:14 I left headquarters thinking I needed to be back out on the street, but things didn’t improve. I became more depressed, more anxious, more disoriented.

6:22 I started behaving in ways that weren’t in keeping with the Witnesses or with what I wanted either.

6:30 I started taking trips into town, visiting places I shouldn’t have visited, nightclubs and the like, and that distressed me.

6:38 I went to the elders and said something is wrong with me, I’m spiritually sick, you need to help me.

6:46 They tried to help me, but things escalated.

6:54 Eventually I ended up making use of the services of an entrepreneurial young lady on the street, which really threw me.

7:02 I confessed everything to the elders. Initially they tried to help, but eventually they said they could not have me in the congregation.

7:17 I was disfellowshipped just before my 26th birthday.

7:24 That felt like being executed or terminated. I was traumatised.

7:35 The choice to leave wasn’t a choice. I was abandoned.

7:45 There is a phrase now, pimo and pome. I was physically out but mentally still in.

7:55 I still believed they were right and I was wrong, and I thought God would eventually fix me and I could return.

8:16 Interviewer: Did you have any support during the exit process or was it a totally solitary journey?

8:22 Royden: I think solitary is the word. I stayed briefly with my parents, but it was very uncomfortable for everyone.

8:30 I ended up getting accommodation by myself.

8:38 I couldn’t live with “worldly people” according to what I’d been taught, even though I was out.

8:47 I ended up flatting alone, which was lonely and isolating.

9:28 The one connection I made was with a brother who had been pushed out years earlier.

9:37 I hadn’t spoken to him for about 6 years, but I found him again.

9:46 He was the only person who really understood what I was going through.

10:10 Interviewer: What were the most challenging everyday tasks?

10:18 Royden: Finding somewhere to live was the biggest immediate challenge.

10:34 My employment ended, so I had to rebuild everything from scratch.

10:50 I moved into hospitality work fairly quickly, but I had no financial reserves at all.

11:11 I had no money, no support, nothing accumulated from those years of door knocking.

11:20 Even simple decisions about time and daily life felt unfamiliar and chaotic.

11:33 Interviewer: How did you untangle ideology from personal values?

11:47 Royden: That process was gradual over many years.

11:55 A key idea I came across was that we act ourselves into new ways of thinking rather than thinking our way into action.

12:19 Real experiences with people slowly changed my understanding.

12:38 I discovered that people I was told were “bad” were often kind and supportive.

12:55 One woman I worked with provided real friendship and support while I was struggling.

13:21 Those experiences slowly eroded the beliefs I had grown up with.

13:45 Later, the internet became a turning point.

13:54 I found ex-Witnesses online, including someone who had worked at headquarters in New York.

14:10 That helped me realise I wasn’t alone in questioning things.

14:25 Interviewer: How do you handle triggers?

14:38 Royden: They don’t happen as much now, but in the early years they were strong.

14:56 Events like war or earthquakes would trigger deep fear responses.

15:12 My wife helped calm me during one earthquake when I became overwhelmed.

15:28 I realised those reactions came from childhood teachings and imagery.

15:44 I have worked through those experiences as they have come up.

15:50 Today, the deeper themes that still arise are around rejection and abandonment.

15:54 And so um uh there can there can be situations that pop up for me around that can trigger that sense of I’m being

16:02 rejected again and abandoned. And and like I said earlier, you know, when I experienced that as a Witness, the kind of metaphors or analogies that I’d grown up with is that’s that’s kind of like an

16:11 execution, you know, it’s kind of like you’ve been not just banished, but you were being got rid of. But I have certainly learned some tools to help me with that. And that there’s there’s

16:19 there’s um you know, it’s I think it goes back to accumulated experience. I now know that that’s not reality and

16:25 that I’ve had experiences of reality and that I can when the triggers arise remind myself that that’s not where I am

16:33 now and that’s not what I think. And I did a period of over 5 years of with a trained therapist, right?

