0:01 Welcome to another episode of Unspun, where we unravel the stories of cult recovery, examine how people recover, and focus on thriving. Welcome, Grace.

0:12 Thanks for having me.

0:14 First, I’ll fill you in on a bit about Grace and then we’ll start the interview. Grace is a third generation

0:22 cult member and became the first person in her family to break the cycle of abuse and high control thinking. It has

0:29 taken years for her to fully understand what happened to her and to begin undoing the beliefs, behaviors, and

0:36 worldview she was raised to accept as normal. Much of her healing and deconstruction journey was done alone,

0:45 learning from scratch how to rebuild her sense of self, think critically, and live outside the system she grew up in.

0:53 In recent years, her sister joined her on that journey, which helped accelerate the process of unpacking and making a sense of their shared experiences.

1:04 She moved in and out of the group from her early 20s, navigating the complex pull of family conditioning, fear, and

1:12 identity while slowly finding her own path forward. It’s great to have you here.

1:19 Thanks. It’s so exciting. Yeah, nerve-wracking. You know how it is.

1:23 Yeah, definitely nerve-wracking. Um, but just relax. It shouldn’t be too full on.

1:29 Um, I guess to start with, we’d just like to get a kind of background of um, the cult that you were a part of um, and

1:39 who held the power and that kind of stuff within the group. Um, could you give us a brief overview of the cult you were a part of?

1:48 So um they call themselves message believers um to the outside world. I think Google calls them brandites or

1:55 banimism depending. Um yeah.

1:58 So for me growing up in it I I didn’t know this. I we just called ourselves message believers. So um if for us it it

2:07 looked very much like for women very controlling. Um men had all the power.

2:12 women were essentially there to just have as many children as they could um and listen to their husbands. Uh there wasn’t

2:20 there wasn’t a lot of happy roles for women in there. Um yeah, it was

2:29 very kept very very sort of quiet. You you kept very isolated from the outside world and you weren’t allowed to really talk about it because they just didn’t

2:37 understand. Um right.

2:39 So yeah, it was I don’t even know how I would describe it to an outside person, but you you can tell that they’re different because the woman would be the big standout points.

2:50 You weren’t allowed to cut your hair, no makeup, no jewelry, you’d be wearing dresses to the floor. Um it was frowned

2:57 upon if you had them any higher than your knees are very frowned upon. You get a talking to from all the big wigs. Yeah.

3:05 So, it’ be things like that. Um and the men had it pretty easy. So yeah, as a woman it was really really rough.

3:12 Right. And did you all live together on a compound or did you live in separate houses?

3:18 So the theory was that we were um in this world but not a part of it.

3:24 So they utilized that as a way of like we had our own houses in different parts of areas of the community like all over New Zealand there’s churches um and we

3:32 came together under one belief in the church. So you would often times not know that they’re in the community.

3:40 Yeah. So um I guess you just mentioned before that it sounds like men held the

3:47 power. So quite a patriarchal kind of setup. Yeah.

3:52 So um women were not allowed to teach uh except in Sunday schools where they were caring for children anyway. So it was part of their role. Um but they would

4:00 prefer it if they could have a Sunday school teacher that was a male. But often times most the men teachers were either pastors or teachers that went

4:08 overseas um and they’ hold like men’s meetings or pastors meetings and you could never be a female pastor.

4:16 Right. Yeah.

4:17 So that was it was quite a shock to me when I found out other people outside of the church were female pastors. It was like what?

4:25 Yeah. Right. Such a foreign concept. Yeah. How did that translate um into the home?

4:32 Uh the man was the head of the house. He made the decisions. Um the woman was there to fulfill his needs. A lot of times in a household of a married

4:41 couple, um the husband would be working, the woman would be staying home all day looking after the children, keeping the house clean. Um and he’d come home and,

4:49 you know, he would get to relax and wind down and the woman would never stop. She would stop until she went to bed, basically. Wow.

4:55 Um and you got to see that from a very young age in a lot of households. And a lot of times um if a woman was speaking

5:04 out they would the leaders of the church would turn to the men and be like you need to control your wife. Um and if there was no man in that household the

5:12 deacons would come to the wife the the woman and be like if you don’t control your children or do make them behave we’re going to start getting down on you

5:20 kind of thing. Um right smacking was very common in the ch in the church and within a household. Um

5:27 it was quite common to see children dragged out of church screaming and getting smacked quite severely. Like I I say smacked as it was beating, right?

5:36 It was very violent. Yeah.

5:38 Yeah. It was very rough seeing that and looking back now. It’s horrible.

5:43 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Do you have memories of that kind of thing?

5:47 Yeah. Yeah, I do. Um I have ADHD and autism, so I really struggle to sit still. For me, I’m always fidgeting, always moving something. And I could

5:55 never sit still in church. Um, and before my parents split up, my dad used to take me out and regularly smack me.

6:02 Um, and then when he was not there, the deacons would come up behind me and tap me on the shoulder and give me a look.

6:08 Like, it was you sort your [ __ ] out or we’re going to smack you. Um, and if that didn’t work, then they’d sit me next to the door next

6:16 to them the whole church service, right? Oh, that sounds so intimidating.

6:21 So intimidating. Yeah. You’d be sitting there just like sitting on your hands like hoping you don’t twitch the wrong way.

6:26 Right. Oh, that sounds awful. So horrible. Hated church.

6:32 So, I guess that answers the question about the roles for men and women. It sounds like a very traditional kind of

6:41 um church where women wear the long dresses and long hair and men got to do whatever they want essentially.

6:49 Yeah. The only rules they really had was, you know, no drinking, no alcohol. They had to have their hair tidy.

6:55 They weren’t allowed to wear shorts was like the only rule. But in each individual households, people kind of did their like they flexed a little bit

7:03 on the rules, but you would never do it at like a church gathering ever.

7:07 Right. What was it like in your household?

7:10 Um, it was very strict early on and then after my dad left, my mom took over the role and essentially just reinforced it.

7:17 And I think she was actually probably harder than my dad would have been, right? Yeah.

7:22 Um, do you think she was compensating for not having a male in the house?

7:28 Probably. Yeah, I think that would be the case. She felt like she had to step up and be both the father and the mother in the role.

7:35 Um, and maybe she just wanted to prove to everybody that she could raise these kids on her own, you know, right?

7:42 Cuz I mean, her marriage failed, so she had something to prove essentially.

7:45 That’s what she saw it as, which is a shame.

7:50 What are your first memories of the cult?

7:54 Uh, it’d be sitting in church. That’s the earliest one. I can remember being held by my mom and she was holding me. I must have been really little.

8:03 Um, I think she would have been pregnant with my younger sister then.

8:06 And I remember like just not being able to sit still and she kept trying to like get me to sit still and it was just like I remember just being so so bored.

8:14 Yeah. cuz services were not short. 2 hours was kind of the average.

8:18 Wow. That’s a long time for a little child. Yeah. For a little kid that was rough. Yeah.

8:25 How were children treated?

8:28 They were expected to be silent to not allowed to speak up. Um we oftent times went up to did like items in front of

8:35 the church and everybody like that, oh let’s do a kids item. And then all of the kids had to go up. You didn’t have a choice. And I hated it cuz I they used

8:44 to position me in front of the microphone and I used to get laughed at and I just found that so embarrassing and so shameful. Yeah.

8:50 Um you’re expected to do your schoolwork or um go to Sunday school, come in, sit still, and just be quiet. You weren’t

8:58 allowed to be just kids. After church was the best part because you could just run around and be kids, right?

9:05 Um in the in the home, you weren’t allowed to be fussy. You weren’t allowed to have emotions. You weren’t allowed to Yeah.

9:13 just be kids really, right? Yeah. So, there was this expectation that you would be seen and not heard and that. Yeah.

9:21 Yeah.

9:24 How did the group shape the way you saw yourself and other people in the outside world?

9:33 Uh, I actually ended up having a very self-critical view of myself. I hated myself. I hated what I looked like and I

9:40 thought that was being humble. Uh I thought that was part of the process. Um and I used to judge people a lot and

9:48 then I realized it was not something I wanted to do. That was part of the process of things fragmenting.

9:53 Um and I had like this sense of helplessness. I didn’t know how to do anything for myself because like God is to do everything for you. He’s the one

10:01 that’s meant to be like doing the things in your life. Um it also made me have a very narrow viewpoint that this was the only option

10:10 and everybody else was wrong and that affected me a lot later on.

10:15 Um it took a long time to sort of break that habit.

10:18 Um the narrow viewpoint was one of the strongest ones. Yeah.

10:23 The the people that the quotes the constant quotes from different parts of what they believed in. Um that was that was a big part in it.

10:31 Yeah. For sure. I don’t think we’ve um talked about what’s the name of your cult.

10:37 Um the message message believers or banimism. It comes from Yeah.

10:43 Uh William Brham who’s an American like they called him prophet. Yeah.

10:48 And they believe there was a prophet for every age after Jesus died and there was like one Paul after that Martinian Luther and then Brandham came right at the end.

10:58 Right. Um, and he started off his ministry with a healing thing and then evolved into deeper stuff. Um, but I

11:06 learned later on that that so much more than that. There was like the KKK were paying him to preach and

11:14 um, there was a lot more behind the scenes that was not accurate or true and that he talked about and in the message in the churches they

11:22 would explain it away. And it got to the point in the churches that they saw him as some kind of a god that he could do no wrong.

11:31 Um and that was one of the things that I had a big problem with. Right. Cuz I was like he’s just a human. Yes. And they just could not hear me. Yeah.

11:39 And being the fact that I was a woman and I was speaking about this this was not good. Right. Unacceptable behavior.

11:46 Yeah. I I have vague um recollections of him um of a a lot of other offshoot

11:55 Christian fundamentalist churches believing in his Yeah. teachings. Is that right?

12:02 There there’s I mean there’s a lot of churches all around New Zealand. Um and I mean even in Australia there’s a whole bunch of them.

12:10 Um I don’t know of other offshoot churches. I mean the whole core belief system of the message believers

12:17 is like Brandon and there is some versions of it. Yes.

12:23 That have been changed and they still classify themselves as message believers. Right.

12:28 So um my mom’s in one at the moment that’s like the original one’s like a

12:34 oneness. They believe that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Whereas this other offshoot believes they’re two separate people. So like that kind of offshoots

12:42 rather than Yeah, it’s like the variations you sort of see which is the whole thing’s messy. Yes, for sure.

12:50 Gets so complex. Yeah.

12:55 What happened if someone doubted or pushed back on the rules?

12:59 Um generally depended if they were adult or a child.

13:04 If they were a child, it was up to the parents to discipline them and pull them under and pull them back. Um, my sister was really bad at pushing against the

13:12 rules and she just got beat more. Um, right.

13:15 There was other people in the church that pushed back against the rules and their parents are a little bit more chilled out about it.

13:22 They said, “Well, you can make your own decisions when you turn 16.” Um, and they ended up ultimately leaving. Yeah.

13:28 The consequences of that is that you’d never see them again. It was like kind of a silent shunning. You just, you know, never talk to them. you’d kind of

13:36 ignore them and they were just people that oh, you don’t want to end up like them. They’d be used as an example, right?

13:41 Oh, they’re going to go to hell, you know? It was really based around like tribulation, like it’s the end times sort of thing. So, it was like scaremongering everywhere.

13:53 So, did they have a kind of doomsday philosophy?

13:57 Yeah, they did. Like, it was it’s the end times, you need to believe now.

14:01 Let’s watch out for the visions that the prophet spoke about. like that kind of feel.

14:05 So, you’re always feeling like anxious and stressed and worried like am I doing enough? Am I going to be enough? Like, and you never did. You

14:13 never felt enough, right?

14:15 Did they have a whole rapture kind of philosophy? Yeah, they did. Yeah.

14:20 They um three days before Jesus would come, the dead would rise and those that are his chosen would see the dead. Um

14:29 and then they would celebrate with them and then the rapture would happen three days later. And they said it was only going to be very scarce for you. So you had to be super careful.

14:38 Yeah.

14:39 And you had to really like believe in God and read your Bible and pray and just be really devout. Like it was Yeah. Yeah.

14:47 I always wonder um because my cult didn’t have a rapture or end days philosophy. I think there’s an extra

14:56 layer of trauma associated with those beliefs.

15:00 the anxiety and the stress like even like my sister when she left one of the first things she’s like you know

15:09 Jesus is not going to God’s not going to love me if I leave I’m like that’s not a loving person if you’re choosing something because it’s right for you and

15:17 it feel like it’s it it’s what’s appropriate for you. A person who loves you is not going to be like you’re a horrible person. They’re going to be

15:25 like it’s okay. I understand. And like Jesus was a rebel. Like he did things that

15:32 were so shocked and horrified all the religious people.

15:35 I was like we’re supposed to be modeling our lives after him, you know.

15:38 And that was like kind of the easiest way to help break it down. And it helped me by talking to her. Right.

15:43 To sort of break things down for myself, right? So it helped you deconstruct your experience by supporting her. Yeah.

15:51 Right.

15:52 Some of the stuff I didn’t even realize I was still holding on to.

15:55 Right. And it’s just like, oh, there’s another thing I have to go look at and work out and break down. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

16:06 When do you think the first cracks started to appear for you?

16:12 Um, they started pretty early. Um, seeing that little kid getting dragged out of church getting a hiding and then brought in to be paid for later because

16:20 his arm potentially dislocated during it was absolutely horrifying to me. Like it makes me it makes me want to

16:28 cry like now cuz it’s just he wasn’t even 18 months old. Like he was a baby baby, right?

16:33 Um that’s horrific. And then um seeing women in the church, how they got treated and when they were married, I

16:42 didn’t want to get married because I’m like, if this is how women are treated, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life cooking and cleaning cuz that’s what I’m already doing. Yeah.

16:49 Like my mom was spent most of the time locked itself in the bedroom and she’d only come out to punish us or tell us off or yell at us. Um

16:57 so us older girls did all the cooking and cleaning, right?

17:00 I’m like, this is just my life, but with added stress of raising children. I’m like, I don’t want that. Yeah. Too stressful.

17:07 I want I want a husband who’s a partner who’s going to do it with me. Yeah.

17:10 You know, he’s going to help me with the cleaning and the cooking.

17:13 Um, so that was like part of the fragmentation. Um, and then my sister asking me like,

17:20 “Would you smack your children?” It was one of those like I’ve never thought of that moment. And I went back and I looked and I was like, “Actually, no.” Like, yeah, it hurt me. Why would I want to pass that on?

17:30 Yeah. And then that broke open the whole why I don’t want to pass any of this on. Yeah.

17:35 And that just kind of blew the whole thing to pieces. Right.

17:39 So it’s just like little fragments that just started showing up all along the way. Right. You talk about fragmentation.

17:46 What What does that mean for you?

17:49 It’s like the cult being like a glass pane really and then like you get a crack and it starts another crack and then eventually

17:57 the whole thing just kind of shatters apart, right?

18:00 Um and then you realize it’s all nothing but just glass. It’s not actually anything you can rely on. I think that might have been part of the process why

18:08 I stayed for so long was because it’s the only consistent thing in my life and it was the thing that I relied on to make me feel safe. M

18:17 um it was terrifying when it started. It was terrifying because I was like everything I’ve been taught is a lie.

18:26 Like what do I do now? What is real?

18:28 What’s not? I’ve been lied to my whole life. Like Yeah. Oh my gosh. What do I do?

18:32 Yeah. That must have been so um terrifying.

18:36 It was just devastating like world ending kind of. But in a good way like Yeah. Yeah.

18:40 Cuz once you deconstruct all that, you can restart and you actually have a more stable sort of world view and foundation

18:48 for your life, right? Yeah.

18:52 Did you try to silence those kind of questionings or the fragments? Try and glue it all back together.

18:59 For a long time, I made excuses for it.

19:01 And that’s probably why I was in and out of the church for most of my 20s because I was trying to pretend that what I was seeing wasn’t real. um that the only real thing was

19:10 the church and the message. Um and then I just couldn’t anymore. Just couldn’t piece it together because it

19:18 was destroying me and my core beliefs and who I was as a person and yeah, it just got to the point I just I couldn’t hold it together. So, right. Yeah, that makes sense.

19:30 What was the moment, event or realization that made you understand that you couldn’t keep living inside

19:38 that faith or that world, their treatment of people who were different, right?

19:46 Their treatment of people that chose to speak up and say, “Hey, this is wrong.” They they weren’t willing to hear it.

19:52 They weren’t willing to try and change or be different. And they couldn’t accept people who dress differently.

19:58 Right? If you felt that dresses weren’t for you, then you didn’t understand what the message was about and you had to leave, you know,

20:05 they didn’t accept people who were different. And I was different. Very different, right?

20:10 So, I was like a sore thumb in a crowd of thumbs, right? You know. Yeah.

20:14 So, it was understanding that I don’t think I could ever go back from that point.

20:19 And then once I married my husband, it was a definite, “That’s never going to happen again,” right?

20:23 And I had the security and the safety with him, right? He wasn’t in the church. No. Right.

20:29 Um, he was part of the process that helped me completely stay out because he had that safety and security and he

20:37 encouraged me to just be me, right?

20:39 Be more of me. And I’d never had anyone who just loved me for me. It was like a, “Uh, how do I deal with this?” moment. And

20:46 then like, “Oh my gosh, there’s a different side to life.”

20:51 Yeah. It’s like, “I can be happy outside of this.” Yeah.

20:54 But I also had to go through that whole process of learning to love myself and accept who I was before I even got to him because I couldn’t accept love from

21:03 anyone because I didn’t think I was worth it.

21:06 Right. So that whole cult background was what caused a lot of that.

21:12 So you managed to work through some of that self-hatred stuff before you met your husband? Yeah. A lot of it. Yeah.

21:19 Um, yeah. He encouraged me to do so much. Yeah.

21:24 What was the most difficult thing about leaving for you?

21:28 Accepting that my family… I was never going to get a mother. I was never going to get a father. I was going to have to parent myself. Right.

21:36 That was the hardest realization because that’s all I had wanted growing up was a mom, was someone who would be there for me, who would just love me for me and

21:44 just be a parent, you know, showing up for your kid.

21:49 And that was the real hard bit. I was like, “I’m never going to get that.” Right.

22:00 How did you, um, start to deconstruct what had happened to you?

22:08 Me and my sister sat down. This is fairly new. We had someone bring it up in our group chat about how Branham was

22:16 funded by the KKK and we’re like, “Okay, well, we need to sit down and look at this.” But we spent a few months just avoiding the topic because we just

22:23 weren’t ready. Um, and then one day I said, “You know what?

22:26 Maybe we should just sit down and just have a real deep dive into Google and see what Google says.” Um, let’s try and do as much evidence-based research as we can and

22:34 just try and break it down. And we started doing that and we just started deconstructing what we learned and what we knew and realized a lot of it is basically just coercion and manipulation.

22:48 And when we had a label for it, that started making things easier, right? TikTok was an amazing resource for us because I started on

22:57 there and I started seeing therapy and therapists talking about different things, what toxic behavior looked like, what

23:04 narcissism looks like, what coercion, what control looks like.

23:09 Um, and then I started going, “This is my family. This is the church I grew up in.” And I went, “Oh, I’m in trouble.”

23:16 Yeah.

23:17 So then I went, “Something needs to change.”

23:21 And we had to deconstruct it to understand what it looked like so we could stay away from that. We could see the red flags. Yeah.

23:29 Took me so long to see red flags. Yeah. It can be a lengthy process.

23:35 It’s tedious. And sometimes I’m still like, “Ah, still didn’t see that one.”

23:40 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At least now you’re recognizing that you missed one.

23:44 Yeah. And I’m like, “Okay, now I can mentally leave a little marker there. Like, that’s a red flag. I noticed that.” Yeah. Yeah.

23:53 Yeah. I think that’s such a huge part of recovery is that kind of, um, I don’t know if it’s as kind of simple as this, but

24:02 there seems to be a phase in everyone’s recovery where you spend a solid amount of time deconstructing what happened. Yeah.

24:10 Yeah.

24:10 There’s just so much like, “Okay, what is this based off? Is it actually true? Is it actually important?” Um, like I still have a belief that there is

24:19 a God out there, that Jesus was probably real, but a lot of it’s been changed by history, by the telling, by everything.

24:26 So we don’t actually know what is 100% accurate or not. Yeah.

24:29 Like, I don’t actually know, and I’m actually okay with that. Yeah.

24:34 I heard a woman on TikTok. She was talking to her child and they said, “What happens when we die?” And she says, “Well, I don’t actually know, but I know

24:42 before we were born, we weren’t awake, you know, and it was peaceful and was nice. And I’d like to think that when we die, it’s kind of like that. It’s

24:50 just like resting, and it’s peaceful and it’s calm.” Yeah.

24:54 And I just thought, “I’ve never heard anyone put it like that.” Yeah. Yeah. And I’m just… I kind of like that.

24:59 Like it’s not something I’ve ever thought of. And I’m just like, I’ve always thought that, you know, if you didn’t believe in God in their format you were going to hell, and hell was just

25:06 forever and your, you know, eternal burning, whatever. For me, I was living in that. Like, my own mind was hell. So, like, for me, hell would have

25:15 been just a bit more of what I was living in. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

25:19 So yeah, the fact that there is a possibility of peace is kind of like, “Oh, that’s nice.”

25:25 Yeah. And I love the way you appreciated just, um, that simple concept. Like often

25:33 cults and religions can make these things so complex.

25:38 And, um, I’ve often been asked, “What do you believe in now?” And I’m like, “I just believe in the religion of being a

25:47 good person.” Yeah, that’s it. Simple.

25:50 You care about people, so you want to make sure that you look after them, that you do your best to be a good person yourself because

25:58 what you put out in the world comes back to you. So yeah, you treat someone badly, they’re probably going to treat you badly. So do you actually want that? No. Yeah. Exactly.

26:05 It’s like basic humanity. Yeah.

26:11 When did you realize that leaving was only part of it and that you also had to deconstruct what happened?

26:20 I mean, when I first left, I kind of knew a little bit subconsciously, but it took me years to figure out how to deconstruct it.

26:27 And I really wanted my sister to come with me because I just didn’t have anybody. Like, my older sister was just… she was never going to leave.

26:35 She never had that mindset. Yeah.

26:36 Whereas my younger sister always had a bit of a rebel in her. So there was always going to be an element of maybe she would leave, but maybe not. And I mean, she got married. She brought her husband

26:45 into the church. Um, they’re divorced now, which is great. She’s much happier without him.

26:51 Um, but there was always an element of, “Would she hear me?” And that was the hardest bit. And she got to a point

26:59 where we were able to sit down one day and have a really good discussion. And I was like, “I might actually be able to get her to understand where I’m coming from.” Yeah.

27:07 Um, and then I started realizing there’s more to deconstruct than what I realized. Like, yes, I knew that I had to

27:15 deconstruct it and had to try and figure out why this was such a big part of my life and why it was important. Um, but then there was more. It was like the actual

27:23 rules, regulations, and elements of the whole thing. It’s like, “Oh man.” Yeah. So it’s a whole process.

27:31 Yeah, absolutely.

27:33 What beliefs or reflexes were the hardest to unlearn?

27:41 The self-judgment.

27:41 Yeah. The self-criticism, hatred, um, the unexpected manipulation that you

27:50 pick up from the church, from the family.

27:54 Um, there’s specific phrases and words that are used as manipulation. The helplessness was really hard to get rid of.

28:02 I didn’t know how to do things for myself. I didn’t know how to take initiative to change my own life, to actually go out there and act on it.

28:09 Like, I knew the words. I knew how to say things, because I just didn’t know how to do it. Yeah. Like, that was one of the hardest things.

28:14 And once I figured that one out, I was like, “Oh, okay. Now this is easy.” Yeah. Yeah. It was like so many little hard things.

28:22 The subconscious little bits that kept coming up. The trauma was the hard bit to deal with, too. Yeah.

28:27 Um, how did that impact on you?

28:32 Quite a lot. Like, I think I’ve spent most of my 20s deconstructing, working on myself. A lot of people are just enjoying their 20s, you know.

28:40 Yeah. And I’ve spent the whole time working on fixing this mess, learning how to protect myself because I was never protected in the church

28:48 when I should have been. Even I think most churches nowadays try to protect people. Yeah.

28:54 Um, I was sexually assaulted when I was a little kid by my grandfather. And my mom’s like, “Oh, what do you want me

29:02 to do about it?” I’m like, “I don’t know. You’re the parent. You’re supposed to know.” Oh.

29:06 Um, she’s like, “Oh, I guess we cannot see him anymore, but that means I don’t get to see my dad.” And I’m like, “Uh, okay.

29:14 Well, then you’re allowed to see him, I guess.” Why am I making the rules? I’m like a 12-year-old.

29:19 Yeah. Oh, that’s horrific. I’m so sorry you had to go through that.

29:24 It’s just… Yeah, it’s taken me so long to get to the point where I was able to go to the police about it. And I think that should have been done right off the bat. But yeah, straight away.

29:33 It was all swept under the rug. Everyone was just like, “Oh, shh, we don’t talk about it. You know, you’re going to upset her.” I’m like, “I want things to go back to normal, but I want things to be fixed normal.” And I didn’t know what that looked like.

29:42 Now, as an adult, I’m like, “I know how to do that.” So, if it ever comes up for me again, I know the right move. I hope it never does, you know.

29:51 Yeah. Yeah.

29:52 And just like the whole being sexually assaulted as a child, with the cult on top of that, it just basically created a cycle of abuse from relationship to relationship. Mm-hmm.

30:03 Um, even the beatings, they’re all part of the whole mental thing. I I like I need to be punished was one of the weirdest things I had to had to break through. It was whenever I did something wrong, I was like, I need someone to give me a hiding because I don’t believe I’m I’m got enough of a punishment to deserve it. And that was just like a looking back it like what? That makes no sense.

30:25 But it it does. When you’re used to being hurt and being told that this is love, you start looking for that and then you end up in relationships where you’re going to get hurt and maybe borderline almost killed. Yeah. Because the the people are dangerous.

30:39 Exactly. And I I I like what you said too about um feeling the need to be punished because often in those environments once you’re punished you’re free of what you did wrong.

30:48 Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And and and if you don’t get punished, then it’s just hanging over you. Like this karmic kind of debt.

30:59 You’re just waiting for it to come back and get you. Like for me, when we got in trouble as kids, if mom couldn’t figure out who it was,

31:07 um we’d be sitting there waiting.

31:10 And for me, the waiting was worse than the actual punishment. So I’d be like, “Oh, it was me.” Even if it wasn’t, right?

31:14 And I’ll take the punishment because I just wanted it over and done with. I don’t want to sit there sweating for hours. Yeah.

31:20 Like it was it was horrible. It’s a horrible way to live. And I think the other thing that you raise is that

31:31 you’re unable to say no or protect yourself in those environments because you’re so subservient. Yeah. You are not allowed to say no.

31:39 Don’t talk back to me was the response you get.

31:42 Um and you were like like how am I supposed to you asking me for a response and I give you a response and you say don’t talk back to me. So I’m like this is like a horrible cycle.

31:51 like how am I supposed to do what you want but also give you the response you want? Yeah.

31:56 And like I I was always questioning stuff and that did not go down well. I want to know why.

32:01 I had to know why for for like my autism I have to know why. Yeah. Um that did not go down well at all.

32:07 Yeah. Talking back to me, right? Go sit on the naughty chair. I’m going to give you a hiding. And it’s like oh cool another one. Yeah. For what? Yeah.

32:15 I just got so used to it. Yeah.

32:18 So, what did you what was helpful or what techniques did you learn for protecting yourself?

32:28 Um, mine are really sort of simple. It’s realizing that there is law out there that protects people.

32:36 Um, for me, I finally got up the guts and I went to the police station, reported the people that have hurt me because that’s a form of protection. I know that I can also get protection orders against people if they continue coming to my place or harassing me or contacting me

32:51 if I don’t wish it. Like I’m no contact with any of my family besides my sister and my brother, right? Which aren’t in the cult.

32:58 Um but I also know now that I can also use social media to protect myself too.

33:02 Like I can block them. Um but also I have a right to say no and they can just leave me alone and if they don’t I can call the police and get back up, you know.

33:12 Yeah. Yeah. And people around me I know will step in cuz I’ve seen I’ve done it myself. Other people when they’re sort of like freaking out or having issues, I’m like it’s okay. You don’t have to like I’m here. If you need something, I’ll be here to support you, you know? Yeah.

33:23 And I didn’t realize how much of a friendly place that this world actually is. Like people actually genuinely want to help and and how much resources are available. Like I wish I’d known so many more of these resources.

33:36 Wow. Yeah. That’s because they would have helped me move out of there so much faster.

33:39 Right. Yeah. I guess that the whole isolation from mainstream society cuts you off from any knowledge of how to help yourself. And we were told that nobody was safe. Like you can’t trust anybody. It’s just your family and the church.

33:58 And when you can’t trust your family and you know you can’t trust your family and the church doesn’t seem that trustworthy either, you’re kind of like, um, where

34:06 do I go? M I mean I was homeschooled too so even less like I didn’t have any school friends or anything.

34:14 Yeah. So extremely sheltered. Yep. Yeah.

34:17 And naive. I I had no idea about any of the things that you’re supposed to look out for. Yeah.

34:23 To protect yourself. Now I know I can do that. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

34:30 What helped you start building a life that felt like your own?

34:38 That’s a good question. Um, I started working towards what was important to me, what felt safe.

34:47 Um, for me, having a house, my own house that no one could take away from me, that couldn’t, you know, didn’t turn up to do house inspections, you know, every 3 months. I had that. It felt like my childhood all over again, right?

34:58 Because that’s what my mom would do, inspections, room inspections, you know, if it wasn’t clean, you were in trouble.

35:04 Yeah. and someone with ADHD who struggles with overwhelm so easily, it was a nightmare.

35:09 Um, having my own home, having someone who cared for me, loved me for just me.

35:15 Um, having a job that was flexible, that helped me like not get stuck in the whole 9 to5 was a big thing.

35:25 Um, my own space, like all of these little things, just creating like a little pocket of safety and security for myself was like such a big deal for me. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s huge especially if you come out very traumatized is um where is your

35:42 safety in the outside world and creating that sense of safety or like a space where you can feel that.

35:50 Yeah.

35:51 For me living in the country feels safe, you know. Yeah.

35:55 So like there’s not many people. I’m not going to get door knocked and hey, do you want to buy this thing? Cuz that that’s just please go away. Scary.

36:02 Yeah. Strangers are scary still.

36:04 Right. So, you still find that challenging? Yeah. That’s one of the big things.

36:09 Speaking up and strangers, right?

36:12 I mean, even seeing people from the cult is still terrifying to me. Yeah.

36:16 Seeing one in public and I just panic. I just don’t know what to do. Right.

36:20 The therapist is helping me through that, which is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

36:27 What helped you learn to trust yourself again?

36:32 therapy was a big part in it, right?

36:34 Learning that what I felt was real. Um, I shoved a lot of my emotions down, buried them. And and I’d wonder why I’d have these massive explosive meltdowns. Like I’d never do them anyone else around. I’d just lose it at home. Completely lose it. Yeah.

36:49 Um, and did some like mindfulness clinics and stuff. And learning how to feel emotions was a big big thing. Um,

36:59 and embracing the fact that the way I saw saw the world was that was different was actually kind of a good thing. Yeah.

37:05 Like all these little things, just the therapy, the combination of that and doing anti-depressants for a little while to just help push the trauma down so I can work through it.

37:14 Yeah.

37:15 Like all of these little things. There’s so many little things that just helped gain my sense of self back.

37:20 Yeah. And like I’m so happy in myself like physically and emotionally like for the first time around my life. I feel like I’m finally me. I’m allowed to be me and it’s actually completely okay.

37:32 But there’s no one telling me how to live my life. And if they do, I’m like door’s that way, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Out you go.

37:39 Yeah. I don’t want you in my life. If you’re going to tell me how to live it, it’s mine. Yeah. Yeah.

37:43 And that like having that control and that claim over your own life is huge. It’s absolutely huge.

37:48 It’s massive, isn’t it? when you when you come from a childhood where you could you didn’t have a single choice over anything anything at all.

37:56 So you developed um a real sense of yourself and agency and safety and connection it sounds like. Yeah.

38:03 Yeah. And therapy sounds like a big part of that and mindfulness.

38:08 It has helped a lot like I was I was already in the right direction. I just needed examples on how to action things and how to how to do it physically.

38:18 Yeah. And when once I got that, I’m like, “Okay, right.” And even my therapist has said, she’s like, “Wow, in the last year, you’ve just gone from like zero to 100.” She’s like, “You’ve just you were ready for that take off.

38:27 You just need a little bit of push behind you.” And that was it. Yeah.

38:30 Which is awesome. Like it makes me feel good. Like I’m doing so well.

38:34 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s happening. It’s happening.

38:41 Were there everyday things that became part of your recovery like movement, rest, chosen family, creativity, or being in nature?

38:53 Started off with the small things like I started sitting outside in the mornings just feeling the sun on my face with the hot chocolate just just being in the moment.

39:02 Yeah. Um and then it evolved to I really struggled with resting because you know when when you grow up in a in a household you’re doing all the jobs sitting down if you sat for a moment and mom walked in what are you doing you know there’s stuff you need to do so like sitting down resting was really hard and then

39:19 someone with a chronic illness because I’ve got Ellis Dan loss as well so like for me joint pain is everyday occurrence. Yeah.

39:26 Allowing myself to rest and realize I’m not actually doing nothing. I’m actually doing what my body needs which is rest.

39:31 That was a huge part. Um, knowing how important sleep was as well, started working on that. But when someone when you had no control over when you went to bed, having that time before bed, like you just end up staying up so late because you’re like, I don’t want to go to bed because it feels like a punishment, you know?

39:48 Yeah.

39:49 So, like changing the mindset is like this is not a pun, this is not a punishment. My body needs rest. I deserve to go to sleep.

39:56 Like changing that whole way you view it has changed everything. like eating good food not because I have to eat good food and junk food is like the reward. The good food is the reward. The junk food’s just like a it’s a little bit of nice stuff on the side but ultimately you feel sick after a while so it doesn’t actually help you.

40:15 Um but yeah, the little things like sitting outside and literally stopping to smell the flowers. If you see something pretty and you’re like, “Wow, that’s pretty.” Instead of going,

40:23 “That’s nice.” And keep walking, you go, “Let’s just actually have a look at this for a minute.” you know, genuinely taking the time to just look at something and just be there.

40:32 Like that has been a huge part of it.

40:34 Um, resting, like telling myself it’s completely okay to rest.

40:38 Um, having the freedom to make choices and if you can’t make choices, come back and make the choice. Yeah.

40:45 Like when I was a kid, I wasn’t allowed to choose ice creams. I was like, “You need to pick one now.” And like the pressure was on and I just couldn’t do it. I just panic and I’m like, “Okay,

40:52 you go without.” Now I’m like, you know, I can’t decide between the two, so I’m going to get both. Yeah. Or sometimes I’m gonna choose this one.

40:59 I’m like, actually, it’s that one I wanted. So then I know. Yeah.

41:02 You know, like having the option to go, I don’t really have to make a choice like that anymore. It’s it’s a big thing. It takes a lot of the pressure off.

41:10 Yeah. That’s great.

41:12 If it’s trying new foods as well, like my husband’s great. Like he’ll be like, “Do you want to try a bite of mine?” And for me, like if I buy it for myself and I don’t like it, it feels such a waste.

41:21 Yeah. Yeah.

41:21 So, like if I try a bite of his, he’s already eating it, so it’s no loss. And I know next time that I like that food. Yeah.

41:28 Which has helped so much with my anxiety around eating as well, right?

41:31 Cuz like we used to sit for hours at the kitchen table and get hiding so we didn’t eat food and Right.

41:38 I honestly some of the stuff that my mom made I’d rather stuff, right?

41:42 And it was like that. I would have I would have starved.

41:44 Um Wow. I think I probably did in some parts.

41:48 Yeah. I was very very thin as a teenager because my mom was a terrible cook. Oh, that’s horrendous.

41:57 And I’m the complete opposite.

41:58 And that’s when you need really good nourishment, too. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So important.

42:07 Were there fears that stayed in your system even after you no longer believe the teachings?

42:15 The uh the end of the world one. That one took me quite a while to get over. Yeah.

42:23 Um the fear that everything’s going to fall to pieces and that’s it, you know.

42:30 Um I mean, the world’s been going for how many hundreds of thousands of years anyway?

42:35 One of one of my life is just not going to make much of a difference really. Um yeah. And if anything’s going to happen, it’s going to happen so slowly that

42:43 well, I’m probably not going to be around for it anyway. So, and if something big and catastrophic happens, I hope I’m wiped out fast. So,

42:51 it’s like I’ll just enjoy my life in the meantime, you know, just let it be a painless end.

42:57 That was that was a really hard one. I used to get hooked into all the like news disaster things. Everything’s falling to pieces. And then I got to the

43:04 point it was actually affecting my mental health. So, I stopped looking at the news. I just can’t do it anymore because I’m just like it’s too easy to get hooked into that fear.

43:13 Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not even mine to begin with. It’s theirs. Yeah. Yeah.

43:19 What has become part of your ongoing healing practice now?

43:26 Um self-reflection has been a really good one. Right.

43:29 Just processing through something and then um recognizing how I feel in my body about it. Um, if I’m struggling to make a decision, that’s one of the easiest

43:37 ways to make a decision, right?

43:39 Um, someone’s like, “Oh, you want to go do this thing?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” They look at my roster and look at my my calendar. I’m just like, “I’ve got space.” And I’m like, “The

43:48 anxietyy’s crawling.” I’m like, “No, I think I’ve got too much on this week.” Yeah.

43:51 I’m like, or the other thing is I’m allowed to say, “Let me think about it.” Like small little things just allowing to say no to stuff is great.

43:59 Yeah. little things, just lots of little bits and pieces that have helped in the recovery. It’s just so many. I can’t think of them all at once.

44:07 Yeah, it’s a lot, isn’t it? But yeah, I like what you said about um you know, when you need to make a decision, you

44:15 have options around making those decisions and it doesn’t have to be instant. Um but also paying attention to your interior, your feelings around it.

44:28 Yeah, generally your body gives you a really good clue as to where you want to or not. Like mentally I’m like I’m too like too much going on. I don’t know. I don’t

44:35 know. But if I’m feeling anxious about I’m like okay, we need to slow down. So let’s just let’s just ask for space. And then if we go like my I’m I’m giving excuses to the person but I’m not actually saying no.

44:46 Yeah.

44:46 I’m like I call that a soft no. If they start making excuses that sound like no, then it’s probably a no. Yeah.

44:52 I taught my sister that one, too, cuz I was like that’s a great tip. I’m going to tell her cuz this is I wish I learned this earlier. Yeah, that really works.

44:59 You hear it from people, too. Like you hear people talking, they’re like, “I’m not sure. I’ve got things on Thursday.

45:04 Um, I don’t know. I might get time for that.” And you like you can hear they’re not really interested.

45:09 It’s it’s like that whole thing. Unless it’s an enthusiastic yes, then it’s probably a no. Yeah. Yeah. Consent has been a huge huge deal. That’s for sure.

45:17 Right. Learning about consent. That was a that was another big thing that was wow big part in how I did things, right? Yeah.

45:26 Recognizing what it looks like was a big deal, too. It is. Yeah.

45:31 Um, we have a set of questions that we ask everybody at the end of the podcast.

45:38 So, um, I guess we’re kind of moving on to there. If you could speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

45:48 It’s going to be okay. Like, yeah, you’re going to make it through and you’re going to love it.

45:53 This is actually It’s going to be a tough journey. It’s going to be really hard.

45:57 But you’re going to come out the other side and you’re not going to believe how incredible it is and how peaceful your life is, right?

46:04 All that drama, all of that fear that you’re afraid of right now, it’s not going to be there anymore, right?

46:09 And it’s going to be such an amazing feeling. Yeah, that’s a great message of hope.

46:15 It’s the peace is the bit. Oh, I’m such a cool thing to find.

46:19 Isn’t it so awesome? I think it’s like the release of um the

46:27 cult think in your head controlling everything and the fear.

46:32 Yeah. The drama that other people put on me and I thought it was my responsibility like fix it.

46:38 Realizing I didn’t have to have that in my life. I can get rid of that. That was like a Oh man, that creates a whole lot of space and that space is quiet and it’s nice.

46:48 Yeah. Yeah.

46:51 If you had to name one thing that supported you the most, what would that be? Chosen family. Yeah.

46:59 They’ve been amazing. They’ve just love me for me and they celebrate me, right? And that has helped me be me

47:06 faster and better and just grow in sort of personality and character so much.

47:13 All that’s been kept down from when I was a child stuff down there that’s just kind of exploded. Yeah.

47:18 And it’s helped me be like, “Ah, I’m actually okay being me.” Yeah. How did you find your chosen family?

47:24 In all kinds of weird places. I mean, my sister, my husband, I found him on Tinder.

47:29 Ah, fabulous. used the red flags logic, complete logic to find them and then end up being an amazing person.

47:36 Um, and then my friends, uh, my friend Jess, she’s an amazing person. I found her at a florestry course that I did.

47:44 She’s such a kind person, huge heart.

47:47 Uh, and then her friend Ella I met and we became friends. So, it’s like a small little group of people that we just, you know, we sort of collaborate, meet

47:55 up, and we’re always hanging out, wanting to do stuff together. It’s awesome. Oh, that sounds wild. feel so lucky. Yeah.

48:04 What would you like to What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

48:12 They’re probably terrified, absolutely shattered mentally, physically, emotionally,

48:19 and they don’t know what is up and what’s down.

48:22 It’s like they’ve been put in a washing machine and spit out. Like they just they’re completely bewildered.

48:28 Yeah. So time is a big factor and just encouraging them to make choices for them and supporting them in those choices is huge.

48:37 Yeah.

48:38 Like even if they make choices that are completely like, “Oh gosh, are you going to be okay?” Supporting them through that process is absolutely huge.

48:46 Yeah.

48:47 I if I if I had that, I think I would have done the process a bit faster. Yeah.

48:51 And there’s a lot of things I think would have made a difference, but did it on my own and now I can help others. Oh, that’s wonderful.

48:59 Yeah.

49:00 I guess on behalf of Unspun, um I’d love to say just it’s been awesome to hear your story and

49:09 um about your recovery and where you’ve been heading and Yeah, it’s fabulous to have you here. Thank you.

49:17 Yeah. And I think you know your story is one that can help other people as well.

49:24 Like hearing other people’s journeys such a crucial part of recovery I feel. Yeah.

49:29 And that’s I guess why this podcast is here because recovery stories can make such a difference for people.

49:37 Yeah. Yeah.

49:38 It’s never linear either. It’s always like mine. Back and forth back and forth until you figure out Yeah.

49:44 what’s right for you and Yeah. Exactly. Thank you so much.

49:50 And now we wrap up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you to Grace. I’m sure your story will inspire and give

49:57 hope to many people. Thank you for spending this time with us. We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re

50:05 grateful you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to

50:12 feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to.

50:20 You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their hearing

50:27 healing work. Thank Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.

0:06 Hi and welcome to Unspun. Today we have a very special guest, Tristan Phipps, a cult survivor and advocate for cult survivors in the advocacy space.

0:15 Tristan was born and raised in a high-control religious group known as the 2×2 church.

0:24 After being out for more than 20 years, he has taken a new path in recovery through advocacy.

0:32 Over the past two years he has been raising awareness around religious trauma, indoctrination, coercive control, high-control groups, and men’s mental health.

0:41 His advocacy began when abuse within the 2×2 church entered public news cycles.

0:49 At the time, many communities had no idea the group existed and few were publicly naming it.

0:57 What started in online support groups grew into media appearances, podcasts, and ongoing social media work.

1:03 Outside of advocacy, he finds healing in music, DJing, long-distance trail running, and creating art.

1:10 From September, he will also become a dad and welcome a new arrival into his family.

1:17 Congratulations, Tristan.

1:23 Thanks, bro. Good to see you again.

1:25 We’ve connected a few times and shared thoughts on different things.

1:32 Today we want to focus on the recovery side of things and go deeper into that.

1:39 So we’ll spend less time on where you came from and more on your experience of recovery.

1:46 Can you give us a brief overview of the group you were part of?

1:59 The 2×2 church is a high-control religious group, sometimes described as a cult by former members.

2:06 I was born and raised fifth generation into it.

2:13 It’s often called the “church with no name,” a home-based fundamentalist group.

2:20 Preachers go out two by two, without possessions, staying in members’ homes.

2:29 Meetings happen in homes or community spaces rather than church buildings.

2:38 They stay in a congregation for a few weeks before moving on.

2:46 The organisation is funded by members and not formally registered as a charity or entity.

3:02 There is no official registered structure, despite being highly organised in practice.

3:09 The “2×2” name comes from outsiders and the media.

3:16 It operates as a loosely defined but structured belief system with clear internal rules.