16:40 And I remember that was one of the things that she would often say when we would recount experiences that I’ve had and she just helped me to learn that phrase. She said, you know, she would

16:49 say, I’d describe a situation, how I’d felt about it, and she’d say to me, Royden, but you’re not there now, are you? And it was that ability to learn how to tell myself, but I’m not there

16:57 now. I’m here. Um, and over time, I’ve learned to be able to remind myself and also remind myself that there’s a

17:06 different reality and that that’s the one I have now. But it it’s yeah, it takes a lot of work over a long period of time and um it’s not comfortable when

17:14 you’re working through that. It can be really quite painful to work through that. And I’m really grateful for other people. I know the last 27 years I’ve been with my wife. I’m so grateful that

17:23 times, you know, we we help each other, but she certainly helped me through some of those without a doubt those moments of being able to process where’s that

17:30 come from and what’s that mean and um get into the present.

17:34 I really like that. It’s kind of like you’re identifying where it’s coming from, what it is, kind of naming it, and then putting it in its proper

17:43 context and then being in the now cuz that’s where you are.

17:48 Yeah, absolutely.

17:54 I love that. Who is the person you are today compared to the person you were inside the group?

18:02 I think that’s a really quite a good question. Um, Alisa, cuz it’s this is something I have thought about over time and, you know, in more recent times

18:10 because it strikes me how dramatically different I am in many ways. There’s some fundamental things about me that are still me in my disposition

18:18 and the like, but there’s some dramatic contrasts. If you had met me as a 20-year-old or a 21-year-old, you would

18:26 have met a very dogmatic, rules-based uh very kind of intense young man.

18:34 Even amongst other Witnesses, there was a guy I used to recruit with. We were partnered up and worked around different places together and he

18:41 eventually left as well. And we used to talk about that. I remember telling my wife once about me and it makes the Witnesses I was a bit more intense than

18:50 most, I think. And he used to say we used to find it so frustrating because we’d flat together and he said I could never have a conversation with Royden about a topic without him having

18:58 to quote things all the time. You know, there was always a scripture and a verse and a quote from a Witness publication that gave the answer. I had no opinion

19:07 of my own. It was just the book says this, the rules say that. So that was who I was. Now I’m decidedly

19:13 enamoured by chaos and doubt and really enjoy it.

19:18 There’s nothing more interesting than the fact that I haven’t got a clue.

19:26 I just have a curiosity. Awe and wonder are the fundamental things that really matter to me now.

19:34 We live in an awesomely wonderful universal reality, whatever it is. But at the same time, it’s mysteriously completely incomprehensible.

19:42 There’s no way to fully work it out.

19:53 And that’s fine. I’m comfortable with it and revel in it in many ways.

20:00 Going back to what I mentioned before, as a young Witness with all of the intensity and prescription about how life should be and what the answers are, I was a decidedly fearful, anxious, mixed-up young man.

20:17 That’s not who I am now. I’m very comfortable in my own skin and at ease with life and who I am.

20:25 I think that’s a massive difference. The level of peace and contentment I have now I couldn’t have imagined as a young Witness.

20:38 I didn’t have the language to comprehend what it could mean to be okay with yourself.

20:46 So, what passions or hobbies have you reclaimed or discovered for yourself that the group would never have allowed?

20:54 I don’t think anything specifically sticks out. It’s interesting because as a young Witness I expected I was going to live forever

21:03 on earth. So I could have all the interests in the world, just not yet because I had to wait until the new world.

21:10 One day I’d get to do anything I wanted. Part of the frustration once I got out was realising I’d missed time.

21:19 I could have been doing those things already.

21:30 One of the things I really value now is my love of learning and curiosity and the freedom to explore things.

21:44 I’m a bit of a learning nerd and I’m constantly exploring new ideas and thinking.

21:53 Growing up, if someone offered me something to read at the door, I would never take it because it wasn’t okay.

22:00 In the early days after leaving, while still in the midst of alcohol and chaos, I worked in a hotel in Christchurch opposite the public library.

22:13 During split shifts I would go to the library and work my way through philosophy books and anything that caught my attention.

22:27 I don’t remember half of what I read, but it pushed me forward.

22:35 There was a thrill to pulling books off shelves that once felt forbidden.

22:43 I’ve never let go of that curiosity.

22:54 It’s different for someone raised in a cult versus recruited into one.

23:03 The only thing I could really go back to was what I’d had before.

23:06 I’ve looked at it like an upcycling process.

23:12 There were things in those first 25 years that had some value and merit. A lot was harmful and got discarded, but some things I’ve managed to reclaim and make my own.

23:31 The policy of disfellowshipping is a central pillar of the JDub structure.

23:36 How have you managed to build a chosen family outside the organisation?

23:44 That’s something I’ve definitely done.

23:49 I still have two siblings in the JDubs and they’ve continued shunning me throughout my life.

24:01 They mostly only turn up at funerals and then there might be a brief conversation or a nudge about coming back.

24:16 For the first seven years after leaving, drugs and alcohol kept me going.

24:26 By the time I was 33 I was in a very dark place and considering ending my life.

24:41 But eventually things began to change and my recovery journey started.

24:50 Before that, there were still people around me who provided some form of community and camaraderie.

25:06 Once I surfaced from that dark period, I became very proactive about building healthy community around myself.

25:14 I’ve been really blessed with a loving relationship, family, grandchildren, friends, and meaningful relationships.

25:23 I’ve experienced friendship in ways I never could have imagined as a Witness.

25:30 As a Witness, there was this illusion that the brotherhood was completely unique and couldn’t exist elsewhere.

25:39 But when that same brotherhood throws you out and refuses to look at you again, eventually the illusion breaks.

25:44 The bubble bursts.

25:52 Now I have real people in my life and real relationships.

25:56 Along that subject of relationships, many leaving the JDubs lose their entire social and familial network overnight.

26:04 How did you navigate that initial void of connection?

26:10 In the very early weeks and months, I simply took on more work at the hotel.

26:18 I discovered there was a bar that stayed open all night and that became my social world.

26:36 I basically lived at the bar and met people from all kinds of backgrounds.

26:49 That became my community for a while and I learned a lot about people and life there.

27:06 We are all a mixed bag. There’s good and bad in everyone.

27:13 There were special people from that time I still remember fondly.

27:22 We’d sit up all night listening to Leonard Cohen and looking after each other while both struggling.

27:37 Eventually I entered residential treatment for alcoholism and addictions for six weeks.

27:44 That introduced me to recovery communities and other people rebuilding their lives after trauma.

27:59 But after a couple of years, I realised I didn’t want to fall into another them-and-us mentality.

28:08 I didn’t want it to become “us recovered addicts versus everyone else.”

28:17 So I became proactive about expanding my world and relationships.

28:33 I still stay connected with people in recovery because I want to support others too.

28:42 But I deliberately broadened my community through study, work, Toastmasters, and professional associations.

29:01 Did the pendulum swing the other way where you ended up saying yes to everything?

29:08 Without a doubt.

29:16 I would volunteer for everything.

29:24 My wife helped me recognise that tendency over time.

29:40 If someone needed help, I would instantly say yes.

29:53 One of the biggest things I had to learn was how to say no.

30:01 In a cult you’re conditioned to be agreeable, compliant, and always of service.

30:08 Learning to say no and feel comfortable doing it has been a major journey for me.

30:09 And uh I feel pretty good that I’ve made some progress with that one. Yeah. But it took a bit of work.

30:14 How did you handle the transition from the belief that Arman is just around the corner to planning for a long-term future? immediate responses Alicia to that is I think that was gradual as well. I think that was quite gradual and it’s like I was mentioned it’s messy.

30:30 The recovery from a cult is it’s not a straight line. It’s spaghetti and so you get triggered by things and it whips us back in at times and etc. And like I said I’ve shared before of experiences you know you know you watch the news and something happens and it triggers those memories because you were conditioned by it.

30:44 I’m grateful to say that that doesn’t tend to happen now. uh you know like uh uh I’m pretty comfortable with that kind of trigger. I’ve been able to uh not only experientially work my way through that but now also intellectually really work me way through it. But I’ve had to replace that with other stuff. I think

31:02 that’s the thing, you know, and I’ve done some, you know, my own desire to learn and studying things and and um you know, just studying what science can tell us about the universe and the length of time we’ve been around and the context of you know, all of those things kind of puts makes those stories that

31:18 you got told seem quite pitiful, right?