3:32 It presents as a simple community of believers but has a strong internal hierarchy.

3:41 That’s interesting, because other groups often register as charities for funding and structure.

3:54 Your group is similar to others I’ve seen in terms of avoiding formal registration.

4:02 In my own experience with another group, that dynamic played out differently but similarly.

4:11 During COVID some groups moved toward charity registration, but not all.

4:28 So within your group, who actually holds the power?

4:48 There is a hierarchy, with workers or preachers at the top.

4:55 They are seen as the ones who interpret the word of God.

5:04 Their message is central, and members attend meetings frequently to hear it.

5:12 Overseers sit above regional structures, including countries or regions.

5:26 Overseers and head workers are always male.

5:34 Female and junior workers exist but hold less authority.

5:42 Local elders manage meetings within homes.

5:50 The structure is male dominated, with no female overseers historically.

6:00 So it’s a clearly patriarchal setup.

6:07 What are your earliest memories of anything that felt different growing up in it?

6:16 It’s hard to pinpoint because you normalize it when you’re born into it.

6:32 Some memories are distant or blurred because you block things out.

6:47 As a child, you don’t realise you’re part of something unusual.

6:59 Your experience depends on how strictly your family follows the rules.

7:08 Every family interprets the system slightly differently.

7:23 In my case it was relatively mild or progressive compared to others.

7:40 Some things we did weren’t strictly allowed, so it felt both normal and not normal.

7:48 Sunday meetings twice a week made it different from other kids’ lives.

8:04 There was also a belief we were chosen and had a direct path to heaven.

8:19 At the same time, I still went to school and mixed with other kids.

8:35 So you were “in the world but not of the world.”

8:43 As a child you don’t see the messaging clearly at first.

8:54 When did the first cracks start to appear for you?

9:12 Looking back, I was never fully invested in it.

9:39 I never really felt it was true or that God was speaking to me.

9:45 I was more just going through the motions.

9:59 There wasn’t a single moment it broke — it was always partial.

10:15 Fear sat in the background that kept you participating.

10:26 So physically in, mentally not fully in.

10:41 Was that fear mainly about going to hell?

10:49 Yes — the belief you were in the only chosen group with access to heaven.

10:55 As a child, that kind of idea is very powerful and frightening.

11:03 Even when I wasn’t fully invested, there was still a strong underlying fear of missing out or something terrible happening if I left.

11:11 That fear included spiritual consequences as well as fear of social and family backlash.

11:16 In high-control groups like this, leaving can come with significant consequences, including shunning or emotional cutoff.

11:27 There are cases of separation, but often it’s also the language and treatment within families that creates distance.

11:48 It creates a constant push and pull between loyalty, fear, and uncertainty.

11:51 The unknown is a major factor—you’re constantly weighing what happens if you step away.

12:00 Indoctrination can be strong enough that you feel stuck, even when part of you wants out.

12:08 You weren’t fully invested, but the system was still doing its job in keeping you inside.

12:18 How did you manage your doubts at that stage?

12:33 I would often silence them because I didn’t feel I had enough certainty to act on them.

12:41 Fear of consequences and fear of losing family played a big role in suppressing questions.

12:57 But as you get older, those questions naturally start to build and demand attention.

13:07 Eventually you reach a point where you start taking control of your own decisions.

13:22 I began to realise the situation wasn’t healthy, even if I couldn’t fully explain it at first.

13:38 It felt like being stuck in a confusing in-between state—lost, uncertain, and conflicted.

13:53 That sense of “no man’s land” is a good way to describe it.

14:02 Eventually you start asking what you actually want for your own life.

14:12 There were parts of it I had pushed away, but also a growing sense of dissatisfaction.

14:23 I wasn’t happy, and I was essentially living life for other people.

14:32 There had to be more than a life based purely on rules and expectations.

15:11 After leaving, what beliefs or behaviours were hardest to unlearn?

15:18 It wasn’t religious belief so much as behavioural conditioning.

15:25 People-pleasing, overthinking, and difficulty making independent decisions were the hardest to break.

15:33 I also struggled with constant self-doubt and seeking external approval.

15:43 These patterns are very common among people leaving similar environments.

15:50 In groups like this, saying no is rarely encouraged or even possible.

15:58 Life becomes centred around service and compliance.

16:07 You’re expected to prioritise the group over your own needs.

16:17 That creates deep difficulty in forming personal boundaries.

16:24 Even simple decisions outside the group can feel unsafe or uncertain.

16:33 There’s often fear that choosing differently means choosing wrongly.

16:41 Boundaries were essentially absent, which made adjustment difficult later.

16:50 I had no real sense of personal boundaries at the time.

16:59 When did you start recognising this as a system rather than just personal struggle?

17:16 At first, it was very internal—focused on my own unraveling and recovery.

17:23 That process involved going to difficult places emotionally and getting professional help.

17:31 There was also a period of exploration and trying to rebuild a normal life.

17:40 I didn’t experience a sudden break—more a gradual transition into normality.

17:48 I had already experienced parts of normal life before leaving fully.

17:57 So in some ways, the transition into “normal life” felt quite seamless.

18:04 The deeper deconstruction came later.

18:11 I needed time to step away before revisiting everything in detail.

18:18 I also used distraction and coping mechanisms during that time.

18:21 Alcohol was one of the ways I coped, not excessively, but as numbing.

18:30 It helped in the short term, but it wasn’t a long-term solution.

18:43 Eventually, I had to go back and unpack everything properly.

18:51 That meant examining behaviours, conditioning, and learned responses.

19:10 Why was I a people-pleaser? Where did these patterns come from?

19:25 It required deconstructing the system that shaped me.

19:37 Did you experience depression after leaving?

19:47 Yes, and at first I didn’t understand what I was experiencing.

19:55 Getting professional help made it clearer and more manageable.

20:02 In some cases, medication helped stabilise things temporarily.

20:08 Counselling and therapy provided tools for navigating it.

20:16 It helped me understand what I was going through and how to move through it.

20:25 There was a period where I was unwell without realising it.

20:32 I had a persistent sense of sadness that I couldn’t explain at the time.

20:41 Was that what led you to seek help?

20:45 My marriage ended not long after leaving, which added another major transition.

20:52 I had married someone within the group, which is quite common.

21:03 That separation, along with leaving the group, made it a major life reset.

21:12 It was a combination of factors that pushed everything into a rebuilding phase.

21:14 And did you seek help from a psychologist privately yourself or go through your GP?

21:23 A mixture of both—through my GP initially, and then I was able to see someone privately as well.

21:29 That was a big step. It was quite a journey and quite scary at first, talking about things that in groups like the 2x2s you’re told are spiritual issues rather than mental health ones.

21:39 In those environments, if you’re struggling, you’re told your spirit isn’t right, or you’re not praying enough, or reading enough.

21:46 Those conversations just don’t really happen, especially for men.

21:50 There’s this expectation that you’re tough, strong, and you push through—something that exists in wider society too, but is very pronounced in those communities.

21:58 So getting help outside of the system you’re “meant” to get help from is a big shift.

22:07 But I didn’t feel shame about it or anything like that.

22:12 It actually became necessary, because I reached a point where I didn’t want to be alive anymore.

22:20 That was a frightening realisation, and it should be frightening.

22:24 That fear was what made me think, okay—I need to do something about this.

22:32 So you had thoughts of suicide?

22:33 Absolutely. Yeah.

22:38 Even though I had good people around me, I was still feeling that way.

22:44 Life wasn’t terrible on the surface—I had friends, family connections, and things were okay in many ways.

22:49 I left the group, I still had relationships, and I wasn’t experiencing extreme shunning like others do.

23:00 But despite all that, I still felt that way internally, which was confusing.

23:07 Good things were happening, but I still didn’t feel okay.

23:16 Suicidal ideation was something I struggled with for a long time.

23:22 Counselling helped over time, but a lot of it came down to friends really showing up for me.

23:32 Ultimately, it was the people around me who helped keep me alive, and I’m very grateful for that.

23:41 What strategies did you learn in counselling that helped?

23:59 One of the biggest takeaways was learning that some days you’re just not okay—and that’s okay.

24:15 You don’t need to analyse every feeling or try to explain it in detail.

24:24 Sometimes you just feel off, and that’s enough to acknowledge.

24:30 Sitting and over-analysing why you feel that way often doesn’t help.

24:37 For me, it was about learning not to spiral into constant self-examination.

24:46 Being honest about how you’re feeling is important—you don’t always have to mask it.

24:56 In the group, I spent years putting on a brave face, which became exhausting.

25:08 That constant masking is emotionally draining over time.

25:12 So learning that it’s okay to just say “I’m not okay today” was huge.

25:19 You don’t need to force yourself into fixing it immediately.

25:22 Sometimes you just accept the day for what it is.

25:30 Before therapy, I would ruminate constantly and try to rationalise everything.

25:45 That often made things worse rather than better.

25:54 Therapy helped me understand that it’s okay to not be okay.

26:02 That simple idea had a big impact once I actually accepted it.

26:10 The next step was figuring out what actually brings you some sense of relief or joy.

26:18 It didn’t need to be anything big—small things counted too.

26:28 It could be mowing the lawns, eating toast, or sitting in the sun.

26:31 Those moments don’t fix everything, but they help in small ways.

26:41 You learn what helps you, even if it only works temporarily.

26:47 It becomes part of self-discovery—learning what actually affects your state of mind.

26:55 I didn’t really know what those things were for me at first.

27:04 Sometimes it’s as simple as reading in the sun or taking a quiet moment.

27:16 For you, music and art became a major part of that, right?

27:23 Music was actually restricted in the group—you weren’t supposed to engage with it.

27:34 In my family there was some exposure, but overall it was seen as something negative.

27:42 I never experienced music as evil—it was always a safe space for me.

27:50 I would lie in bed listening to music for hours as a way of escaping.

27:58 That relationship with music continued even after leaving.

28:08 I’ve spoken with other survivors who had very similar experiences with music in the group.

28:16 They also engaged with it quietly or secretly, despite the rules.

28:25 Music became something that brought joy and understanding rather than guilt.

28:32 It was something people would connect over, even across different countries and experiences.

28:41 That shared experience of music created connection and recognition.

28:50 For me, it eventually grew into DJing and radio work after leaving.

28:59 It developed into meeting people, learning skills, and building something creative.

29:16 But at its core, it was always a safe place I could return to.

29:21 Something that helped regulate how I felt and gave me relief.

29:29 You also run a podcast called Five Servings of Truth.

29:33 Yes, I do.

29:40 And you also do advocacy work around male sexual abuse and related issues.

29:47 Can you tell us about your work with Road to Healing and similar spaces?

29:56 Over the past few years, I’ve found that my story overlaps with a lot of different advocacy spaces.

30:05 There are strong connections between my experience and wider issues in similar groups.

30:13 One of those areas is the long history of sexual abuse within the 2×2 group.

30:20 In recent years, more of that has come into public awareness through charges and media coverage.

30:29 Unfortunately, abuse is a common pattern in many high-control environments.

30:37 That’s why advocacy work across different survivor groups often overlaps and connects.

30:45 I have connected with lots of cool people but particularly the road to healing altered I connected with Sam who I don’t even know how it started it was

30:54 I believe it was on Instagram and he was doing one of his walks and yeah and you know we’ve become big supporters of each other because

31:01 even though his his push is just around sexual harm the overlap is coercive control manipulation you know, and these are all the sorts of

31:09 ideologies and behaviors that happen within high control groups that the end point is is abuse. So, there’s the overlap.

31:17 And when you connect with someone and yeah, you support each other, the message is the same. There’s a vibe

31:23 there. So, it’s been cool to connect and work with other people within the space that’s not just around

31:31 religion or high control groups, but the overlap’s the same. And you share resources because the the healing and the help is the same. Exactly.

31:38 For someone who’s been harmed, whether they’ve been part of a church group or not. Yeah.

31:42 Those services are the same. So, it’s it’s Yeah. Yeah. Awesome to meet these people.

31:48 Yeah. No, I I really admire the work that Sam’s doing and and those other guys that you work with. Um, I follow I follow I follow all of their stuff. And

31:57 um you know as as as a as a sexual abuse victim myself, you know, I I speak out

32:03 quite quite publicly and and as often as I get given an opportunity to talk about

32:09 it because it it it’s so under reported and not well known about the level of

32:18 just how much sexual abuse that males are subject to.

32:24 Um, and I think it, you know, it’s it’s almost like one of the last taboos and there’s a lot of stigma around it and I

32:31 really admire what you and Sam and the other guys are doing and and I, you know, carry on.

32:38 Yeah. Yeah. No, thank you. No, that Yeah. Um, you mentioned Sam and yeah, shouts out to him. So, I mean, this this

32:44 this would go some way to talking about, you know, I want to I want to ask you how did you how did you begin creating

32:51 safety and connection and meaning outside your group? And you’ve you’ve sort of stated music was one of them, art was another. So, you you have this

33:00 um you you make art out of vinyl records, which is

33:07 super meta, I guess, because you love music. And um yeah, talk talk to me a little bit about your art.

33:14 Yeah, so that’s sort of been something that’s happened in the last five or six years. Just I mean, everyone’s an artist

33:21 in some way. Everyone’s got creative creativity inside them. And and it just spawned from bits of plastic, some old scratch

33:29 records that I was given through my mate at the music shop that were unplayable, damaged, and then making stencils and getting spray paints and creating

33:38 designs and having a bit of a go and going, “Oh, that looks kind of cool.” And then people, you know, feedback is always people like, “Wa, that’s really cool.” Cuz in ourselves,

33:46 we don’t think we’re very creative. We don’t think we can do much. And you make something and someone sees it and it’s that sort of that. Yeah, it it’s just another outlet as well, I guess.

33:57 Um, yeah. So, that’s sort of only been in the last five or six years. It’s such a buzz when you make someone something and someone loves it or in a few times

34:06 someone has actually brought something, which is really really cool to know that something you created, someone loves it that much they want to hang it on their wall.

34:13 There’s there’s such a a cathartic process.

34:17 And I mean the the art the making of art is a cathartic process and is would you say the music and the I mean surely the

34:27 music was a safe space to go but you know did you find that making the art helped you heal in some way. It’s just I

34:36 find it so relaxing so I can just go out into the garage put some music on but sometimes I have no idea what I’m doing.

34:45 Absolutely no idea. and I’ll just freestyle and make something and sometimes it’s like, “Yeah, that’s really cool.” Sometimes it goes a bit wonky and you end up,

34:53 I don’t know, trying to fix it or whatever. But it is absolutely a healing process. Absolutely. 100%. Mhm.

35:00 Um being creative, um visualizing things, imagining things in your mind, having the music going,

35:09 being in a Yeah, it’s it definitely is for for me for me. I’m I’m sure for others as well, but definitely a healing space. Um, keeping your brain working.

35:18 Um, seeing colors, imagining things. Um, yeah, it’s it’s just again like like my

35:27 running, like my music, it’s an escape for x amount of time to take your mind and put it somewhere else.

35:34 And then if you create something good out of that time, awesome. Sometimes you might spend two hours out there, think you’ve done the most amazing thing, and

35:43 then you ruin it or whatever, and you’re like, “Oh my god, so good.” But yeah, I for what it is and what I use it for, I love it.

35:52 Yeah. And you you and you also talk about, so you’re also quite a a fitness orientated guy and so you do a lot of um

36:00 long-distance running. um that that also must be very um healing you know that

36:08 the I’ I’ve found so when I go tramping I don’t do running but I don’t like

36:14 running why um I like tramping I like snowboarding um and when when I’m in the

36:22 sort of flow state you know your sort of mind wanders off and you don’t think

36:30 about anything in particular sometimes you don’t about anything at all. Mhm.

36:34 Um and you know it’s akin to meditation almost. Yes.

36:39 Um which is something I find very difficult now because the meditation in in Fong Gong was um abusive.

36:48 Yeah. Yeah. Um very triggering for you probably.

36:52 Yeah. So I I find I find meditating now very difficult. But I do find things like cramping and snowboarding. And do you do you find that the same with your

37:00 running? Yeah, absolutely. So that’s I’d say that’d be something I’ve been doing probably for the last 15 years now, right?

37:09 Um more in the last few years, trail running. Mhm.

37:13 But running in general, it it’s the same as art is the same as the music, you know, getting that professional help

37:20 when I did finding those things. It was the running and the music. Of course, arts come later, but what made you it’s

37:28 endorphins. What makes you feel good on a terrible day? You can just go run for 20 minutes and while listening to music.

37:35 Yeah, I always listen to music and you just feel so much better. But it’s the same as the music and the art. It’s an escape. It’s just to take yourself out

37:42 and as you say, go out in nature. It’s the movement. It’s all of it combined. Your mind can think about the music.

37:52 Your mind can think about absolutely nothing.

37:54 Mhm. you. I’ve created so many cool things while I’m out running and had so many good ideas. That’s great. Yeah. But it’s just taking yourself out.

38:02 I love just running down by the river.

38:04 There’s really very many people down there.

38:07 And it’s also something my partner and I do and something we connected over is running together. Sometimes we’ll run together with our music on and do our own thing. And then sometimes

38:16 we’ll say, “No music today. We’re going to talk to each other. We’re going to enjoy what’s going on around us. We’re going to do it together and be present.

38:25 Um, both are awesome and just like the art, just like the music, definitely healing properties, and definitely some with somewhere I can escape to. Like,

38:34 it’s always there. I always know I can put my shoes on, I can go out the door, I might hate it for the first 10 minutes, but after that, I feel

38:43 And when you come back, you might have only run for 10k or whatever, but you feel like you’re the champion of the world,

38:50 right? you do. So, it’s flowing through your body, you know, you feel great. You get home and, you know, that’s right.

38:57 Yeah. Yeah. So, so sometimes sometimes you just need an activity to sort of, you know, for one of a better word,

39:04 distract you, get get yourself out of your head. And like you say, it can be something as as

39:11 non-taxing physically as art or listening to music, or it can be full hardcore intentional

39:19 hard work. But I mean, you know, you it could be for some people it could be reading books or it could be swimming.

39:25 You know, there’s there’s, you know, finding an activity or hobby. Find your thing.

39:29 Find your thing. Absolutely. Find your thing.

39:32 That’s a really useful healing being a technique.

39:36 I believe an underrated superpower is being to be able to be in your own company. Yeah. And feel good.

39:44 Mhm. Definitely an underrated superpower is definitely being alone, being in your own company and being okay with it.

39:51 Yeah. Learning learning self- resilience.

39:53 And that doesn’t even mean to be doing an activity like we talked about. It might just be sitting pottering around home all day by yourself.

40:02 Mhm.

40:02 And and just okay in your own company and in your own space. I think that’s a really I really really really enjoy it.

40:10 But I think it’s quite a superpower. I agree. I absolutely agree. So, um,

40:18 thinking back, um, a little bit to, you know, when you got out and and you were discovering all these all these things.

40:29 Um, but you had, you said you, you know, you you left, you must have still had

40:36 glimpses of fear and doubt. And you know what what helped you learn to trust

40:43 yourself again and sort of determine well this is group think and this is me you know is there was there anything

40:50 specifically that you did that helped man that’s a really really really good question

40:58 I’m not sure there was anything in particular I was just ready to move on like I as I said before I just had

41:05 enough of the [__] and I it’s the best way I can put it. Yeah. There’s just more to this.

41:12 And having great friends and having this like it just didn’t make sense that I was somehow better than these people. Yeah.

41:18 And that these awesome people who have been in my life who are my great friends Mhm.

41:23 weren’t it it just didn’t correlate. It didn’t make sense.

41:28 Mhm. Um, was there still fear there that I’ll be moving away from something and my life’s going to fall apart and I

41:36 might die and I’ll end up in some burning pit?

41:40 I really can’t remember, right?

41:42 But I was just I felt free. Obviously, there was things I had to work through like I talked about. There was things going on, but outside of that, it’s just like there’s more to this.

41:54 Bring it on. Mhm.

41:56 Um, that’s great. Yeah.

41:59 So there were every things everyday things that came that became a car a part of your recovery you know like the

42:07 running um like the the music and the art. What about um

42:15 what about your family? What what happened there with relationships and how did you reconcile with what you were

42:23 you know you’re now making a conscious decision to not be part of this. How did you how did you deal with your family?

42:29 Yeah, me and my brother I have an older brother. We left at about the same time.

42:34 Um, never had discussion about it. It just sort of happened.

42:39 Always had a great relationship with my parents. They continued to be part of the church and our relationship never

42:46 changed. I don’t remember ever being a conversation about I’m going to do this now. it just

42:55 sort of evolved into that and they respected the decision I made and they

43:02 didn’t push and pull and try and bring me back in. Mhm.

43:06 Um, as as I said before, everyone’s experience is so different as to how their family reacts.

43:13 probably I’m going to say because of the the family environment we had and how our upbringing was,

43:21 there was a level of respect and understanding that they could see that I was just doing me. Mhm. I wasn’t out there.

43:30 Yeah.

43:30 How did how how do they feel now that you’re doing all this advocacy? Well, my parents have also left. They left um nearly two years ago.

43:38 Oh, wow. That’s awesome.

43:39 Yeah, that’s very awesome. um something that great that’s come out of but it was a yeah you

43:46 people need to come to that decision by themselves. You can’t make someone from your experience also. You can’t make

43:54 someone leave a high control environment or a group. That’s a decision you need to make and you can

44:01 be there to show them what’s possible, but you can’t directly save them or take them out.

44:08 And I would like to think me standing up as who I am and putting the message out that I put

44:16 out. And I said this on um Sam Cellers’s podcast as well because she asked me a very similar question. What was the the

44:24 thing that came out of this? And it was it was great because I’d like to think that me putting out this message possibly helped influence their decision.

44:34 Mhm.

44:34 Not that I sat them down and said, “I would like you to do X, Y, and Z.” But to see that

44:41 the harm the harm that I had endured,

44:50 not only being part of that group, but after I had left the group

44:57 and finally recognizing and talking about it, possibly made people understand

45:05 that they’re not safe environments to be in. Mhm.

45:09 Did you I was Yeah, I was indeently assaulted by an

45:16 ex-worker after I left the group and I didn’t tell anybody. Right.

45:22 Only talked about it about two years ago. Mhm.

45:26 I fought with it in my mind for a long time and tried to work out make it that it wasn’t that which is very common. Mhm.

45:37 Cuz I was embarrassed by it, particularly being a male, as we talked about. Mhm.

45:43 To wrestle with that and then put it out there, I think, made those close to me realize that these environments aren’t

45:51 safe and the behaviors that everyone participates in and the ideologies that everyone clings on to and follows,

46:00 that is a symptom of it and I was harmed. Does that make sense? Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah.