31:21 Cuz there’s so much us there’s so much other stuff that’s a lot more valid and reliable to look at. It’s phenomenally more awesome.

31:30 Absolutely. And so, so I guess over time replaced what I now see as quite pitiful beliefs. And I say that deliberately.

31:38 They’re quite puny beliefs. They’re kind of built on very simplistic, naive thinking. Yeah.

31:45 That’s used to manipulate people with a far bigger understanding, I believe, and bigger

31:52 sense of life, the universe, and everything. Yeah.

31:55 And um and I continue to pursue that, you know, like I’m keen to learn those things. I was just watching a thing on YouTube last night. These guys went out into the desert and kind of mapped out

32:02 with LED lights, you know, the history of time of the universe and then spanned back to show how long, you know, how big it is. And then, you know, the the one,

32:10 you know, the kind of the five cm at the end, which is how long we’ve been around as humans. And watching things like that just changes your whole perspective. You

32:18 know, somebody’s little story about, you know, in 1914 someone turned up and that happened and then in 1920 this, you know, it just all becomes nonsense.

32:27 Yeah. and trivy trivial.

32:28 Like a huge part of your journey has been um through educating yourself and um kind of learning new ways of being on the planet and that’s done through learning.

32:41 Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is I had the privilege a number of years ago to share my story in a context around

32:48 rehabilitation and um the person who was the lead of that project was who’s passed away now. They were a professor of of medicine and a leader in the field

32:56 of rehabilitation and they make that point that rehabilitation is a learning process. Yeah.

33:02 And they were looking in the medical sector. You know, it’s not a medical event. It’s a learning process. Yeah.

33:06 But I think it’s the same when we’ve been in a cult to recover or to rehabilitate or habilitate

33:13 some of us who rehabilitating. In other words, finding our home in the world. It is a learning process. And I I’m biased because I, you know, that’s my profession is learning. But that’s what intrigues me. I think that’s what drawn me professionally as well is just that intrigue with how do you and I

33:29 particularly as adults make sense of our lives and our activities and how do we Yeah. And and and part of it for me has

33:37 been discovering that I have the ability to narrate the story for myself. Early on in my my my addictions recovery, I had a a mentor, a support person who who

33:45 I remember talking to one night and I was in a relationship at the time that didn’t last and and he said, “How’s it going?” Oh, it’s not going so well. I don’t know what to do. And I remember he

33:53 said to me at that time, he said, “Well, Rod,” and he said, “There’s no instruction book for that relationship.” He says, “You have to write it yourself.” Yeah.

34:00 It’s up to you. And I think that’s part of that learning process of discovering you have to you have to write your own script as you go. Yeah. You have agency.

34:08 Yeah. And yeah, it’s quite a tricky journey for sure. JDubs famously don’t celebrate birthdays or Christmas. What was the

34:16 first forbidden celebration that you participated in and what were the emotions attached to it? This is one of my favorite questions.

34:23 Interesting. Yes. Um yeah, it’s not just birthdays and stuff. The one one of the things that strikes me about my youth, about my childhood, there was no extracurricular activity around school

34:32 either. So no after school sports, not that I was into sport, but but I like the arts and stuff. And so there was I remember once in my teenage years, I

34:40 managed to get involved with the school production. And I was allowed to go for one night to assist the lighting, but the other nights were meeting nights.

34:46 And I had to tell the team I can’t come that night to participate in the instru camps. Never went on school camps. And I remember one little country school I

34:54 lived at. You know, two school two classroom country school. All the big class went to camp. I stayed behind with the juniors for the for the week. Crazy

35:02 stuff. But as we’re against those events, I uh exited. It was just about the time of my 26th birthday, which was February. I think the first real pay,

35:12 you know, you know, event I went to did was was Christmas at the end of that year. I ended up in a temporary relationship with a woman and she took

35:20 me home with her f to her family for Christmas dinner. I remember sitting there thinking this is a Christmas dinner and uh yeah, that was the first kind of like yeah for that. Yeah. Her

35:30 mother was Lebanese. The spread was really good. It was a lovely food. Okay.

35:34 It was really good and it was a simple little you know family event. But beyond that, those things have once again I’m really grateful to my wife, you know, 27

35:42 years ago we met and that was just before my birthday and she had just missed my it was just after my birthday. Yeah.

35:48 And when I started talking to her and explained things at the time she had two children of her own before we had our son. Uh it was you weeks of meeting and

35:55 I went around to their she she organized a birthday for me, a birthday party for me.

36:01 Yeah. to help me celebrate and and so over the years she’s really helped me to kind of value that and I I do enjoy birthdays now and sharing and all that

36:09 kind of stuff and we have our own you know and Christmas etc. And you know we don’t have Christmas so much as a religious thing but it is a it’s a it’s

36:16 a it’s a I mean it’s a cultural so social marker social marker and I think my observation

36:24 is is that people who do celebrate Christmas you know which is a high majority of people every family has their own version of what that means for them and and that’s how how it works. So

36:32 I’ve come to value what it means for our family. Yeah.

36:38 Oh it’s very interesting. So, I I want to talk about regaining your your bodily autonomy and and safety.

36:46 Have you found any specific grounding techniques or physical practices that help calm your nervous system when you feel a trauma response coming on?

36:55 The immediate things I think of are the fairly obvious ones, I guess, that everybody’s familiar with. You can’t beat your lungs. They’re good things, lungs. And, uh, remembering to use your

37:04 lungs is really helpful. And I’ve certainly learned to do that over the years to breathe to just pause and be really conscious of your breathing. I

37:11 think that’s indispensable. It has been for me to remember to do that posture as well. The other thing I found really helpful is selft talk and little things

37:19 that have come to me. There have been pivotable moments in my life where I’ve had little realizations not little realizations quite deep profound realizations for myself. And one

37:27 realization I had at a a significant turning point was that sense of awareness that whoever I am, no more, no less, in any given moment of time, is all I need to be in that moment of time.

37:38 And that’s been a mantra that I’ve kept through for many years now is that whoever you are, no more, no less, is all you need to be in this moment. So

37:47 when the anxiety surfaces or whatever or the confusion arrives or I become disoriented around things, I’ve I’ve found things like that mantra or

37:55 whatever you want to call it or that just kind of like selft talk to tell me I’m okay right now. And once again that’s experiential because I’ve got a

38:02 I’ve got a memory of the fact that there have been past times when I’ve experienced that that despite everything going wrong it’s actually I’m okay.

38:11 Another thing that um you know that preceded that was I came across in my reading you know I used to go to the library and find books to read and I

38:18 came across this little statement. I don’t know where this comes from now I said but it stuck with me and the statement said you cannot lose what truly belongs to you even if you throw it away.

38:27 You have the best statements.

38:29 Well and that but that stuck with me and that’s got me through. you know when I thought everything was getting lost you know I’ve been able to anchor myself on

38:38 those little anchors that I found that was good self-t talk for me you know you can’t lose you cannot lose what truly

38:45 belongs to you even if you throw it away it’s if it’s yours it’s yours and so that sense of intrinsic identity and

38:52 self I’ve learned to hold on to for dear life cuz it is dear life and uh to really trust it but you know on an

39:00 everyday basis I’ve learned that it’s good to get active not in a compulsive way, but to do stuff. You know, I’ve got a workshop at home and I like, you know,

39:08 making stuff and I got a lovely garden at home and my wife does most of the work in the garden, but I try my best to help out and I do enjoy getting my hands

39:15 dirty. So, those things and the other thing that simple level I’ve, you know, playlists of music, you know, there’s, you know, I still listen to Leonard

39:22 Cohen. I just I don’t need the Jack Daniels and Dope anymore.

39:25 Yeah. But I can listen to Leonard Cohen or you know there’s I got a playlist of Johnny Cash you know the revisited

39:32 versions he did and uh you know like yeah even a bit of Nick Cave or someone can get me into that into that mood of just feeling tuned into my emotions and

39:42 every now and again I’ll do I’ll listen to one of those playlists and I’ll have a bit of a ball and a cry and come out of it feeling a hell of a lot better

39:49 because sometimes we just need to you know let it flow and I found things music helps me tap into that. Yeah, that they’re helpful things that I found.