46:07 Absolutely. So, we’re we’re sort of coming towards the last sort of portion of the the podcast now.

46:14 Um, if someone listening to this right now is at the

46:21 beginning of their of this process of leaving, what would you want them to know? What helped most for you?

46:32 I feel now there’s so much more information and support

46:40 out there now than there was even five years ago. Yeah. Yeah. It’s about building community now.

46:49 It’s again everyone’s experience within those groups have been so different. So what people’s needs are are not always the same.

46:57 Yeah. But I feel the best thing you can do is there are people to reach out to. Now it doesn’t have to be someone people who have been

47:05 part of the same group. There’s definitely services and things out there that are available for for that

47:12 connect with people who haven’t been part of the same group you’re part of. Mh.

47:16 But also I feel it’s about creating relationships and finding people and friends that have never been

47:24 part of these groups is so healthy. Mhm.

47:27 to sort of that’s always going to be in your life. It’s never going to go away that you were in this group and these things happened and whatever. But

47:34 if you can have some people around you and some group and support around you of people that have never been part of any group like that or even part of the same

47:43 group as you, I find it’s very healthy to have a balance of both. Yeah, I agree. Yeah, that’s great. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah.

47:50 But also that I’m not saying that’s really easy to easy to do also. No, no, but there is help available. There’s people available. And there are people

47:59 out there who have been in the same group as you who can help you and support you and possibly lead you

48:06 in the right direction, whatever that is. But there good people out there. There are good people out there. There are. Yeah.

48:14 Um like, so um I’ve got three sort of quick questions that I want to ask you. Sort of rapidish fire.

48:24 If you if you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

48:32 You’re making the right decision. Even though it’s there’s going to be some wild stuff going to happen. You’re m

48:41 you’re doing it. You are making a choice for yourself.

48:45 Yeah, you have a choice in it. You are making a choice for yourself. That’s good.

48:54 If you had to name one thing that supported you the most, what would that be? Friends.

49:03 Nice. Worldly friends. Worldly friends.

49:09 And what would you like people to know about people leaving cults? you know, those those that haven’t never been in a cult, what what would you say to them?

49:23 That the harm is not always physical. I think sometimes it’s been glamorized a

49:29 bit much, that people are always physically harmed when they’re in cults, right? people aren’t also it’s it’s also

49:38 the indoctrination and the information and the um coercive control in the words can

49:46 sometimes have a massive effect on people as well.

49:49 It’s not just some physical things that have happened. Yeah.

49:52 Um yeah, the systems and the programming can have a lot of harm as well. It doesn’t necessarily have to be physical.

50:00 So yeah, there’s a lot of deprogramming that needs to be done.

50:04 Yeah. Um, yeah. On top of possibly other Yeah.

50:07 And and and one last thing, so if if if there’s any one thing that we’ve left out that you would like to say, what

50:16 what would it be? What what have we not talked about that you would like to leave with our listeners?

50:23 Um, we kind of touched on a little bit, but I think to the other fellow advocates out there as well, it’s quite

50:31 a it’s quite a hard thing to do. Um, I know some people do it for a job, but there’s a number of us who don’t. It’s

50:39 just something we want to help in. And it can be quite a draining and hard space to be in. And sometimes you can feel quite alone

50:46 when there’s not many of you doing the same thing. And it’s quite sometimes quite easy to get annoyed about it. Um

50:55 but it’s about looking looking after yourself as well. It is a lonely space.

51:00 So just be kind to yourself. And when you find those people that you connect with, like hold them tight. Mhm.

51:08 When that you won’t vibe with everyone, but there’ll be people that you’ll vibe with and feel Yeah. they’re quite quite likeminded.

51:16 Um Yeah. But just don’t wear yourself out as well. Yeah, you can feel alone at times, but there are we’ve Yeah, we’ve

51:25 all felt it. It’s just be be careful with yourself as well.

51:29 Take time out as well because it can be quite overwhelming sometimes you’re hearing and taking on a lot of stuff.

51:35 And if you do that continually over and over and over and over, it can it can wear on you. Yeah. Yeah. So, caution and rest.

51:45 Absolutely.

51:45 Yeah. That’s wonderful. Thank you so much, Tristan. Um, it’s really, it’s been awesome listening to your story.

51:53 Um, so that’s us wrapping up another episode of Unspun. Um, a huge thanks to you, Tristan. I’m sure your story is

52:00 going to inspire a lot of people, um, as it has me. Uh, thank you for spending time with us. We know these stories can

52:07 stir a lot and we’re grateful you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to

52:16 listen, and to feel. Thank you.

0:10 Welcome to tonight's episode of Unspun, where we continue our Jehovah's Witnesses series. Tonight, we're sitting down with someone who's born into the

0:19 Jehovah's Witness community, a world they didn't choose, but were shaped by from the very beginning. We talk about what it was like growing up inside the

0:27 faith, the beliefs, the rules, the expectations, and how those early messages seep into your sense of self.

0:35 We explore what it takes to untangle from a world that wants defined everything, your identity, your future, or even your safety. And we speak

0:44 honestly about the long road of rebuilding, healing, and learning to stand on solid ground beyond it. On the pod today, we are interviewing Justin

0:53 White aka Rusty. Rusty is a highly regarded New Zealand comedian based in Christ Church. Known for his award-winning standup and energetic live

1:02 performances, he has been a staple of the South Island comedy scene and has been described as a cult classic comedian. Rusty is known for his

1:10 fast-paced, often chaotic and hilarious storytelling with reviews calling his work a finely polish finally polished

1:20 masterwork. His material often focuses on absurd observations and personal stories. Rusty grew up as a Jehovah's Witness and walked away as a teenager.

1:28 And now he turns that world into comedy gold. His humor is dark, a little irreverent, and deeply personal, pulling

1:34 from the strange, intense, and sometimes surreal moments of life inside a high control religion. We met him at the

1:43 Doomsday Comedy event, loved his set, and invited him on the pod to unpack the story behind the jokes.

1:44 Welcome.

1:53 How we doing? Good. Good. So, to start off, tell us uh a little about who you are

1:59 today and what like what life looks for you now.

2:03 Yikes. Big questions. Um who I am today.

2:11 Um I fix guitars during the day. I play music and perform at night. I'm in lots

2:16 of projects. Keep myself real busy. And that's pretty much the sum total of it.

2:22 There's not really a lot else in my life apart from work and performing.

2:29 And so you but you also um are a musician as well, aren't you? Yeah. Yeah.

2:36 And you and you told you told me before we started that you were in you were in four different projects. Yeah.

2:41 Yeah. That's incredible. That's that's a huge amount of output. You like to keep yourself busy.

2:46 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I have a brain that is not built for downtime.

2:54 Um yeah. Yeah. I I I don't know what to do with free time, so I'd like to be busy and doing [ __ ] all the time.

3:05 That's cool. That's cool. So, um tell us about what your world was like inside inside the Jehovah's Witness community and how how did it shape you?

3:14 Oh, so so many ways. So I was uh raised in a divided household. Uh my mom was

3:22 very devout uh Jehovah's Witness. Um very much seeking to make Jehovah proud.

3:30 Dad was an angry atheist drinker. Um two incredibly different worldviews. Um

3:38 they didn't really so much struggle over our spiritual upbringing. Uh my father thought the church was a wonderful way

3:45 of getting children out of the house um and away from him. Uh so he just kind of

3:53 sat in the background which I know isn't the case with all you know um divided households. Sometimes there's a real battleground between the parents for the

4:02 souls of the children. Um dad didn't give a [ __ ] about our souls. It was fine. um

4:10 mom because she had pardon me because she had married an unbeliever. She she

4:20 converted uh when she was 18 uh to Jehovah's Witnesses um who you know found her at a very vulnerable state.

4:27 Her upbringing was not cool. Um and yeah, they love a person in a vulnerable state. They'll get on in

4:36 there. She met my dad when she was like 22. Uh married an unbeliever, so was dysfellowshipped and then spent years

4:45 bowing and scraping to get her way back in. But because of that, no matter what congregation there she was in, there was a stigma that traveled with her from

4:47 elder group to elder group, right?

4:55 You know, someone who will make terrible decisions. I don't know if you've ever been 20 before, but

4:59 you probably made some terrible decisions. I know I did. Yeah.

5:07 Um and that ship will follow you around the rest of your life in the organization. So she was desperate for

5:17 approval from an organization that kind of victimized her. Um and we were pawns in that game. Like uh you bring up good

5:25 devout, you know, children that always have something cool to say and the answers and clearly do that then that helps your standing in the congregation.

5:32 So, um, there's a lot of direct and insistent encouragement and that that

5:40 underlying kind of gee, mom's already got such a [ __ ] deal in life. I don't want to be the person that disappoints

5:48 her further. You know, mother's disappointment was always the the worst thing. Dad would just beat

5:49 you, you know, right?

6:00 And well, once it's over, it's over. And you learn that physical pain there's a high degree of forbearance that you can train yourself into.

6:07 But you know, mom but being disappointed in you hurt a lot more than anything dad could do. Right. Right.

6:15 Um I grew up I've got a bunch of older brothers and sisters, but I really only grew up with one of them um who's three

6:23 years older than me. Uh yeah, he was caught up in the same thing. Um,

6:35 you're made to feel strange and other from everybody else in the world. Um, it's a lot harder going through school.

6:42 Um, making friends, doing all the normal things normal kids do. Um,

6:49 you are very twisted in your ideas about other people, you know, but Jehovah's Witness

6:59 is a very zero sum game. You're in the cult or you are an evil Satan worshipping bag of crap uh with no moral

7:09 fiber or you know. Um, so I think the thing for me because I left

7:13 relatively early in life, you know, I was 15, 15 and a half.

7:20 Um, I found it relatively easy to walk away from the beliefs. They seem just stupid,

7:28 just really dumb. Like if the omnipotent creator of the universe

7:35 really did have a detailed plan, I suspect it would be at least better written, you know, like

7:42 I I imagine that the you know, the creator of the universe might be an effective communicator. Um, and you

7:50 know, the beliefs are obviously idiotic, relatively easy to beat, especially if you get out early enough.

7:59 But the conditioning is a whole other thing. and something I myself did not realize was even at play until decades

8:08 after I'd left when I was uh trying to sort my brain out a bit and saw a therapist and sort of the first

8:16 consultation I briefly outlined you know my problems why I was there and he said were you brought up religious by any

8:25 chance and I went yeah I was he says were you brought up as a Jehovah's witness by any chance I was like, "Yeah,

8:34 how'd you figure that?" And he said, "You [ __ ] should have a syndrome named after you." He said, "Let me just say

8:40 some things and see if they try with you." And he rattled off three or four things. And I was like, "Yeah, bingo.

8:46 All of them." And he's like, "Yeah." And he explained to me that the conditioning was a lot more professional than the

8:56 beliefs, you know, and because I've been born into it, that conditioning had been applied to me the instant I was aware.

9:00 And that's the stuff that messes you up belong to. Yeah.

9:07 You know, yeah, I had a lifelong battle with just an unexplained self-loathing that nothing I

9:14 achieved, nothing I did was ever good enough or worthy. I wasn't worthy of love or having anything good happen to

9:20 me because I'm a worthless clay slave built built to disappoint God. Yeah.

9:27 Now, you don't say that out loud to yourself, but if it's ingrained in subcutaneously,

9:34 you know, your whole life, you will carry that [ __ ] around with you like finely made luggage the rest of your life. Yeah.

9:36 Until you realize that that's what it is. Yeah.

9:44 And when you say, "Who am I now? I'm a whole bunch happier than I was just a few years ago. Right?

9:50 Because the first step to breaking your conditioning is recognizing you've been conditioned.

10:00 So, so let's talk about that. Let's what what was, you know, what was the catalyst moment that led to you leaving?

It was kind of a storm uh of various things. I was resisting getting

10:14 baptized. Uh I'd been kind of pumo from I don't know about the age of 11. You

10:23 know, I was one of them bright kids and I saw the inconsistencies, the outright

10:30 lies, the fact that if you were too curious and answered difficult questions, you

10:38 weren't a keen student that wanted to know about Jehovah. you were a troublemaking little [ __ ] you know, and

10:46 that just seemed really inongruous. But I tried to stay in for as long as I could for my mother's sake, you know.

10:55 Um, but eventually you do the math and you go, I can't actually pretend to be

11:04 someone else for the rest of my life to make my parents happy or one parent, you know. Um, and if you can and you think

11:11 that that's worth the investment, well, good luck to you, but I don't think it'll work out. You can't live your life for other people. You You got to do it

11:18 for you. Um, so I was resisting getting baptized. I made a few worldly friends

11:24 because most of the people in my congregation I just did not gel with whatsoever.

11:30 Um, I got into trouble, you know. I got I got drunk once.

11:37 Oh. Yeah. Yeah. And from then on just instant alcoholic and you know started started beating people up and stealing

11:45 cars of course. But no, no. I And what really the thing that was the last fiber

11:54 to snap and set me a drift was the fact that um when I got in trouble, they took my stuff.

12:00 Like they took my stereo away and my bicycle, you know, like.

12:09 And that made me think, a what a bunch of petty little [ __ ] and B, wow, this is conditional, you know.

12:09 Yeah.

12:16 All this love, all this faith, all this togetherness, righteousness, and solidarity is really, really

12:23 conditional. It's not absolute. It is um, you know,

12:31 it you can't bang on that stuff unless you follow all the rules. And I think that was the thing that made me go, I'm

12:39 not only not going to meetings anymore, I'm getting the [ __ ] out of here and I'm running as far as I can. Yeah.

12:48 Um, and I was not ready to leave home and things were real real difficult as a 15year-old with with, you know, uh, no

12:54 support network or resources or anything. And I ended up in pretty dicey situation there for a while. You know, I

13:03 was a homeless street kid. Uh but you know at least I hadn't built an

13:11 entire life and got married and had a family while paring nonsense I didn't believe and I absolutely know why people

13:18 would make that choice. It is real real difficult to break away that early when you've got you know nothing

13:27 but it would have been even harder to shatter a whole bunch of other people's lives by leaving. Um, and that gives them even longer to work the

13:34 conditioning into you, which makes it harder to stand on your own and and get it get get out.

13:41 Yeah, I appreciate that. Um, do did you have any outside support when you left?

13:44 Um, or was it just a completely solitary journey?

13:52 I'm kind of don't know how much I can actually say. Um, I'm very conscious. I only want to tell

14:00 my story. Um there there was another witness kid who was kind of going through the same thing. And while we

14:08 weren't in a position to support each other materially at all, it we did hang out. We played in a band together for a

14:15 while and it was um that that I felt some solidarity with that. My main

14:24 support network was was the band I was playing with and the professional gentleman who supplied me

14:29 with marijuana in order to sell at school. Right. How I made ends meet for a while.

14:35 Um because I kept going to school while living in a tent on the beach, living in the back of a church, in the streets, whatever.

14:44 Wow. Um, weirdly enough, those hard to describe me anything other than a crime family, but they showed me a lot

14:51 more support and unconditional uh fellow feeling than anybody from the church ever did. And they thought my

14:58 situation was kind of tragic. And they were like, well, you know, you can uh keep yourself in in in service station

15:05 pies and uh um sell a bit of weed for us at at your high school. and and they really looked after me to a certain

15:12 extent, you know, they helped me get my first place and uh and that sort of thing. And it feels

15:21 awfully strange to say, you know, the the community Christ loving network dedicated to spreading peace and

15:29 goodwill among earth stole my bicycle while a crime family helped a homeless urchin get on their feet.

15:33 Yeah. The the irony is thick.

15:40 and and those bad guys when I left town there was no oh no you owe us it was all

15:48 like good on you man get out of here get your life started that's awesome you know which is crazy right yeah that is crazy

15:55 so the so I want to talk a bit about the social architecture of the ex jobs and

16:03 you know specifically shunning in family um you know there's they have this policy of dysfellowshipping

16:13 um it's a central pillar of the JW structure. How have you managed to build a chosen family in your life now outside of the organization?

16:20 One of the reasons I didn't want to get baptized is I didn't want to get this fellowship. Um by the time I figured out that eventually I was going to leave, I

16:28 thought, well, if I get baptized and I get this fellowship, um I'll never be able to to speak to my mom ever again, right?

16:32 Well, it turns out if people feel like shunning you, they're going to. Yeah.

16:38 Um, and the other thing was I I ran. I didn't want anything from anybody

16:45 connected to that world. I wanted to either fail horrendously on my own,

16:54 succeed gloriously on my own, or muddle my way through a life of mediocrity on my own. But I just didn't want anything

17:02 from from them. Um, but yeah, certainly other members of the congregation treated me like I might as well as being dysfellowship. No one

17:10 would, you know, acknowledge me or anything like that. But to be fair, I wasn't trying

17:18 to to be acknowledged. I just wanted to get out, make a clean break, and uh get away as far from those manipulative people as possible.

17:26 And you already had sort of a connection with the outside world with your music and your band. So yeah, which was very controversial with the elders. They didn't want me

17:34 of course playing rockus music. Um I mean, you know, it's deeply weird for a teenage boy to want to play an electric guitar.

17:36 I know. That's strange.

17:42 Yeah. If I see teenagers playing a guitar, I slap it out of their hands and say, "No, no, think about your choices.

17:53 Think about your life, son." Yeah. Um but but honestly, music is is always been, you know, if I need a savior, that's what it is.

18:03 You get together with people and you put all your skills together to make something that's way more than any of you are on your own.

18:07 I guess that's what a lot of people want want a church to be like. Yeah.

18:15 You know, so for anybody out there who's looking for that real good feeling and a communal uh enterprise you can get into and actually get something spiritual,

18:22 ethereal, and real out of it, join a band. Yeah. Learn an instrument, you know.

18:28 And and music is something that has always required all of my concentration.

18:36 And same with standup. Like when I'm performing standup, there is no part of my brain that is anxious, depressed, worried, frightened, whatever. There's

18:44 no room for anything else. And I I love that about, you know, creation and performance is the way that it just

18:51 consumes everything you got. There's no bandwidth to feel like [ __ ] A lot a lot of people refer to that as the as the

18:59 flow state. Yeah. Do you do you chime with that? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's really cool.

19:06 So So for many um leaving leaving at the the organization means losing their

19:14 entire social and familial network overnight. And um you've mentioned a few times how how close you were with your

19:23 mom, how much you loved her. Um, how did you navigate that initial void of connection?

19:32 Well, it's a a whole big complicated bag of worms. There's a there's a bunch of extenduating factors that are probably

19:42 outside of the scope of the conversation we're having that um, yeah, I I I got the [ __ ] out. I ran away, right?

19:50 You know, I At that stage, I felt like

19:56 the church were a a brain parasite that my mother suffered from.

20:07 Um, I mean, reading the publications today, like it's noticeable how dumbed down everything is and how a obviously aiming for idiots they are, right?

20:12 Because that's an easy convert and and an easy person to keep under the thumb.

20:19 My mom was far from an idiot. She was very smart woman. She just had had her

20:26 brain vandalized by by experts. Um, and

20:33 so I didn't I still don't and and never really have I've never really held anything against my parents, you know.

20:41 Uh, both of them did [ __ ] up things, but not because they were [ __ ] up people, because they had [ __ ] up information.

20:43 Yeah.

Most [ __ ] don't know they're being [ __ ] right? They just believe in correct stuff and they're acting on the information that they have for what they

20:51 believe is the best purpose. But if the information is garbage, then the purpose is garbage and the deeds will be garbage.

20:58 But, you know, I’ve never railed against them as people that just, you know, that’s just the mill they had.

21:09 And in particular, my mom, like I said, her upbringing was real hard out.

21:13 And she was never going to turn out 100% normal or well adjusted after that.

21:20 And this is one of the things I get angry at the JDubs about is they do look for people in that state. They look for

21:28 people in a moment of weakness, in a moment of high amount of stress, people who have weaknesses of various sorts. That’s catnet to a cult.

21:38 You know, that is their way in. They promise you, “Oh yeah, you feel like [__] because your life’s real hard.” Well, guess what? In any minute now,

21:46 Jesus is going to come and make it all better. That’s a compelling message to somebody whose reality is inescapably

21:56 [__]

21:57 Yeah. Yeah. Um anytime my brother is in Islam and he has

22:05 been for 35 years and he’s quite fundamentalist and anytime I sort of complain about my

22:12 life, like I’m just having a yarn, just having a moan, he immediately pounces on that and

22:20 goes, “Well, you should become a Muslim because it will solve all of your problems.” And this is true. And this is absolutely

22:29 true because history shows that not one single Muslim has had a bad day in the last 700 years. It’s all made better by the promise of Allah.

22:39 That’s right. That’s a great way to put it. That’s really good.

22:43 So, once you were out, what was an everyday task that was just hard to adjust to?

22:59 everyday task. And the initial

23:07 biggest shock was discovering that worldly people aren’t all thieving

23:14 rapist murderers. You’re taught that nobody outside the religion has a shred of moral fibre.

23:21 encountering people like the gents I mentioned before, people that fall into

23:30 a definition of absolute and sheer horror in the Jehovah’s Witnesses that acted with a greater

23:39 amount of ethicality and moral clarity than a lot of these people that had been

23:47 teaching us all that we’re vile broken slaves. Yeah.

23:52 That was difficult realizing that the outside world had rules too. Yeah.

23:58 boundaries and that they were different ones.

24:05 I don’t know if I really struggled with any kind of everyday task

24:13 because immediately after getting out my life was real hectic, topsy-turvy, desperate scrabble for a while

24:19 there. Got my feet, moved to Christchurch with the band I was playing in in Timaru

24:28 at the time. They helped me out heaps.

24:34 They told me for as long as they’d known me, you got to get out of this weird church you guys go to. They could see that I was at war with

24:42 myself, that at heart I’m kind of a laid-back live-and-let-live empiricist.

24:51 I like measurements. I’m kind of mechanistic. I want things to make sense.

24:59 I don’t really have a spiritual bone in my body.

25:08 I’m kind of mechanistic like that. I want things to make sense. I like it when people’s ideas are

25:16 amenable to change. If you get better information, you should have better ideas.

25:24 You shouldn’t go, “This information might be real good but doesn’t jive with my preconceptions.”

25:29 So you had a level of critical thinking.

25:34 I think quite a lot of people didn’t. It seems like you figured a lot of this out before you’d even left.

25:43 Remember when the evolution book came out… I was reading this going this is so

25:58 flawed on so many levels. They quote scientists but the quotes are stitched together and out of context.

26:07 My superpower was that witnesses are supposed to closely watch what their children consume.

26:15 I figured out if the book looked boring enough on the outside I could read whatever I liked.

26:23 No one checked the title. My peers couldn’t recognise authors.

26:30 So I read everything I could get my hands on.

26:41 That helped me see outside the narrow spectrum of acceptable information.

26:57 You’ve talked about your comedy career and stand-up. You mentioned wanting to be

27:15 busy all the time because anxieties creep in. How do you handle

27:22 triggers or moments when old cult thinking creeps in?

27:34 I use an approach that is at odds with most psychological advice. Don’t use my method.

27:49 Psychotherapists talk about acceptance and allowance.

28:02 I don’t accept and I don’t allow. I will bully myself. It works for me.

28:15 My best defence is a short sharp “come on dude”.

28:30 Didn’t walk all this way to turn back now.

28:33 It’s a win-loss thing. If I lose control of my mind, the old system wins.

28:54 I’ve put too much work into allowing that to happen.

29:00 That’s how I get through things like social phobia.

29:18 I got a job in retail. Forces you to talk to people.

29:22 You handle things head on with brute force.

29:37 There isn’t just one way of recovery. Everyone is different.

29:57 JWs are taught the world is under Satan’s control. When did you realise it wasn’t as dark as you were told?

30:16 I don’t know. I can’t pinpoint the moment.

30:24 I always suspected it wasn’t that bad.

30:33 I was into history. You realise no one is really in charge.

30:50 If anyone is, they need management training.

31:06 If Satan has been running things for thousands of years, you’d expect better results.

31:23 It doesn’t seem to be improving.

31:26 Um and yet despite all the various vectors and ways in which your life can

31:33 go to hell in modern society, people still keep on being good. And you know,

31:41 it’s funny that the one thing that the worldly media and the Watchtower Bible and Tract

31:48 Society kind of both go on about at the same time and myths that need busting.

31:54 They’re both full of [__]. There are more good people than bad people in the world. And there are more smart people than dumb people in the world, right?

32:04 And I think if all of us said that to ourselves at least once a day, it’d be easier because we’re constantly getting

32:12 told that you’re the only clever one and everybody else is a dun.

32:16 You’re the only good one and everybody else is evil. Well, no. [__] that, man.

32:20 When we had the earthquakes in Christchurch, that really pulled the skin off what people really are. Yeah.

32:27 When your city’s falling over and [__] gets real, people are cooperative. Yeah.

32:35 People are not exploitative. They’re collaborative. People look out for other people. And the harder the situation gets, the more good people act.

32:47 Yeah. Right. Yeah.

32:48 Um which, you know, we constantly get told, I mean like even this Lord of the Flies. I remember reading this book as a kid and going, oh gosh, blah blah blah.

32:56 Underneath the skin of every human is nature red in tooth and claw. Well, a bunch of kids did get stranded on a marine island many years ago, right?

33:10 A bunch of Pacifica boys, north of the Strait somewhere around there. And they’re stranded there for a year, right.

33:17 When they finally got picked up, those kids had formed the tightest bonds of anyone ever. They fully cooperated the whole time, had a garden running.

33:25 People actually, the harder you screw people, the more good comes out, which runs counter to the

33:33 narrative told by the Jehovah’s Witnesses, you know.

33:37 And if anything, the guys I was talking about who hooked me up with Weedle, they didn’t look like nice people.

33:45 They just acted like nice people when they had the opportunity.

33:59 And I was thinking, if criminals can be like this, why can’t religious people be like this? It just made me realise the whole thing is upside down.

34:15 And the Jehovah’s Witnesses could have done a better job of pretending they’re an organisation that loves light.

34:25 A bunch of stuff went down in the congregations I grew up in that anyone with eyes and ears open could see.

34:33 There was a whole bunch of evil in that organisation and people in positions of trust misused that power.

34:43 On the regular.

34:54 If you want to convince me everyone outside is evil, you better first convince me everyone inside is good.

35:02 And they’ve failed on both counts.

35:08 The math is pretty simple, isn’t it?

35:15 I want to ask about breaking the mental loop. How did you transition from believing Armageddon is around the corner

35:23 to actually planning a life and a future?

35:37 That was the hardest thing. When I first left it was a coin flip, it might all be true.

35:45 If it is, then living in the time of the end has a certain ride to it.

36:01 The conditioning that everything can stop at any moment really messes with your ability to conceive of the future.

36:19 I went through a huge chunk of my life not thinking there was a long term, making short-term decisions and also long-term ones at the same time.

36:35 I only in recent years got a handle on the idea that the future is real and it’s going to happen to me.

36:57 I’ve got ruined teeth I never dealt with because I didn’t think I’d be around long enough for it to matter.

37:15 I could fix my teeth or buy another guitar. I bought guitars. Now I’ve got 11 guitars and a bad smile.

37:36 That’s one of the biggest things that messed with my life without me even realising it.

37:54 What helped change your thinking about Armageddon? Did music, reading or stand-up play a role?

38:11 Growing up through the nuclear threat era, then 9/11 and global paranoia…

38:30 Jehovah doesn’t have a monopoly on ending the world. We can do it ourselves.

38:50 You can actually see world events unfolding. If there’s an Armageddon, we’ll probably cause it ourselves.

39:14 We’ve overtaken any divine force in destructive power.

39:22 Those religious narratives about divine destruction don’t really hold up anymore.

39:37 That “angel killing 185,000 people” story? That’s modern warfare numbers now.

39:52 Being raised in that mindset gives you a weird inoculation against fear of the end of the world.

40:07 Other people panic about World War 3. I’ve lived with that expectation my whole life.

40:16 There were even soldiers complaining about being told wars are for God.

40:52 Christian Zionism and nationalism are deeply tied to end-times thinking.

41:12 Those beliefs shape political actions in real ways.

41:38 There’s little incentive to fix systems if you believe collapse is the goal.

42:10 Jehovah’s Witnesses messed me up, but on the scale of cults they’re relatively small.

42:25 They don’t have the same level of political power as larger ideological systems.

42:43 That helps put things in perspective.

43:09 Christian nationalism and Zionism operate on a much larger scale.

43:23 They use similar systems of control, just with far greater reach and power.

43:27 And they genuinely believe they are doing God’s work.

43:34 Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

43:36 I just want to see the look on their faces when their plan works, right? Israel gets destroyed. The blood of the Jews flows into the sea. Blah blah blah.

43:44 Jesus comes down and says, “Hi, I’m Jesus. You might remember me. This is my dad, Jehovah.”

43:50 A lot of people are going to be disappointed when they find out God’s real name.

43:59 There’s been like, “Oh, that stupid little cult got one thing right.” That is the dude’s name.

44:07 One of the things cults often use are thought-stopping phrases to discourage critical thinking. Was there anything you had to unlearn, and what did you replace it with?

44:28 I guess in some ways, my karma ran over my dogma.

44:34 I wasn’t keen to replace one set of arbitrary rules with another.

44:43 I wanted to live life on a scientific basis—try things, measure results, adjust if needed.

44:51 If something works, it’s good. If it doesn’t, rethink it.

44:58 I didn’t want to install a different operating system.

45:06 I briefly looked at other religions and realised an imaginary friend is an imaginary friend.

45:13 Some are more controlling than others, but it’s still the same idea.

45:20 This might offend people, but to me it’s intellectual cowardice.

45:28 Handing over your thinking because it’s easier than deciding what’s right and wrong.

45:35 Learning ethics is hard, but worth it.

45:43 I remember being told as a kid, “The new system will be here by then.”

45:53 I was told that about school, university, everything.

46:08 “You won’t need high school. The new system will be here.”

46:21 Then I went to high school anyway.

46:27 Same for university—always deferred to Armageddon.

46:42 It becomes a way of not making life decisions at all.

46:57 I’m nearly 50 now—I’d have spent my life waiting for something that never comes.

47:13 If we build a better system, it’ll be humans who do it.

47:28 You were physically in but mentally out for a long time.

47:36 Music and reading helped develop your thinking, but it was already there.

47:45 Just a busy brain. Curious.

47:53 Curiosity is my favourite quality in people.

48:00 Everyone deserves a second chance, but uncurious people frustrate me.

48:08 People who don’t want to know things aren’t engaging in being human.

48:17 We’re supposed to be curious, restless, figuring things out.

48:23 That drive was always there in me.

48:33 If I’d been in a more complex religion, I might have stayed longer.

48:42 But Jehovah’s Witness doctrine is shallow—there’s no depth to explore.

48:50 No rich intellectual or spiritual depth to dig into.

49:04 So there was nowhere for me to go with it intellectually.

49:22 We’re getting to the end now—three questions we ask every guest.

49:34 If you could speak to yourself the day you left, what would you say?

49:45 You got this.

49:51 What supported you the most?

50:01 Art. All forms of it—painting, writing, comedy, music.

50:15 Creation is something you can lose yourself in completely.

50:26 You make something, and people respond to it immediately.

50:45 That feeling is real.

50:52 It got me through a lot.

50:58 Instead of waiting for God to fix everything, you create something yourself.

51:09 That’s a terrible way to live—waiting like that.

51:13 Creation is the opposite of that mindset.

51:19 What would you say to someone encountering a cult survivor?

51:35 It’s about empathy. Everyone deserves a way back.

51:55 Whether it’s crime or conditioning, people can return.

52:04 Remember they may be inexperienced in the wider world.

52:14 But also recognise their strength—they left something deeply controlling.

52:56 They need both empathy and respect.

53:14 Thank you for your honesty, humour, and insight.

53:29 These stories go deeper than just a stage performance.

53:41 If something resonated, slow down and reflect.

53:52 Unspinning is messy, not neat.

54:06 Until next time—keep questioning.

0:00 Welcome to tonight’s show. We are continuing on with our Jehovah’s Witness series. In this episode, we’re sitting down with someone who’s born into the Jehovah’s Witness community, often

0:08 abbreviated as JW. They’ll share what life looked like growing up inside the faith, the beliefs, the expectations, and the impact those early experiences

0:17 had on their sense of self. We’ll also talk about what it’s taken to untangle from that world, and the ongoing process of rebuilding, healing, and finding

0:25 solid ground beyond it. So, tonight we are interviewing Royden Gibbs. Hi everyone. Royden Gibbs grew up as a second generation member of a Jehovah’s

0:33 Witness family. In the early 1950s, his mother, grandmother, and father were recruited by Jehovah’s Witnesses and

0:41 became members. A decade later, Royden was born the youngest of five in a family fully immersed in the world of

0:48 Jehovah Witnesses. At the age of 15, he became a dedicated member and left school to become an enthusiastic and

0:56 committed full-time recruiter. In his early 20s, he became a worker at the National Headquarters for Jehovah’s

1:03 Witnesses in New Zealand, bringing him close contact with national and international leaders of the Jehovah’s

1:11 Witnesses. By the age of 26, Royden was burnt out and found himself, shamed, shunned, and ostracised by the only

1:20 community he had ever known. This plunged Royden into a dark period of addictions, depression, and despair,

1:27 followed by recovery and the creating of a new life. Royden is now in his 60s, and his life is very different from the one

1:34 he experienced in the first 26 years of his life. So Royden, can you give us a little update about yourself now?

1:43 Thank you, Joy. Yes. Um, as has just been mentioned, I’m in my 60s. I recently had my second birthday. Just a few weeks ago, I celebrated my 25th

1:52 wedding anniversary with my wife. And, uh, we’re quite keen to try for another 25. So, things are going well there.

1:57 We’ve had the pleasure of raising three children. Uh, two from a previous marriage of hers and a son of our own.

2:03 They’re all grown up and left home. Now we’re at home with the dog and the cat, but the kids are all close handy with their partners and our now six grandchildren who are all part of our

2:12 lives on a fairly regular basis. We um live a simple life. We’ve got a nice comfortable home with a beautiful garden which my wife puts a lot of work into

2:20 and I got a workshop of my own there that I potter away in. Professionally, I still work full-time. I’ve been for 25 years been in the learning and

2:27 development profession. I currently work with a company that takes me around the country running facilitating workshops for teams of people within different organizations basically helping them

2:35 learn useful stuff that helps them to do their jobs. So great keeps me occupied.

2:39 Can you give us a brief background of your experience in the Jehovah’s Witness cult?

2:44 The intro gave I guess the background as to being raised in a Jehovah’s Witness family. I was the youngest of five. So by the time I was born the family was

2:52 fully into it for over a decade. It was the only world I knew growing up. We had a pretty straightforward, you know, on the surface the life was uh there was,

3:00 you know, straightforward things in life. Um, you know, barbecues at home and mowing the lawn and looking after the chooks and going to school and doing all those things. But all of that

3:09 happened within very prescribed framework of a of Witness life.

3:16 So, in addition to those normal things, there was the abnormal things. There was being expected to go and knock on doors every weekend and other days, with the fear that, well, the hope that you weren’t on

3:24 the same street that one of your peers at school happened to be living on.

3:31 And as the era that I was growing up, there was incessant meeting. There was like a Monday night we would be at home preparing for the Tuesday night meeting and then we’d go to a Tuesday night

3:39 meeting and then Wednesday night we’d be at home preparing for the Thursday night meeting and then on a Thursday night we’d go to another meeting and then Friday night we’d be getting ready to go

3:47 door knocking on Saturday morning and Saturday morning we’d go door knocking and then Sunday we would go to another meeting and then do some more door knocking potentially.

3:55 So our life was very consumed by the Witness activities and practices and the beliefs.

4:04 I think the most fundamental thing was the them and us-ness of Witnesses, the sense that we were part of a very special community of people who understood something that no one else was prepared to accept.

4:13 It wasn’t so much that other people just didn’t get it. It’s just they weren’t prepared to hear it. And so we lived in this closed community.

4:20 The promise was that, you know, I would grow up and the world would end at Armageddon and all the other people would get killed and then we’d be left and we’d get to live

4:27 forever on earth and it would all be a paradise and you could do all the things you ever wanted to do.

4:32 In hindsight now it was a fairly distorted view of life in the universe and of your neighbours and people around you, but that was the norm.

4:39 That permeated everything we did and that them and us-ness was a significant factor growing up.

4:51 Interviewer: So talking about the point that decided to leave, what was the catalyst moment that led you to leaving?

4:59 Royden: The catalyst was the Witnesses. I didn’t decide to leave at all. I was a very committed devoted Witness as a young person.

5:07 I left school at 15 to become a full-time recruiter and to devote my life to door knocking basically.

5:15 I’ve worked out since in my late teens and early 20s I probably spent about 7,000 hours knocking on people’s doors and knocked on 30,000 doors.

5:24 Rule of odds meant I probably got in front of about 10,000 people, of which maybe 1500 I had in-depth conversations with about what I thought they should believe.

5:33 So I was highly committed and focused on that and worked my way through the organisation with different roles, eventually ending up at headquarters.

5:42 That put me around leaders locally, and international leaders would visit as well, so I was very immersed in it.

5:50 But by my early 20s I became decidedly disoriented and depressed. I initially thought it was depression.

5:58 Because of the mindset of Witnesses, the fault of course was all mine. I obviously wasn’t doing something right, so I just worked harder and harder and burnt myself out.

6:14 I left headquarters thinking I needed to be back out on the street, but things didn’t improve. I became more depressed, more anxious, more disoriented.

6:22 I started behaving in ways that weren’t in keeping with the Witnesses or with what I wanted either.

6:30 I started taking trips into town, visiting places I shouldn’t have visited, nightclubs and the like, and that distressed me.

6:38 I went to the elders and said something is wrong with me, I’m spiritually sick, you need to help me.

6:46 They tried to help me, but things escalated.

6:54 Eventually I ended up making use of the services of an entrepreneurial young lady on the street, which really threw me.

7:02 I confessed everything to the elders. Initially they tried to help, but eventually they said they could not have me in the congregation.

7:17 I was disfellowshipped just before my 26th birthday.

7:24 That felt like being executed or terminated. I was traumatised.

7:35 The choice to leave wasn’t a choice. I was abandoned.

7:45 There is a phrase now, pimo and pome. I was physically out but mentally still in.

7:55 I still believed they were right and I was wrong, and I thought God would eventually fix me and I could return.

8:16 Interviewer: Did you have any support during the exit process or was it a totally solitary journey?

8:22 Royden: I think solitary is the word. I stayed briefly with my parents, but it was very uncomfortable for everyone.

8:30 I ended up getting accommodation by myself.

8:38 I couldn’t live with “worldly people” according to what I’d been taught, even though I was out.

8:47 I ended up flatting alone, which was lonely and isolating.

9:28 The one connection I made was with a brother who had been pushed out years earlier.

9:37 I hadn’t spoken to him for about 6 years, but I found him again.

9:46 He was the only person who really understood what I was going through.

10:10 Interviewer: What were the most challenging everyday tasks?

10:18 Royden: Finding somewhere to live was the biggest immediate challenge.

10:34 My employment ended, so I had to rebuild everything from scratch.

10:50 I moved into hospitality work fairly quickly, but I had no financial reserves at all.

11:11 I had no money, no support, nothing accumulated from those years of door knocking.

11:20 Even simple decisions about time and daily life felt unfamiliar and chaotic.

11:33 Interviewer: How did you untangle ideology from personal values?

11:47 Royden: That process was gradual over many years.

11:55 A key idea I came across was that we act ourselves into new ways of thinking rather than thinking our way into action.

12:19 Real experiences with people slowly changed my understanding.

12:38 I discovered that people I was told were “bad” were often kind and supportive.

12:55 One woman I worked with provided real friendship and support while I was struggling.

13:21 Those experiences slowly eroded the beliefs I had grown up with.

13:45 Later, the internet became a turning point.

13:54 I found ex-Witnesses online, including someone who had worked at headquarters in New York.

14:10 That helped me realise I wasn’t alone in questioning things.

14:25 Interviewer: How do you handle triggers?

14:38 Royden: They don’t happen as much now, but in the early years they were strong.

14:56 Events like war or earthquakes would trigger deep fear responses.

15:12 My wife helped calm me during one earthquake when I became overwhelmed.

15:28 I realised those reactions came from childhood teachings and imagery.

15:44 I have worked through those experiences as they have come up.

15:50 Today, the deeper themes that still arise are around rejection and abandonment.

15:54 And so um uh there can there can be situations that pop up for me around that can trigger that sense of I’m being

16:02 rejected again and abandoned. And and like I said earlier, you know, when I experienced that as a Witness, the kind of metaphors or analogies that I’d grown up with is that’s that’s kind of like an

16:11 execution, you know, it’s kind of like you’ve been not just banished, but you were being got rid of. But I have certainly learned some tools to help me with that. And that there’s there’s

16:19 there’s um you know, it’s I think it goes back to accumulated experience. I now know that that’s not reality and

16:25 that I’ve had experiences of reality and that I can when the triggers arise remind myself that that’s not where I am

16:33 now and that’s not what I think. And I did a period of over 5 years of with a trained therapist, right?

16:40 And I remember that was one of the things that she would often say when we would recount experiences that I’ve had and she just helped me to learn that phrase. She said, you know, she would

16:49 say, I’d describe a situation, how I’d felt about it, and she’d say to me, Royden, but you’re not there now, are you? And it was that ability to learn how to tell myself, but I’m not there

16:57 now. I’m here. Um, and over time, I’ve learned to be able to remind myself and also remind myself that there’s a

17:06 different reality and that that’s the one I have now. But it it’s yeah, it takes a lot of work over a long period of time and um it’s not comfortable when

17:14 you’re working through that. It can be really quite painful to work through that. And I’m really grateful for other people. I know the last 27 years I’ve been with my wife. I’m so grateful that

17:23 times, you know, we we help each other, but she certainly helped me through some of those without a doubt those moments of being able to process where’s that

17:30 come from and what’s that mean and um get into the present.

17:34 I really like that. It’s kind of like you’re identifying where it’s coming from, what it is, kind of naming it, and then putting it in its proper

17:43 context and then being in the now cuz that’s where you are.

17:48 Yeah, absolutely.

17:54 I love that. Who is the person you are today compared to the person you were inside the group?

18:02 I think that’s a really quite a good question. Um, Alisa, cuz it’s this is something I have thought about over time and, you know, in more recent times

18:10 because it strikes me how dramatically different I am in many ways. There’s some fundamental things about me that are still me in my disposition

18:18 and the like, but there’s some dramatic contrasts. If you had met me as a 20-year-old or a 21-year-old, you would

18:26 have met a very dogmatic, rules-based uh very kind of intense young man.

18:34 Even amongst other Witnesses, there was a guy I used to recruit with. We were partnered up and worked around different places together and he

18:41 eventually left as well. And we used to talk about that. I remember telling my wife once about me and it makes the Witnesses I was a bit more intense than

18:50 most, I think. And he used to say we used to find it so frustrating because we’d flat together and he said I could never have a conversation with Royden about a topic without him having

18:58 to quote things all the time. You know, there was always a scripture and a verse and a quote from a Witness publication that gave the answer. I had no opinion

19:07 of my own. It was just the book says this, the rules say that. So that was who I was. Now I’m decidedly

19:13 enamoured by chaos and doubt and really enjoy it.

19:18 There’s nothing more interesting than the fact that I haven’t got a clue.

19:26 I just have a curiosity. Awe and wonder are the fundamental things that really matter to me now.

19:34 We live in an awesomely wonderful universal reality, whatever it is. But at the same time, it’s mysteriously completely incomprehensible.

19:42 There’s no way to fully work it out.

19:53 And that’s fine. I’m comfortable with it and revel in it in many ways.

20:00 Going back to what I mentioned before, as a young Witness with all of the intensity and prescription about how life should be and what the answers are, I was a decidedly fearful, anxious, mixed-up young man.

20:17 That’s not who I am now. I’m very comfortable in my own skin and at ease with life and who I am.

20:25 I think that’s a massive difference. The level of peace and contentment I have now I couldn’t have imagined as a young Witness.

20:38 I didn’t have the language to comprehend what it could mean to be okay with yourself.

20:46 So, what passions or hobbies have you reclaimed or discovered for yourself that the group would never have allowed?

20:54 I don’t think anything specifically sticks out. It’s interesting because as a young Witness I expected I was going to live forever

21:03 on earth. So I could have all the interests in the world, just not yet because I had to wait until the new world.

21:10 One day I’d get to do anything I wanted. Part of the frustration once I got out was realising I’d missed time.

21:19 I could have been doing those things already.

21:30 One of the things I really value now is my love of learning and curiosity and the freedom to explore things.

21:44 I’m a bit of a learning nerd and I’m constantly exploring new ideas and thinking.