39:57 Great. We’ve got a few final questions.

40:00 If you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say? I would say Reiden, trust yourself.

40:07 Yeah, trust yourself. Uh, and it’s that other saying that that I mentioned before that no matter who you are, no more, no less, that’s all you need to be right now, mate.

40:16 Yeah.

40:16 And I know in hindsight that that was what’s going on. And so, yeah, if I was to go back to the early ro and I would say, look, you’re okay, mate. You’re not

40:23 flawed. You’re not unclean. You’re not defective. You’re not unacceptable.

40:29 You’re okay, dude. You’re okay. And wherever you’re at, that’s all you need to be right now. Yeah.

40:35 The next bit will come next. And trust yourself.

40:37 Uh, you know, and very much trust yourself cuz that’s at the heart of the kind of the antidote to cults. Cults will tell you not to trust yourself.

40:45 Exactly.

40:46 That you must you need them to tell you what’s right.

40:49 So I I treasure that deeply. I trust myself now. I know what I need to know.

40:54 M that’s great. That’s great. So, if you if you had to name one thing that supported you the most throughout your recovery, what would that be?

41:02 Um I think jot something down to prompt me with this. Let me have a think. I think it’s that sense of that I’m okay. But I

41:10 I think at the heart of it has been a deep intrinsic desire to be me and to be a healthy me.

41:16 Right? that that there was, you know, uh I’ll credit my mother with this, despite the fact that she was trapped in the

41:24 Jehovah’s Witness world her whole life, you know, you know, right to the end of her life and rather unpleasant trap really distorted distorted her life

41:34 significantly. But I remember we were young people. She quite liked novel things and she she got a poster of the the desert which is not Max poetry

41:42 desert. It was hanging on the wall in our house for a period of time. I don’t think it’s soaked through. There’s a little phrase in there. I’m going to go for another we quote for you. Sorry. The

41:49 thing is there’s a little phrase and I paraphrase it’s slightly different to what how Max wrote it, but it says you’re a child of the universe less than

41:57 the trees and the stars. You belong here. Yeah.

42:00 And I think that’s at the heart of it for me. Somewhere inside of me, there’s been a part of me that knew I did belong here and I just need to stick with it.

42:10 And now I’m very convinced of that.

42:12 Early days, it was hidden and I didn’t really understand it. But I think there was something in me that said you you’re supposed to be here, Royden, and there’s there’s good reason to be here.

42:20 Yeah. Yeah.

42:21 That’s perfect. What would you like people to know about people leaving cult people needing leaving? I would have valued more support from people who understood what I’d been experiencing.

42:31 That would have been nice, you know, but I learned from what I what happened. I learned from what happened. But um I guess it goes back to that same thing.

42:38 If if if you cross paths with someone who’s left a cult, it’s likely to be quite messy for them. It’s likely to be quite confusing for them. It’s going to

42:45 be traumatic in some ways for them. Let them be where they’re at. Don’t try and fix them. Don’t try and correct them.

42:52 Don’t try and and put them right. Let them be where they’re at. Because wherever they’re at, whoever they are at that point in time is all they need to

43:00 be, but be there with them. Be there with them. Let them know that you accept them and you’re prepared to accept wherever they’re at. Because I know in the, you

43:08 know, first decade of me exiting the the cult world, my thinking at times was really quite wonky. Yeah.

43:14 And they’re likely to have some wonky thinking. Accept them. Yeah.

43:18 Let them know they’re okay wherever they’re at and time will time will be there with them as they make the journey.

43:25 Yeah. That that that kind of compassion is very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

43:29 Okay. So, uh that’s us. We’re going to wrap up this episode of Unspun. A huge thanks to you, Royden. I’m sure your

43:36 story your story will inspire and give hope to to many people. Thank you for spending this time with us. We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re

43:44 grateful you trusted us enough to listen. And spinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to feel. If anything came up for you today,

43:52 please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to.

43:56 You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us.

44:03 until next time. This is unspun.