21:53 Growing up, if someone offered me something to read at the door, I would never take it because it wasn’t okay.

22:00 In the early days after leaving, while still in the midst of alcohol and chaos, I worked in a hotel in Christchurch opposite the public library.

22:13 During split shifts I would go to the library and work my way through philosophy books and anything that caught my attention.

22:27 I don’t remember half of what I read, but it pushed me forward.

22:35 There was a thrill to pulling books off shelves that once felt forbidden.

22:43 I’ve never let go of that curiosity.

22:54 It’s different for someone raised in a cult versus recruited into one.

23:03 The only thing I could really go back to was what I’d had before.

23:06 I’ve looked at it like an upcycling process.

23:12 There were things in those first 25 years that had some value and merit. A lot was harmful and got discarded, but some things I’ve managed to reclaim and make my own.

23:31 The policy of disfellowshipping is a central pillar of the JDub structure.

23:36 How have you managed to build a chosen family outside the organisation?

23:44 That’s something I’ve definitely done.

23:49 I still have two siblings in the JDubs and they’ve continued shunning me throughout my life.

24:01 They mostly only turn up at funerals and then there might be a brief conversation or a nudge about coming back.

24:16 For the first seven years after leaving, drugs and alcohol kept me going.

24:26 By the time I was 33 I was in a very dark place and considering ending my life.

24:41 But eventually things began to change and my recovery journey started.

24:50 Before that, there were still people around me who provided some form of community and camaraderie.

25:06 Once I surfaced from that dark period, I became very proactive about building healthy community around myself.

25:14 I’ve been really blessed with a loving relationship, family, grandchildren, friends, and meaningful relationships.

25:23 I’ve experienced friendship in ways I never could have imagined as a Witness.

25:30 As a Witness, there was this illusion that the brotherhood was completely unique and couldn’t exist elsewhere.

25:39 But when that same brotherhood throws you out and refuses to look at you again, eventually the illusion breaks.

25:44 The bubble bursts.

25:52 Now I have real people in my life and real relationships.

25:56 Along that subject of relationships, many leaving the JDubs lose their entire social and familial network overnight.

26:04 How did you navigate that initial void of connection?

26:10 In the very early weeks and months, I simply took on more work at the hotel.

26:18 I discovered there was a bar that stayed open all night and that became my social world.

26:36 I basically lived at the bar and met people from all kinds of backgrounds.

26:49 That became my community for a while and I learned a lot about people and life there.

27:06 We are all a mixed bag. There’s good and bad in everyone.

27:13 There were special people from that time I still remember fondly.

27:22 We’d sit up all night listening to Leonard Cohen and looking after each other while both struggling.

27:37 Eventually I entered residential treatment for alcoholism and addictions for six weeks.

27:44 That introduced me to recovery communities and other people rebuilding their lives after trauma.

27:59 But after a couple of years, I realised I didn’t want to fall into another them-and-us mentality.

28:08 I didn’t want it to become “us recovered addicts versus everyone else.”

28:17 So I became proactive about expanding my world and relationships.

28:33 I still stay connected with people in recovery because I want to support others too.

28:42 But I deliberately broadened my community through study, work, Toastmasters, and professional associations.

29:01 Did the pendulum swing the other way where you ended up saying yes to everything?

29:08 Without a doubt.

29:16 I would volunteer for everything.

29:24 My wife helped me recognise that tendency over time.

29:40 If someone needed help, I would instantly say yes.

29:53 One of the biggest things I had to learn was how to say no.

30:01 In a cult you’re conditioned to be agreeable, compliant, and always of service.

30:08 Learning to say no and feel comfortable doing it has been a major journey for me.

30:09 And uh I feel pretty good that I’ve made some progress with that one. Yeah. But it took a bit of work.

30:14 How did you handle the transition from the belief that Arman is just around the corner to planning for a long-term future? immediate responses Alicia to that is I think that was gradual as well. I think that was quite gradual and it’s like I was mentioned it’s messy.

30:30 The recovery from a cult is it’s not a straight line. It’s spaghetti and so you get triggered by things and it whips us back in at times and etc. And like I said I’ve shared before of experiences you know you know you watch the news and something happens and it triggers those memories because you were conditioned by it.

30:44 I’m grateful to say that that doesn’t tend to happen now. uh you know like uh uh I’m pretty comfortable with that kind of trigger. I’ve been able to uh not only experientially work my way through that but now also intellectually really work me way through it. But I’ve had to replace that with other stuff. I think

31:02 that’s the thing, you know, and I’ve done some, you know, my own desire to learn and studying things and and um you know, just studying what science can tell us about the universe and the length of time we’ve been around and the context of you know, all of those things kind of puts makes those stories that

31:18 you got told seem quite pitiful, right?

31:21 Cuz there’s so much us there’s so much other stuff that’s a lot more valid and reliable to look at. It’s phenomenally more awesome.

31:30 Absolutely. And so, so I guess over time replaced what I now see as quite pitiful beliefs. And I say that deliberately.

31:38 They’re quite puny beliefs. They’re kind of built on very simplistic, naive thinking. Yeah.

31:45 That’s used to manipulate people with a far bigger understanding, I believe, and bigger

31:52 sense of life, the universe, and everything. Yeah.

31:55 And um and I continue to pursue that, you know, like I’m keen to learn those things. I was just watching a thing on YouTube last night. These guys went out into the desert and kind of mapped out

32:02 with LED lights, you know, the history of time of the universe and then spanned back to show how long, you know, how big it is. And then, you know, the the one,

32:10 you know, the kind of the five cm at the end, which is how long we’ve been around as humans. And watching things like that just changes your whole perspective. You

32:18 know, somebody’s little story about, you know, in 1914 someone turned up and that happened and then in 1920 this, you know, it just all becomes nonsense.

32:27 Yeah. and trivy trivial.

32:28 Like a huge part of your journey has been um through educating yourself and um kind of learning new ways of being on the planet and that’s done through learning.

32:41 Yeah. Yeah. And I think it is I had the privilege a number of years ago to share my story in a context around

32:48 rehabilitation and um the person who was the lead of that project was who’s passed away now. They were a professor of of medicine and a leader in the field

32:56 of rehabilitation and they make that point that rehabilitation is a learning process. Yeah.

33:02 And they were looking in the medical sector. You know, it’s not a medical event. It’s a learning process. Yeah.

33:06 But I think it’s the same when we’ve been in a cult to recover or to rehabilitate or habilitate

33:13 some of us who rehabilitating. In other words, finding our home in the world. It is a learning process. And I I’m biased because I, you know, that’s my profession is learning. But that’s what intrigues me. I think that’s what drawn me professionally as well is just that intrigue with how do you and I

33:29 particularly as adults make sense of our lives and our activities and how do we Yeah. And and and part of it for me has

33:37 been discovering that I have the ability to narrate the story for myself. Early on in my my my addictions recovery, I had a a mentor, a support person who who

33:45 I remember talking to one night and I was in a relationship at the time that didn’t last and and he said, “How’s it going?” Oh, it’s not going so well. I don’t know what to do. And I remember he

33:53 said to me at that time, he said, “Well, Rod,” and he said, “There’s no instruction book for that relationship.” He says, “You have to write it yourself.” Yeah.

34:00 It’s up to you. And I think that’s part of that learning process of discovering you have to you have to write your own script as you go. Yeah. You have agency.

34:08 Yeah. And yeah, it’s quite a tricky journey for sure. JDubs famously don’t celebrate birthdays or Christmas. What was the

34:16 first forbidden celebration that you participated in and what were the emotions attached to it? This is one of my favorite questions.

34:23 Interesting. Yes. Um yeah, it’s not just birthdays and stuff. The one one of the things that strikes me about my youth, about my childhood, there was no extracurricular activity around school

34:32 either. So no after school sports, not that I was into sport, but but I like the arts and stuff. And so there was I remember once in my teenage years, I

34:40 managed to get involved with the school production. And I was allowed to go for one night to assist the lighting, but the other nights were meeting nights.

34:46 And I had to tell the team I can’t come that night to participate in the instru camps. Never went on school camps. And I remember one little country school I

34:54 lived at. You know, two school two classroom country school. All the big class went to camp. I stayed behind with the juniors for the for the week. Crazy

35:02 stuff. But as we’re against those events, I uh exited. It was just about the time of my 26th birthday, which was February. I think the first real pay,

35:12 you know, you know, event I went to did was was Christmas at the end of that year. I ended up in a temporary relationship with a woman and she took

35:20 me home with her f to her family for Christmas dinner. I remember sitting there thinking this is a Christmas dinner and uh yeah, that was the first kind of like yeah for that. Yeah. Her

35:30 mother was Lebanese. The spread was really good. It was a lovely food. Okay.

35:34 It was really good and it was a simple little you know family event. But beyond that, those things have once again I’m really grateful to my wife, you know, 27

35:42 years ago we met and that was just before my birthday and she had just missed my it was just after my birthday. Yeah.

35:48 And when I started talking to her and explained things at the time she had two children of her own before we had our son. Uh it was you weeks of meeting and

35:55 I went around to their she she organized a birthday for me, a birthday party for me.

36:01 Yeah. to help me celebrate and and so over the years she’s really helped me to kind of value that and I I do enjoy birthdays now and sharing and all that

36:09 kind of stuff and we have our own you know and Christmas etc. And you know we don’t have Christmas so much as a religious thing but it is a it’s a it’s

36:16 a it’s a I mean it’s a cultural so social marker social marker and I think my observation

36:24 is is that people who do celebrate Christmas you know which is a high majority of people every family has their own version of what that means for them and and that’s how how it works. So

36:32 I’ve come to value what it means for our family. Yeah.

36:38 Oh it’s very interesting. So, I I want to talk about regaining your your bodily autonomy and and safety.

36:46 Have you found any specific grounding techniques or physical practices that help calm your nervous system when you feel a trauma response coming on?

36:55 The immediate things I think of are the fairly obvious ones, I guess, that everybody’s familiar with. You can’t beat your lungs. They’re good things, lungs. And, uh, remembering to use your

37:04 lungs is really helpful. And I’ve certainly learned to do that over the years to breathe to just pause and be really conscious of your breathing. I

37:11 think that’s indispensable. It has been for me to remember to do that posture as well. The other thing I found really helpful is selft talk and little things

37:19 that have come to me. There have been pivotable moments in my life where I’ve had little realizations not little realizations quite deep profound realizations for myself. And one

37:27 realization I had at a a significant turning point was that sense of awareness that whoever I am, no more, no less, in any given moment of time, is all I need to be in that moment of time.

37:38 And that’s been a mantra that I’ve kept through for many years now is that whoever you are, no more, no less, is all you need to be in this moment. So

37:47 when the anxiety surfaces or whatever or the confusion arrives or I become disoriented around things, I’ve I’ve found things like that mantra or

37:55 whatever you want to call it or that just kind of like selft talk to tell me I’m okay right now. And once again that’s experiential because I’ve got a

38:02 I’ve got a memory of the fact that there have been past times when I’ve experienced that that despite everything going wrong it’s actually I’m okay.

38:11 Another thing that um you know that preceded that was I came across in my reading you know I used to go to the library and find books to read and I

38:18 came across this little statement. I don’t know where this comes from now I said but it stuck with me and the statement said you cannot lose what truly belongs to you even if you throw it away.

38:27 You have the best statements.

38:29 Well and that but that stuck with me and that’s got me through. you know when I thought everything was getting lost you know I’ve been able to anchor myself on

38:38 those little anchors that I found that was good self-t talk for me you know you can’t lose you cannot lose what truly

38:45 belongs to you even if you throw it away it’s if it’s yours it’s yours and so that sense of intrinsic identity and

38:52 self I’ve learned to hold on to for dear life cuz it is dear life and uh to really trust it but you know on an

39:00 everyday basis I’ve learned that it’s good to get active not in a compulsive way, but to do stuff. You know, I’ve got a workshop at home and I like, you know,

39:08 making stuff and I got a lovely garden at home and my wife does most of the work in the garden, but I try my best to help out and I do enjoy getting my hands

39:15 dirty. So, those things and the other thing that simple level I’ve, you know, playlists of music, you know, there’s, you know, I still listen to Leonard

39:22 Cohen. I just I don’t need the Jack Daniels and Dope anymore.

39:25 Yeah. But I can listen to Leonard Cohen or you know there’s I got a playlist of Johnny Cash you know the revisited

39:32 versions he did and uh you know like yeah even a bit of Nick Cave or someone can get me into that into that mood of just feeling tuned into my emotions and

39:42 every now and again I’ll do I’ll listen to one of those playlists and I’ll have a bit of a ball and a cry and come out of it feeling a hell of a lot better

39:49 because sometimes we just need to you know let it flow and I found things music helps me tap into that. Yeah, that they’re helpful things that I found.

39:57 Great. We’ve got a few final questions.

40:00 If you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say? I would say Reiden, trust yourself.

40:07 Yeah, trust yourself. Uh, and it’s that other saying that that I mentioned before that no matter who you are, no more, no less, that’s all you need to be right now, mate.

40:16 Yeah.

40:16 And I know in hindsight that that was what’s going on. And so, yeah, if I was to go back to the early ro and I would say, look, you’re okay, mate. You’re not

40:23 flawed. You’re not unclean. You’re not defective. You’re not unacceptable.

40:29 You’re okay, dude. You’re okay. And wherever you’re at, that’s all you need to be right now. Yeah.

40:35 The next bit will come next. And trust yourself.

40:37 Uh, you know, and very much trust yourself cuz that’s at the heart of the kind of the antidote to cults. Cults will tell you not to trust yourself.

40:45 Exactly.

40:46 That you must you need them to tell you what’s right.

40:49 So I I treasure that deeply. I trust myself now. I know what I need to know.

40:54 M that’s great. That’s great. So, if you if you had to name one thing that supported you the most throughout your recovery, what would that be?

41:02 Um I think jot something down to prompt me with this. Let me have a think. I think it’s that sense of that I’m okay. But I

41:10 I think at the heart of it has been a deep intrinsic desire to be me and to be a healthy me.

41:16 Right? that that there was, you know, uh I’ll credit my mother with this, despite the fact that she was trapped in the

41:24 Jehovah’s Witness world her whole life, you know, you know, right to the end of her life and rather unpleasant trap really distorted distorted her life

41:34 significantly. But I remember we were young people. She quite liked novel things and she she got a poster of the the desert which is not Max poetry

41:42 desert. It was hanging on the wall in our house for a period of time. I don’t think it’s soaked through. There’s a little phrase in there. I’m going to go for another we quote for you. Sorry. The

41:49 thing is there’s a little phrase and I paraphrase it’s slightly different to what how Max wrote it, but it says you’re a child of the universe less than

41:57 the trees and the stars. You belong here. Yeah.

42:00 And I think that’s at the heart of it for me. Somewhere inside of me, there’s been a part of me that knew I did belong here and I just need to stick with it.

42:10 And now I’m very convinced of that.

42:12 Early days, it was hidden and I didn’t really understand it. But I think there was something in me that said you you’re supposed to be here, Royden, and there’s there’s good reason to be here.

42:20 Yeah. Yeah.

42:21 That’s perfect. What would you like people to know about people leaving cult people needing leaving? I would have valued more support from people who understood what I’d been experiencing.

42:31 That would have been nice, you know, but I learned from what I what happened. I learned from what happened. But um I guess it goes back to that same thing.

42:38 If if if you cross paths with someone who’s left a cult, it’s likely to be quite messy for them. It’s likely to be quite confusing for them. It’s going to

42:45 be traumatic in some ways for them. Let them be where they’re at. Don’t try and fix them. Don’t try and correct them.

42:52 Don’t try and and put them right. Let them be where they’re at. Because wherever they’re at, whoever they are at that point in time is all they need to

43:00 be, but be there with them. Be there with them. Let them know that you accept them and you’re prepared to accept wherever they’re at. Because I know in the, you

43:08 know, first decade of me exiting the the cult world, my thinking at times was really quite wonky. Yeah.

43:14 And they’re likely to have some wonky thinking. Accept them. Yeah.

43:18 Let them know they’re okay wherever they’re at and time will time will be there with them as they make the journey.

43:25 Yeah. That that that kind of compassion is very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

43:29 Okay. So, uh that’s us. We’re going to wrap up this episode of Unspun. A huge thanks to you, Royden. I’m sure your

43:36 story your story will inspire and give hope to to many people. Thank you for spending this time with us. We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re

43:44 grateful you trusted us enough to listen. And spinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to feel. If anything came up for you today,

43:52 please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to.

43:56 You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us.

44:03 until next time. This is unspun.

0:04 Welcome to this series of interviews exploring lived experiences within the Jehovah’s Witness faith. Throughout these conversations, we’ll be hearing personal stories of belief, belonging,

0:14 questioning, and life beyond the organization.

0:18 Here today to unravel the threads of their cult recovery is a warm welcome to Jen. Hi, Jen.

0:24 Hi, thank you for having me. So good to have you here.

0:34 Um,

0:36 so um just a side note for ease of listening, we’ll be abbreviating Jehovah’s Witness to JDub or JW during

0:44 this series. Um, so so cool to have you on board, Jen. Um, as far as your story,

0:52 I thought it would be really cool just if you could tell us a little bit about yourself now so we get a picture of who you are post JDub.

1:02 Okay. So, I’m a nana of four beautiful grandchildren. Um, I work full-time in

1:10 health and safety and HR, so lots of people based um, work. I’m also a

1:17 trained end of life dweller. So that’s working with people that are coming to end of life and giving them support during that process. Um I’m part of a group called NOA. So no one dies alone.

1:29 Uh and I’m also trained in Raike and in massage. So while I’m doing uh HR and

1:37 health and safety now as I’m retirement age, that’s where I’m planning to go with my life is to move it into those things.

1:44 Um Awesome. I have a little dog who’s my I would call him my service dog, but he

1:52 hasn’t got the proper title, but he’s a great companion. Yeah.

1:56 And I have a good base of friends and a really great social life. So, yeah, got a good life. Thank you.

2:05 Can you um give us a brief background of your experience in the Jehovah’s Witness cult?

2:12 So, I was born into the cult. Um, my mom and dad were both Jehovah’s Witnesses.

2:17 They came into it, my mom was a solo mom. Uh, she had two boys, one to her

2:25 first husband and another one through a relationship. And the person involved um refused to marry her even though she she

2:33 didn’t tell him she was actually pregnant with my brother. And she was very lucky cuz we’re talking about an

2:39 era where solo mothers were not and and ones that had had children out of wedlock were not very socially acceptable. But she had really close

2:48 in-laws who kept tight around her. But she still felt really lonely. Sitting at a bus stop one day and this woman starts to talk to her about love and joy and

2:57 support and Jesus and God. and it she was extremely vulnerable and it gave her a security blanket for how she was

3:05 feeling at the time. So she joined the Jehovah’s Witness faith.

3:17 My father was brought up Presbyterian and Anglican. Uh he was kept at home to look after my nana who was quite sick. And so then eventually when the war came around he

3:26 became a conscientious objector and refused to go to war.

3:38 As a conscientious objector in New Zealand, they were actually put into a camp in the North Island.

3:44 And while he was in there, there was Jehovah’s Witnesses in there because they abstained from war. And again, he was in a very vulnerable position and

3:52 they pulled him to being a Jehovah’s Witness.

4:01 He later met my mom and they decided to move from the North Island down to North Canterbury and start a Jehovah’s Witness church.

4:15 So they started it.

4:24 Dad was also part of Bethel, the central organizational group.

4:27 So they moved down. One of my half brothers followed, but the older one stayed up north.

4:36 Then mom and dad had me. My first memories were going to meetings, not really understanding them.

4:55 Over time, you get inducted into the belief system. You’re told what you’re allowed to do and not do.

5:08 Eventually, you start to believe you can’t do anything outside of it. You don’t have free choice.

5:26 I had a questioning mind, but that was against the rules.

5:42 There was a lot of fear instilled. My parents were very strict in their beliefs.

5:58 I became a people pleaser and got baptized at a large convention.

6:24 I passed the tests with flying colors because I believed I had to be perfect.

6:43 I started pioneering—going door to door—at around age 15.

6:58 Eventually, I began questioning how people were treated.

7:13 I knew something that happened to me was wrong, but no one acknowledged it.

7:36 I started rebelling—drinking, going out—and was caught.

7:51 I was publicly reproved and shamed at a meeting.

8:04 That became the first step toward leaving.

8:22 I realized I could be human outside of the system.

8:30 I got a full-time job and met my future husband.

8:52 Because I was with a non-believer, I was disfellowshipped.

9:14 It was awful—overnight I lost my entire support system.

9:28 I became dependent on my partner and his family.

9:37 That environment was also toxic, with emotional and verbal abuse.

9:55 I repeated patterns from my upbringing without realizing it.

10:21 The support I found didn’t truly understand what I had gone through.

10:37 My vulnerability was manipulated.

10:55 Many things I do now would have been completely forbidden.

11:10 Education, independence, and autonomy were discouraged, especially for women.

11:39 Abuse was often justified within the belief system.

11:52 The biggest challenge after leaving was decision-making.

12:07 I had to relearn how to trust myself.

12:20 Everything had been controlled—beliefs, clothing, behavior.

12:46 Fear of Armageddon was used to enforce obedience.

13:02 It wasn’t until much later in life I realized I could make my own decisions.

13:30 It took decades to understand how deeply ingrained everything was.

13:39 I left at 15 and I’m now 66.

13:53 That shows how long trauma can last.

14:21 I began untangling my identity by experimenting—sometimes recklessly.

14:47 I pushed boundaries and explored life intensely.

15:10 It was a reaction to being restricted for so long.

15:24 Music and dancing became expressions of freedom.

15:40 I didn’t understand the signals I was sending or the situations I was entering.

15:56 I learned through difficult experiences.

16:11 It was about testing limits and learning from consequences.

16:24 I also didn’t realize the impact of abuse I had experienced within the cult.

16:25 And I didn’t I had shut that in a box and put the lid on it and I had a really big padlock on it from from an emotional perspective.

16:34 Yeah.

16:34 Um and I didn’t realize also the effect that was in some of that in the background was having as well. So there

16:42 was a lot of behavior of not feeling worthy also. So there was some of that driving some of that kind

16:49 of wild behavior as well. It’s taken me a long time to click to how that all fits together.

16:55 Yeah, for sure. And I’m I’m wondering about um when you started to untangle all of that.

17:05 Um it’s I think it’s been a journey. Yeah, I think it’s been a lifelong journey. It’s layers.

17:13 Yeah,

17:14 when they say unlayer the onion, it’s not wrong. It is one layer at a time.

17:18 And you think sometimes you unlayer a bit and you go, “Oh, yeah, that’s it.” And then something happens and you go,

17:23 “Oh, maybe that wasn’t it. That was just the first layer of that bit.”

17:26 Um, and it’s okay. The thing I would say when you start to untangle yourself is get really good support. When I left,

17:37 I didn’t understand enough. There wasn’t support outside because I didn’t even know anybody else that had got out of the cult at that stage.

17:43 And so while I had my partner’s family around me, they didn’t understand my behavior. They didn’t understand what was going on.

17:52 So that was no real support in untangling.

18:00 Right. I’m trying to think where my probably in all honesty,

18:09 my daughter was a victim of a violent crime and during that time I was helping support her, I was actually falling to pieces inside myself and I didn’t realize.

18:24 And once at the end of about two years after a traumatic incident, you hit that point where you fall apart.

18:32 At that two-year mark, I was sitting in meetings, running meetings in my job, running an office—high functioning.

18:42 Yeah.

18:43 And I was sitting in a meeting and I’d just burst into tears and I’d be like,

18:46 “Why am I crying? I don’t know why I’m crying.”

18:48 So, I went to the counselor that my daughter had been to.

18:53 And that’s probably the first in-depth untangling I started,

18:58 was to actually recognize that all of this stuff that had happened behind me was actually having an effect.

19:08 Emotionally, mentally, spiritually,

19:10 and definitely physically.

19:20 And that’s one thing—your body holds the score.

19:20 Yes.

19:20 And I cannot say that enough.

19:26 You might be high functioning in front of people,

19:38 but your body will be holding that in some form or another.

19:44 And the sooner you get support and help, the healthier, happier, more joyful your life can be.

19:49 Because you don’t realize until you start untangling it in depth.

19:58 Recovery isn’t linear. It’s a lifelong journey.

20:05 When you’re going through everyday life now, how do you handle triggers?

20:15 I have a psychologist I’m seeing now. I used to avoid triggers completely.

20:24 If something came up, I’d shove it back down and keep busy.

20:32 Overeating, undereating, always busy, never still.

20:41 High functioning at work, studying intensely.

20:49 For example, I worked 30 hours and studied 30 hours a week. I had an A+ average.

20:56 Overachieving—but it was masking.

21:01 It gave me language for things I felt but couldn’t name.

21:14 But it was still a distraction.

21:22 Totally masking.

21:27 People didn’t know anything was going on because I appeared capable and organized.

21:36 Everything I did was a distraction.

21:46 A lot of people leave and just shut that chapter completely.

22:01 That’s a common thread with survivors.

22:10 It can take years before realizing you need to deal with it.

22:25 Now I’m working on not hiding from triggers.

22:32 Because you can’t heal if you avoid them.

22:37 It shows up in the body—autoimmune issues, stress responses.

22:51 I’ve learned grounding techniques.

22:59 One is the “butterfly” method—cross your thumbs and tap your chest.

23:04 It slows your heart rate and brings you into the present moment.

23:17 Then you can ask: where am I feeling this? Why?

23:33 And decide what support you need.

23:47 Sit in the emotion. Don’t avoid it.

23:58 It can be scary, but it’s necessary.

24:07 Another method is tensing and releasing muscle groups.

24:24 It helps move you out of fight-or-flight.

24:32 There’s also freeze—common for cult survivors.

24:45 Tools help you process instead of shutting down.

25:04 Some use visualization like armor, but that can also reinforce isolation.

25:19 Isolation is a big pattern.

25:27 So I use those tools carefully.

25:35 There’s also “fawn”—people pleasing as a trauma response.

25:49 Agreeing just to keep the peace.

26:09 I’ve caught myself doing that recently.

26:20 It comes from fear of abandonment and not feeling worthy.

26:36 Even small feedback can feel deeply personal.

26:53 You agree even when you don’t, just to be “good.”

27:02 It’s very common among cult survivors.

27:22 It can make you a great team player—but you need boundaries.

27:46 Otherwise, you lose yourself.

27:55 JDubs are taught to see outsiders as “worldly.”

28:10 Women are taught to be obedient and never say no.

28:25 This puts women in dangerous situations.

28:43 It does make them vulnerable.

28:50 There are ongoing inquiries into abuse within the organization.

29:08 My own experience was within the family home.

29:25 It happened very young, before I even had language for it.

29:32 I didn’t understand it until much later in counseling.

29:42 I minimized it because I was taught to.

29:48 My second experience involved an elder.

29:56 We were sent away with him to conventions.

30:04 We were told it was okay, but we couldn’t talk about it.

30:11 And also instilled fear not to talk about it because we were the ones that were wrong, so we kind of encouraged it and it was our fault, right?

30:19 And that sticks. And the problem is within the JDub cult, when anybody—if this happens—and they bring it to the elders, you have to take a witness.

30:36 So when you go and talk to them about it, you have to take a witness. So if you’re told that, there’s no way that you would go in front of them.

30:44 Right?

30:45 So you have to have the perpetrator and the witness in the room with you.

30:51 Even in court, if you can’t face the perpetrator, they will put a screen up to protect your vulnerability.

31:05 But in a supposedly Christian and loving environment, they put you in the same room and tell you that you have to have someone else that saw it happen.

31:14 No.

31:15 And blame you at the same time.

31:17 That is really shocking to hear. I’m really sorry you went through that.

31:25 Is this something that affects only women, or children as well?

31:40 It affects children as well. It affects both sexes, and people who are gay—anything outside heterosexual norms.

31:56 There is no support. It doesn’t go to the police.

31:59 They hide perpetrators within the group. This is what the commission of inquiry has found.

32:07 Elders were told to destroy evidence.

32:17 This isn’t just my experience—this comes from inquiry findings and testimonies.

32:28 Trigger warning—statistics show patterns in abuse shifting across age and gender.

33:01 The evidence shows perpetrators are not tied to one sex—they shift based on opportunity.

33:09 That’s something not talked about enough—the mechanics of it.

33:15 And availability plays a role. I was made available by my parents.

33:30 You’re often left with people you’re told to trust—and sometimes that trust is broken.

33:42 Can you explain dysfellowshipping and how you’ve built a life outside it?

34:00 Dysfellowshipping, or shunning, happens when you step outside the rules.

34:07 It could be accepting a blood transfusion, sex outside marriage, smoking, gambling.

34:29 If it’s public or ongoing, you’re brought before elders.

34:45 If they decide you’re not repentant, you are shunned.

35:06 You can attend meetings, but no one will talk to you.

35:21 Even within family, treatment changes based on belief status.

35:37 I left home young because it became unbearable.

36:03 You grow up quickly in that situation.

36:13 They may return during vulnerable times to try to bring you back.

36:24 For example, after the earthquakes, an elder showed up asking if I’d return.

36:59 When my parents passed, I was allowed to attend but not participate.

37:19 I wasn’t allowed to speak at my father’s service.

37:38 At my mother’s funeral, I was told I couldn’t speak—and if I did, people would walk out.

38:17 There was no space to honour her story.

38:41 That has stayed with me.

38:53 I was even told that this was my “last chance” to return.

39:11 I said no.

39:20 There’s a lot of judgment in that system.

39:31 JWs are taught the world is under Satan’s control and the end is near.

39:59 When did you realize that wasn’t true?

40:09 The first few years out were chaotic—finding my way.

40:21 I experienced new things—education, dancing, freedom.

40:32 I realized I wasn’t being punished for living normally.

40:47 The world didn’t end when it was supposed to.

40:55 That made me question everything I’d been taught.

41:06 I began to see those teachings as control mechanisms.

41:23 I explored other beliefs and built my own values.

41:51 Having a child changed everything—it made me question what I would pass on.

42:20 I knew what I didn’t want to repeat.

42:36 I had to define my own beliefs from scratch.

42:53 Questioning became freedom.

43:09 My 20s and 30s became a time of exploration.

43:25 Trying things I never could before—it was liberating.

43:40 Even with triggers, there was joy too.

43:47 What was your first “forbidden” celebration?

43:57 Singing happy birthday in class as a child.

44:05 It was about fitting in.

44:16 That memory still feels emotional.

44:25 Then my first Christmas—I went all out with gifts.

44:41 It was joyful and meaningful.

44:56 Later, celebrating with my own children became very special.

45:13 That shared excitement and joy was unforgettable.

45:27 How do you feel now about celebrating yourself?

45:35 That’s a deeper question—it goes beyond birthdays.

45:46 Self-worth and pride don’t come easily after that upbringing.

45:58 Um believing in yourself does not come easy.

45:58 There’s still moments now where I might have done something which is amazing and I still don’t think it’s enough.

46:06 Yeah. It’s not enough. I should do more. Yeah. Um, and that’s that’s through over time,

46:14 like as a parent, beating yourself up as a parent. My daughter is the most amazing creature. She has taught me so much about being accepting of yourself.

46:25 Yeah.

46:26 And she’s had her fair share of traumas over time and has uh ended up being on the getting herself in a bit of trouble with drugs and alcohol and what have you. and she’s now a mom of three beautiful kids and she’s freaking amazing as a mother.

46:45 She’s she teaches me, right? So, yes. Yeah.

46:54 Okay. I just want to you you um you you talked earlier about the butterfly technique um which I found really

47:02 interesting. Have you are there any other specific grounding techniques or physical practices that help you, you

47:11 know, help you harness your nervous system when you feel a trauma response coming on?

47:16 Um, I did an amazing course called Intuitive Mastery, right,

47:20 with a lady called Rebecca Davidson. And part of that we learned, you could call it a meditation.

47:28 And what you do is you you sit you take some really nice deep breaths and then you take your eyes and your thoughts right up miles and miles up into the

47:37 above the stars and you think about light coming down and you bring it down and you take it on a journey through

47:44 your body um through your crown and it talks about chakras which are nervous energy centers

47:51 where they they have medical names but um they’re called chakras in my terminology and take it the light

47:58 through your body and then take it right down through your legs and down into the ground. And you imagine roots going into the ground. Yeah.

48:07 Big thick chunky roots wrapped around tree roots right down into the ground.

48:14 So you’re part of the energy that’s within the soil, the trees and all the energy from the people around you.

48:21 And then you bring it back up to your heart and then you spread it out and you go out. And when you start thinking about spreading it out, it connects you

48:29 to people and to nature and all of those things. Then take it right out as far out as you can. Just keep imagining it going further and further.

48:40 The grounding your roots into the earth and going out this way gives you such a feeling of belonging and being part of a

48:48 bigger picture in a really positive way. And that helps calm if especially for me my

48:57 anxiety shows as pins and needles across my shoulders.

49:00 Um and it will get rid of that just just about instantly as soon as I start grounding myself. Walking barefoot on the dirt.

49:08 Oh yeah. That’s really good stuff. Yeah.

49:11 Walking’s really good. Physical exercise is good. But not and this side

49:19 say not doing physical exercise as a punishment. And it’s really easy to fall into that trap of doing physical

49:27 exercise which is and I’m not saying don’t go running till you sweat or going to the gym till you’re lifting heavy weights but doing it for a joy not as a

49:36 punishment because that’s a really easy thing to to slip into. Right. It should be for joy.

49:42 Yeah. Absolutely.

49:45 cults often use thought stopping phrases to discourage critical thinking. Um,

49:53 was there any specific kind of thought stopping techniques that you had to unlearn and what did you replace them with?

50:03 Um, if you think like that demons will get in, right?

50:07 Oh, that’s a goodie. So meditating open blank mind demons will get in. I had to fight that when I first started

50:16 meditating because it would just overpower what I was thinking.

50:20 Um and what I was trying to accomplish which was to clear all that busyness out of my mind. As I said before, I was always busy.

50:27 Yes. Um I think that was a big even with doing even now with doing raiki and doing all

50:35 that kind of what energy type healing type of stuff massage even um

50:42 just not letting that that kind of thought pop into my head just pushing that away somewhere cuz it’s wrong.

50:50 Yeah.

50:51 Um and probably the other one about non-believer. So if you if you do that you’re a non-believer. you’re not,

50:59 you know, you’re you’re wrong in doing that. Yeah. Um Yeah. That non-believer thing.

51:06 Being Yeah. I think that probably is a biggie.

51:15 In another group, similar teachings discouraged reading other beliefs, saying demons would enter through your senses.

51:32 It’s very similar across different high-control groups.

51:40 Yeah, absolutely.

51:44 What would you say to your younger self when you first left?

52:19 I would say: find support. Don’t do it alone.

52:43 It was very lonely leaving without knowing anyone else who had left.

52:58 Get support early. Don’t leave it too long.

53:14 Counseling helped, but I wish I had focused more on how the cult shaped my behavior.

53:25 Find the right therapist—someone who isn’t afraid of the trauma.

53:52 I’ve finally found that person now.

54:07 She helps me face triggers and gives me tools without letting me avoid them.

54:20 It’s been transformative.

54:31 Being part of peer support like Uncult has also been powerful.

54:51 Hearing others’ stories showed me I wasn’t alone.

55:03 The patterns across cults are the same—manipulation, vulnerability.

55:19 That shared experience changed how I see my own story.

55:32 I no longer feel alone.

55:47 Reaching out to others has been incredibly healing.

56:11 Letting people know they’re not alone is so important.

56:22 The group offers guidance, not answers.

56:48 It’s a safe, supportive space.

57:10 If it helps even one person, it matters.

57:31 Joining was scary, but the support has been incredible.

57:55 That’s the purpose of sharing these stories—to help others find support sooner.

58:12 Earlier support can prevent harmful coping mechanisms.

58:25 Another thing—people can fall back into similar dynamics even after leaving.

58:53 Diverse groups help prevent that.

59:03 It’s about recovery and growth.

59:26 What should people understand about survivors?

59:43 They are vulnerable.

59:53 They may feel deeply alone.

1:00:05 Be patient. Be kind. Don’t judge.

1:00:11 Offer guidance gently.

1:00:20 Ask simple, supportive questions.

1:00:44 Survivors are often in survival mode.

1:00:55 Safety is essential.

1:01:01 That’s a powerful note to end on.

1:01:11 This has been an incredibly meaningful conversation.

1:01:40 Recovery takes time, but there is joy along the way.

1:01:53 There are “glimmers”—moments of light.

1:02:18 Those moments give hope.

1:02:26 They help counter the tendency to catastrophize.

1:02:34 There are gifts everywhere.

1:02:42 Thank you so much for sharing your story.

1:02:48 Thank you for having me. It’s been a beautiful experience.

1:02:52 That concludes today’s interview with Jen. Stay tuned for more.

0:00 Welcome to Unspun: Unraveling the Threads of Cult Recovery. This podcast exists because so many people carry untold stories about growing up in,

0:10 joining, leaving, or questioning cults.

0:13 We share honest conversations with people who have untangled themselves from restrictive belief systems, harmful communities, and environments that once shaped their identity. Our purpose is to create a living resource, a place where people can come to for understanding,

0:30 validation, and pathways for support. Whether you’re newly questioning,

0:36 recently out, supporting someone you love, or years into rebuilding your life, this space is for you. We aim to

0:44 reduce shame on a lived experience and remind you that you are not alone.

0:50 And today it’s my great honor to introduce Scott Harmon.

0:55 Scott is a firsttime filmmaker. He was raised in the northwoods of Wisconsin in the heart of the Great Lakes region

1:02 where the culture is fiercely DIY. His dad joined the Jehovah’s Witnesses when he was a child. Taught by eccentric

1:10 parents to defy cultural norms. Scott created his first two student documentaries at 17 in a high school

1:17 program. He worked at channel 7 news running camera and sound in Wasau and then went to photography school in

1:26 Minneapolis during the transition from film to digital. His late 20s saw Scott come to the conclusion he didn’t believe

1:34 in their god Jehovah and realized he was an atheist. For this he was completely cut off by his family that remained in

1:41 the religion. He later lived abroad for seven years in Ecuador and Vietnam where he primarily focused on developing the

1:49 skills to run a boutique documentary production studio. He and two friends in Hanoi created Banana Island Films, a

1:57 music video and documentary production company that he runs to this day. And through that, he released his excellent documentary Witness Underground.

2:06 Scott, it’s so awesome to have you here today. I also just wanted to say that Scott was integral in helping us start

2:15 up our local uncult group, which is a peer support group for cult survivors.

2:20 Um, and it’s where Joy and I first met Scott. So, yeah, it’s lovely to have you along. Yeah, thanks for having me on.

2:28 Appreciate all of that. It’s been really nice working with both of you. Yeah. Yeah,

2:33 we’ll also put all your links in the show notes at the end so if people see the movie um or catch up with what

2:40 you’re up to then they’re able to do that. I guess in terms of your story,

2:45 can you tell us a little bit about yourself now?

2:51 Now I’m 45 and living in a very different place with um we talked a lot

2:59 about film making in the bio. Thank you for the intro. But I also do engineering work.

3:03 So I have like outdoor sports. I do mountain biking,

3:07 bit of hiking and snowboarding back in the day. Less of that nowadays, more mountain biking and rock climbing.

3:13 That’s taken me to different places in the world and it’s been fun. Met a lot of friends through that.

3:20 Can you um I’m in Denver. You’re in Denver, right? Denver, Colorado. Denver, Colorado. The base capital of USA.

3:27 Yeah. and the best place to do climbing and mountain biking and all that stuff. Yeah, it’s pretty good for that. Yeah.

3:34 So, Scott, can you give us a brief background of your experience in the Jehovah’s Witness?

3:39 Okay. Grandparents joined it after their last failed prediction of the end of the world in the mid ‘7s. They joined in the

3:46 early 80s. My parents, my dad joined it when I was young like eight years old

3:53 and did an indoctrination and then like session over years like childhood indoctrination. Other key things would

4:00 be I was probably the most serious about it in a sense like trying to do all the things to be a part of it because you

4:07 know they dangled the carrot in front of us that you need to be a slave to attain

4:15 immortality and survive the end of the world where Jesus murders everyone who’s not a Jehovah’s Witness. Um, so I did some things for that even though I was

4:23 kind of skeptical most of the time and into punk rock and music making with non cult members and um later got out. There

4:32 was like a big break at 19 and then I kind of went back to it on my own terms with like limited things and then eventually left at 27.

4:41 Right. Right.

4:43 What was the catalyst moment that led you to leaving? Probably the biggest impactful thing was that there’s this

4:50 thing I learned from later on a a a verbiage that is something like allowing yourself to do the research or

4:58 allowing yourself to explore a doubt in your faith which I think is an interesting way of framing it. like I

5:06 was denying myself the ability to unwind cognitive dissonance…

5:13 holding two opposing ideas that are conflicting and not resolving that. It’s like kind of chaotic to like have biology class and

5:21 read National Geographic about particle physics and and then also have someone say that, you know, the Earth is 6,000

5:29 years old or that humans were just poofed into existence by a deity. the

5:35 war god 6,000 years ago. We are somehow the bad guys for the way it all worked

5:42 out and we suck. Um, so like those like I was having lots of conflicting information from two different groups essentially like a science-based secular

5:51 community which is the general society and then the Jehovah’s Witnesses trying to push their ideas into your skull as

5:59 deep and fast as they can with no evidence at all. So probably for me the most dangerous idea was that if I looked into certain aspects of science,

6:08 evolution being like a big one for that religion and important for me that it would unwind my fragile faith built on nothing.

6:17 Yeah.

6:17 And except for their publications and you’re not really allowed to read anything outside of it. Although my family sucked at the religion and were new so they didn’t have that rule. So we

6:25 had like the encyclopedia and the respected National Geographic and secular people.

6:31 So you know finally like I blocked some things. I’m like I’m not going to look too deep into that because I know I will trust the science because I’ve

6:38 had a whole life of like exposure to data and experts and I’ve never met a Jehovah’s Witness who had could knock

6:46 two brain cells together when it came to science. allowing myself to do the research just like that was that was the path out basically without being that it

6:55 wasn’t the intention. It was just like well I have to believe this or not or be out and so like I’m not going to believe anything I can’t. That was probably the biggest one for me.

7:04 It sounds like it wasn’t fast. It wasn’t instantaneous though.

7:06 Yeah. Sounds like you had access to education and resources that other people didn’t. Is that right? Maybe not

7:14 more access, just maybe more comfortability with access using it. And also I was there for the early internet. So like early search where like well what is it?

7:25 What can we find on the internet about this topic? It wasn’t just 1970 encyclopedia that your grandparents or parents happened to buy,

7:32 which I used a lot cuz back then that was the source of most of my knowledge for book reports and stuff like that. And yes,

7:38 in school and when the internet came out, I was like, well, there’s more information here. And then Wikipedia of course became like the global encyclopedia

7:46 and businesses won’t read it. They’re like, you can’t trust the internet. Like it’s the encyclopedia. It’s the whole collected human knowledge. when you when

7:53 you decided that science had won you over and you were in the process of leaving, did you have any outside

8:00 support during the exit process or was it a sol solitary move?

8:04 So, in a lot of ways, it’s it’s kind of a dual thing where I had a unique situation within the Jehovah’s Witnesses where you’re not supposed to have friends in that religious culture

8:12 outside of the religion. Most people have a quite an insular community and I grew up without that because my parents were new and were in a small town and I

8:20 had already had like lots of family on one my mom’s side of the family who were never a part of it. They were a lot of them were in different religious or

8:28 going to different churches but there wasn’t any dogmatic thing about that.

8:32 They just did whatever they did whatever they liked and there was no kind of control. Um so I had that influence and they were quite like evenhanded about

8:40 their religious beliefs. It was mostly like just one of the many things that they did and they had their own education sources. So I had that influence but also most of my friends were never Jehovah’s Witnesses,

8:50 right?

8:50 So it was like a unique situation in that case. But then when it came to the religious people in my life and the

8:58 context of those conversations and those topics in the presence of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would be I was very

9:05 vigilant about who it was safe and who was unsafe to communicate about certain things to. And I asked questions of some of the local leadership that I was like,

9:14 I wonder about this and I don’t I can’t find any good information. What do you think? But mostly like a I’ll take your information as one source of education

9:24 without establishing that I’m fervently like have a different opinion or something.

9:29 So I had to be careful in that sense which is kind of like there’s always a watchful eye and if you say the wrong thing you’ll be punished in some way. Yeah,

9:38 more surveiled differently or more intensely.

9:41 How was the experience of leaving for you?

9:44 So, okay, religious deconstruction can be very long. It often is quite a long process for people and most people.

9:51 Okay, it’s quite there’s quite a many ways that this happens. For me, it was sort of a always happening simultaneously with my

9:59 religious life, the parts of my life that were religious where I was kind of always questioning certain things and had books on those things or would buy

10:08 DVDs on those topics or research in quiet on those topics.

10:12 I guess I’m interested in hearing about the kind of emotional experience of leaving for you. Was it hard to leave? I

10:22 mean, yeah. devastating or liberating I guess. Yeah. I think the period from 19 to 27,

10:29 the 19-year-old thing was I didn’t go to church for like half a year, right?

10:33 And then I had this big like hard heart with my dad where he basically said,

10:36 “You don’t have to you don’t have to believe what the religious leaders say,

10:40 believe what their literature says. You don’t even have to go to church. You just have to like focus on you and your relationship with God and or Jesus.” And

10:48 um which is not the Jehovah’s Witness line at all.

10:51 Right. And I was like, “Oh, that’s how you see this. Interesting.” Cuz I have sort of like taken my parents way of doing it and the religious way of doing it. And there’s lots of disparity between the two. And I was like, “Okay,

11:01 if I’m going to do it my dad’s way, that changes things. I will keep the punk rock band. I will keep traveling and I will go to college even though they’re

11:09 not supposed to.” So, I kind of had this like it actually was probably worse. I kind of wished looking back that I’d ripped a band-aid off and just like been

11:17 out at 19 and lived my 20s in the way that was felt felt comfortable or liberating. But I stuck with some very toxic unhealthy behavior.

11:26 So even his his big appeal to me then was like kind of manipulate very manipulative actually. It was very emotional and it felt like he wasn’t

11:34 listening. So that created a big rift between us that never went away actually which is unfortunate when it when I was

11:41 like hey this is where I’m at like let’s talk as an adult to an adult you know 19-year-old I felt that I was mature but

11:49 then later when I finally left the 27 yearear-old moment where that was also like a all right I’m done all the way

11:57 now I just don’t believe any of it like it’s 100% out and like there’s no more manipulation or

12:05 guilting me into things or coercive control that you can use to influence my life. And that was very challenging to

12:12 my family. And a lot of them went deeper into the religion because they’re like,

12:16 “Oh my god, we’re in the midst of the antichrist.

12:19 I’m not the antichrist. I just finished reading the book on how the real world works or whatever.” I just felt very confident

12:28 and I started I started actually a deeper cleansing and framework deconstruction while my family was like positioning

12:35 themselves to disconnect all the way from me when they were maybe previous to that tolerant of my more freethinking

12:44 way of handling the world while maintaining my relationship with the religion and then they were like oh he’s he’s unhinged now and we can’t control him nothing will

12:52 bring him back they would like delete me on Facebook as like digital friends like like we’re family. You’re going to delete me as a digital friend on an app somewhere.

13:03 That’s so what is that about? And then they wouldn’t talk to me for six months and then they would add me back on Facebook. I’m like are we family or not?

13:09 Like what’s going on? And they did that like three different times and then tried to bring me back into the family and then thought that they made me an

13:17 ultimatum that I somehow rejected even though they never did. And there’s lots of weird discussions. It just got really

13:24 weird seeing my family get super culty because I basically rejected every Jehovah’s Witness that did that kind of stuff while I was in it.

13:31 I was like, I’m going to only hang out with the people that I really like connect with in it like very very selective about who I would spend time with in that community.

13:38 And to see my family like going full like corporate like we must tow the line and obey and not speak to this person in

13:47 our family. And they would say all the lines that like mind programming had like fully worked on them and they were just like repeating things that they

13:55 were told would work if they used the magic phrases that they were told which this made me think like oh my god they’re so they’re lost into this thing

14:04 now. I didn’t know that but I hadn’t been and all that to say like that whole 10-year period I was in another state or another country that whole time.

14:12 They started doing this weird culty thing a decade after I was not even in their presence. I would see them once a year or something. Yeah.

14:20 So that’s been hard. That’s been the hardest thing is that the shunning which is ultimately like when I made the film Witness Underground is that I wanted to

14:27 make a deal about how insidious and like like inhumane shunning is. Yeah.

14:35 But also point out like okay on some level yes I am the victim. I’m the shunn. But at the same time, like they

14:43 are the victims and that they are the mindcontrolled group. Yeah.

14:47 Who are all acting in harmony with a cult who demands that they shun. Yeah.

14:52 As their slaves who work tirelessly to pro proilitize their faith. And they don’t see it that way. They can’t. They

15:01 think they’re just doing the right thing and that they’re somehow on the right side of history or whatever and that I am somehow a bad person for being honest.

15:10 Yeah. In many ways, you’re all the victims. Yeah. Yeah. It just sucks for everyone. Yeah. Don’t join a cult.

15:18 Yeah.

15:19 So, when you move out of a cult, it’s it’s kind of like starting life from scratch for a lot of people and stuff that, you know, seems like everyday

15:27 tasks to, you know, non non-cult survivors. You know, they just sort of come along naturally. They’re they’re second nature.

15:36 But for you when you left was was it hard to you know what were the most challenging

15:44 aspects of adjusting to everyday life once you were out you know for example you know simple choices about managing

15:53 time or what did what did you watch on TV were you you know did you feel comfortable watching TV listening to

16:00 music and so on what buying groceries all that sort of thing you know what what kind of everyday tasks did you find challenging

16:08 in in a general sense for people who might not know jobs businesses are actually quite integrated into the greater culture like they have

16:14 apartments they have secular jobs in the rest of the world like they have co-workers who are all their co-workers will never been part of that religion

16:22 it’s really common Yorkshire shopping TV they are restrictions music there’s restrictions so art intake there’s restrictions media and knowledge intake

16:30 there are restrictions but they really just make you they can they would like you to self police and um if somebody finds out that another member is doing

16:39 something they shouldn’t then they might turn them in or like directly say to them to their face like hey I saw you

16:46 have this rated our movie what’s the deal with that or they might keep it a secret and then use it at the right time to throw that person under the bus to

16:54 the local leadership but I grew up in a sense without that my parents were like big into music and wanted us to go have

17:02 these kinds of experiences they limited some media, but we’re kind of comfortable with Rated R essentially in our childhood. And my my mom would buy

17:11 us like explicit lyrics like rap albums when we were kids. So, I kind of don’t think I had much of a problem integrating and maybe the at 19 I think

17:20 I struggled with identity like through my 20s with identity on like what stuff is acceptable. And I did a few things where I like self- selected some of my

17:29 music or like I wouldn’t choose to listen I kept my music but I wouldn’t choose to listen to things. I was like all right that’s kind of on the edge but

17:38 that was only like a couple of short windows of time where I was trying to be trying to be quote unquote good um a good witness. So was it was it more

17:47 sort of interpersonal relationships that you kind of start that that was the struggle really like everyday tasks?

17:55 There wasn’t much difference. So So and when I got out finally like it was an incredible relief to have three full

18:05 days of my life back every week where I didn’t have to do coerced church things.

18:10 And often it was 4 days a week if you were like trying to like do some local mission with the congregation because

18:17 there’s a big push to do something from the corporate on top like move this piece of literature to your whole neighborhood and do like 60 hours a month.

18:26 So you you didn’t get that kind of thing where which happens with a lot of cult survivors is that all of a sudden

18:34 they’ve got all of this free time and they don’t I was so relieved. you you were so relieved. But some finally to read those books.

18:42 Some people experience anxiety, feel guilty for not being productive and and are constantly looking for something to do or fill their time. Did you did you experience that at all?

18:52 I think not so much. I was mostly just grateful and I would go do something really fun that I wanted to do more of all the time that had been self-restricting to do church things.

19:03 So, actually, it was quite a relief. And I think I I leaned more into travel. I’d already experienced quite a bit of travel but it was it was just oh I can

19:10 have complete liberation soon enough was living for like permanently in another country and that was like a big life dream of mine that I wasn’t sure I could

19:16 do in the context of the religion and I figured out a way to do it just teaching English to start and then doing what I actually cared about after a couple of

19:24 years of kind of establishing myself there and that felt incredible and maybe there is something you’re you’re mentioning about

19:32 not knowing what to do with the time on your hands or feeling guilty but I was like, “Oh, I know what I want to do. I’m going to” But I would like maybe go

19:39 overboard and like spend full-time hours per week diving into a passion almost as like a I need to make up for lost time.

19:48 Yeah.

19:49 Um Yeah.

19:50 I think maybe my anxiety was kind of pushing me there a bit, right?

19:53 Yeah. I’ve noticed that too with a few people we’ve interviewed. They actually um just keep on taking more more and

20:01 more hobbies on and learning more and more new stuff. I guess it’s kind of compensating for what you didn’t have.

20:09 Yeah. And I feel good about that though.

20:11 I think I I finally I think I reached recently in the last couple of years like a okay I can go with the flow. I can I need to be balanced. I need to

20:18 like listen to my body and my nervous system about what’s a healthy balance with these things where before I was like I have a mission. Especially with the movie because it was very much related to this topic.

20:28 Um I need to do this. It has to get done. And I would do things when it wasn’t healthy for me to be doing them.

20:34 Like yeah,

20:35 relistening to someone tell their most traumatic experience on camera that I interviewed them for because I need to cut it into a movie and then I’m

20:43 reliving their trauma and like experience empath experiencing deep empathy for this horrible thing. Yeah.

20:49 Like again and again and again and again and again for like two straight years.

20:52 It was that was not healthy. I would next time I’ll hire someone or just not work on that kind of project, you know?

20:58 Yeah. So, I think I I’ve learned a lot about my nervous system from doing that project, which is I’m not recommending this.

21:05 Seek professional help, you know. Yeah, for sure.

21:08 Don’t try to make a movie about your trauma and triggers. Not recommended.

21:13 No. I mean, that must been a a huge part of your recovery. Is that right? Or Yeah. I think it showed me it made me

21:22 very it made me face very directly my own issues so regularly that I was like it’s exhausting but also it showed me

21:31 introduced me to people that were doing things in a healthier at a healthier pace and then I started choosing to do

21:39 the healthier avenue which is like let’s talk to a professional about these particular issues that have come up so many times instead of just like trying to handle it alone.

21:49 which has not worked.

21:50 So in making the movie documentary, it sort of became a catalyst for your your healing like whether you intended to or

21:59 not, you ended up going on this journey of being exposed to other people’s trauma and at the same time having to deal with your own and process your own,

22:08 but yet still carry on making the documentary. That must have been quite hard.

22:13 Yeah. And I took some breaks almost out of necessity.

22:16 Yeah, that’s good. and then got back to it, which was hard cuz it’s like, oh,

22:19 here I’m facing this thing that was so hard that made me quit this important mission.

22:23 I think that’s I think that’s a great valuable lesson to mention to our listeners, you know, is is that you need to take breaks. You need you need to let the dust settle. You need to let the steam come out your ears. You need some downtime, don’t you?

22:38 Yeah. I also used alcohol. I mean, I’ve used alcohol my whole life, but like Yeah.

22:43 enjoyed it. But also during the editing of this film, I was writing to one of the guys that’s in the film that I was like, “Oh, this is like an editing

22:51 session. I’ve had a couple whisies.” And he’s like, “You’re supposed to what do you say?” Right?

22:58 Write drunk silver.

23:03 And I was like, “Oh, I’ve actually never heard that.” He’s like, “Yeah, you’re doing it the opposite. You don’t edit drunk.” That that was Hemingway, I think.

23:11 Yeah. Yeah. Good old Hemingway. What was the impetus for the movie? Have you seen it? Absolutely.

23:20 Okay. It’s fantastic. I mean,

23:22 well, how did it start or Yeah. The inspiration came from seeing so many films, well not so many, a

23:29 handful of films come out over like a 25 year period that dealt with Jehovah’s Witnesses, but then there’s also other ones that are adjacent, like ones about

23:37 Mormons, ones about Scientology, ones about other kind of like fringier, more extremist um fundamentalist groups. And

23:46 they I was like I feel like they don’t represent my journey. They they all roll credits when they the person leaves or

23:54 when the person kind of gets like more abused by the cult after getting out or something. It’s just they all kind of come away with this like, oh, it’s gross

24:02 and painful and we should pity these people who have told this harrowing story. And I was like, actually, I feel

24:09 like my life began the actual day I made a stand for myself and left. And then I started reading the

24:16 things I was like withholding and like exploring with or like holding back getting into and then going to school

24:23 and choosing to live where I wanted to live and choosing a career that I was passionate about or was super curious about and like choosing myself for my

24:32 full potential. So, and I also had some like really profound experiences after getting out that have like reshaped how I see the entire world and how humanity

24:42 works and how nature works and to roll credits at the beginning of the journey. It doesn’t make any sense to me. Like I

24:49 want to show people who’ve transcended this difficult thing and then gone and done something. Yeah.

24:54 And I I thought sure I could make a film about myself, I guess. U but I hadn’t really accomplished any of those things at that point. And I was more thinking

25:03 like how would I tell this journey that’s has a positive end like a hopeful end that might an end or a film finale

25:11 that might inspire someone to try to do that thing that they love themselves or use art to express themselves which like

25:19 I I’ve talked a lot about the film and that self-expression like saves lives or people are using art to process their

25:27 trauma but ultimately you do art because you have to or you feel inspired to and it’s like a positive thing like go do the thing get

25:36 the paint and like paint something. It doesn’t even matter what it is. Or if you do if you do art therapy great like someone can direct you to like talk about or like express on that specific

25:44 issue you have. But mostly doing art is just healthy. people should be doing art and crafts or whatever the thing is they’re passionate about as often

25:53 you know or just let’s just say often and maybe something will come out related to your trauma or triggers or past or realization will happen in the

26:01 art and it’s not that’s not necessarily the focus but yeah I kind of want to make something that had this like artistic arc to it and I felt that I have made a

26:09 lot of art in my life not as much as I’d like to I’d like to do more but that these people that are in the film they had not only done it and they’ve done it well they also captured it inside the

26:18 religion but then they also used that same self-expression to uh once

26:26 they like were more liberated and more free, felt free to express themselves fully and not coded for their strange

26:34 culty audience in their friend community and under fear of surveillance, but that they could actually say whatever they wanted like fully liberated. and they

26:42 did that and I was like that is that is like such a crazy cool arc that would transcend the classic cult documentary role credits when the person’s crying when we feel pity.

26:52 Yeah. I guess that’s what I really appreciated about your story was that I mean it was very real and very raw but

27:00 also had that feeling of hope and creativity along the the way. Yeah,

27:06 you’re right. Like that’s what m is missing often often in cult media and the reporting and the documentaries is

27:14 that okay you came from something really difficult and what’s next.

27:20 The what’s next is important huge and I I felt in general they’re kind of exploitative of the emotional weight of what these people went through.

27:28 Yeah. where people use the word trauma informed a lot when it comes to telling someone’s story.

27:33 And I didn’t have the training to like claim that that’s what I was or what I was doing. Yeah.

27:38 But I definitely came from that world and I felt that I could empathize and also not just focus on those like heavy moments of that person’s life. We’ll talk about that, but then there’s more,

27:48 you know. It’s kind of voyerism in many ways, isn’t it? Yeah.

27:52 So, so Scott, get getting back to your recovery journey. We we always say recovery isn’t linear. How do you handle

28:00 triggers or moments when the old cult think tries to creep back in?

28:06 It’s definitely changed over time. I have way more skills in that area now.

28:11 Um probably the most profound thing that I found.

28:15 I’m trying to think when it was. I probably was already working on the film as that that was kind of a goal of mine like this would be good for me, you

28:22 know, um selfishly. But I found this group called recovering fromreligion.org and they have a resource center or

28:32 resource website for like 50 different cult groups that are like highly vetted media like three videos on Earth about

28:40 this topic. They’re like, “We went through this. We think it’s safe. We think it’s very helpful and this will help like for that particular person or group or someone from that group or

28:49 adjacent to that group.” And there was this section on Jehovah’s Witnesses. And then I was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” And also they have whole

28:56 sections on narcissism. They have like experts on narcissistic abuse,

28:59 manipulation, control, and maybe even leaning into the dark triad space which includes psychopathy and sociopathy. I can’t remember exactly. No, I forget.

29:11 Olath, all the bad ones.

29:15 So I was like, oh really diving in learning about that like this religion and maybe all these religions actually have these kinds of people in leadership andor are kind of training you to be

29:23 manipulative like the leadership people oscillate through that hierarchy at times in these different groups. But I was learning about that not only for the

29:30 religion but also my family dynamics and how they are acting whether or not they are diagnosed or will ever be diagnosed in those spaces like they’re acting out

29:38 some of these things by training. And um that was really helpful. But then the probably the most impactful thing was that when I have things come up like uh

29:47 if I have a family interaction that comes as a surprise and almost always comes with some something insane that they do or say or imply or like they’ll

29:56 use some like coded language that only the cult has taught them and they’re like repeating it as like I’m going to use this against this like evil person

30:04 in my family for some reason. A lot of it I think is even subconscious. They don’t even know they’re doing it. M but like in I went to a funeral this year

30:12 for another family member and saw many of my immediate family for the first time in like 10 years or something. Wow.

30:20 So that was a lot to handle. So let’s say for that ex that thing um I had used

30:27 even years ago recovering from religion has monthly calls in a lot of places on earth and they also have a a hotline that’s like 24 hours a day in many many

30:35 languages around the world in like every time zone and it’s all volunteers who go through a training and much like UNCLT kind of what we have especially you two

30:44 have really honed in as like what’s safe how to communicate and like who’s safe to be in those spaces and who’s not and if like there’s trouble, how to handle

30:52 that. And like you really want to like maintain a healthy space for people who are really needing help or a free space to communicate without judgment.

31:04 This scenario is sort of where boundaries are really important. Like it’s not it’s not the sort of situation

31:11 that you can make boundaries up on the spot. You really need to be clear about them going into the situation, right?

31:17 Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. To give a great example, one on one call, I was in this living in in Los Angeles and there was a local Zoom call once once a month, which

31:25 I’m still on their call list. I use it once in a while,

31:28 but there was this young woman who was kind of hosting it and trained and there was these like three young people who popped on with a crew of like eight people. So, we’re on this like call with

31:36 like eight people, which is about the right,

31:38 you know, five to eight is usually what comes on and then could be more. And then there’s like these three young people like, “Oh, we’re from a college.

31:44 We just we just like to observe.” And they’re like, “In what context?” And they’re like, “Oh, we’re from this religious theology school and we want to

31:51 know what it’s like to be, you know, to interact people who are like from a cult.” She’s like, “Absolutely unacceptable. We will not tolerate

32:00 people spying, surveilling, and doing a book report on someone’s actually like they’re here for actual help. So, nice to meet you, but goodbye.” Just like

32:09 deleted them all. And I was like I was actually doing fine that particular day.

32:12 And I was like, I’m so curious what they would have said.

32:16 But like ultimately I was like, oh, but it’s also a safe space for these other seven people in the room in the Zoom call. So that kind of thing I was really grateful for.

32:23 When us three first started up uncult,

32:27 we did have a couple of inquiries from social workers who wanted to learn.

32:32 Their intention was good. It wasn’t selfish. They wanted to learn about cults to help to, you know, to to be trauma informed. I said, “Sorry, that’s

32:40 get some training kind of from the source.” that’s like that’s this is not what that’s for. This is for survivors how to help each other, you know. So

32:48 there’s there’s always um hazards with those kinds of groups, but a good co rule of conduct and and good boundaries really helps.

32:57 Yeah. And I found like even in our group in New Zealand in Christ Church with Uncult the first a couple sessions I was able to make before I left the country.

33:05 I did have some strange things happen that were tricky and I was surprised by like let’s say you have training for this kind of thing.

33:14 being able to share and then get like almost like a professional level feedback if desired or if you had something to say. But also the other

33:22 people in the group who have gone through similar or adjacent things being able to kind of like relate Yeah.

33:28 and then share on that topic was like really cathartic. Yeah. Really healthy. Yeah.

33:35 I think because the often the experience of leaving a cult is so isolating. Yeah. Yeah.

33:42 And I mean, you’re really trained to live in your mind and really trained,

33:47 you know, your thoughts are all curated and kind of grooved in there. And to start hearing other people kind of feed

33:54 back to you a similar story, you don’t feel so alone anymore. And it’s a shared experience rather than just your

34:03 paranoid thinking. When you’re in the cult, you’re told that you are the your cult is the only right one and everyone else is wrong.

34:12 So, you know, you sort of feel unique and special and you sort of carry that when you come out of the cult and you think, well, I’m I’m the only one because we were we were the chosen ones,

34:23 you know, and you s you still sort of hang on to that and you don’t it’s not until you go into a group and you see a completely different cult from a

34:31 different culture with a different language with a, you know, a completely different set of doctrines and whatnot,

34:37 but then you’re like, well, they’re so different, but we relate. so closely.

34:42 And I think that’s one of the biggest healing benefits to to peer support groups is just to be with other people

34:51 that have experience the same thing. So validate your experience and you don’t feel alone. And that that is such a cathartic feeling for everyone. I think

35:00 it’s ubiquitous across all of our group members that they all feel like that. Yeah,

35:06 I definitely sensed and felt that way from other people, even people that are from completely different countries,

35:11 languages, and a completely different cult group sharing something. I’m like, it’s exact. It’s like so so right.

35:19 Exactly what I experienced, you know? Yeah. It’s amazing.

35:22 I’m wondering if I could ask you something about how you cope when you feel like you’re being pulled back into the mindset or a dissociative state. Do

35:31 you have a specific way of dealing with those things?

35:36 I mean, I think being in nature is important. Getting out into nature,

35:39 getting some perspective, doing a physical activity is good. Yeah.

35:43 And that might be something about like exercising the nervous system. Yes. Or even just taking your mind off of it, like moving your body in some way.

35:52 Um, I found some deep like relief from certain kinds of music. Music that like really draws me in.

36:00 Yeah. going to a concert or yeah moving to the music in whatever way that is for you to play music

36:07 along that theme Scott JW’s famously don’t celebrate birthdays or Christmas you know all these forbidden

36:14 celebrations how do you feel now about the concept of celebrating yourself and other events you know after being taught

36:22 that it was an act of pride or selfishness birthdays never been a big deal for me I have celebrated a few and I find it strange change cuz it’s not a part of my

36:31 past. It’s like, oh, this is the thing people do. I should try it. And it feels a little bit like that every time. I’m not regular at birthdays. Like if it quite a few years, I’m just like, oh,

36:40 it’s just like go get a a drink or like go get dinner and a drink or something or go get dinner and like go to a concert or something like that. So, it’s like a little bit special, but I would

36:49 want to do that anyways, but it’s like we make sure we do something because I it’s my birthday. And I also like to do that with other friends. I almost feel more comfortable celebrating

36:57 someone else’s birthday than I do my own. Yeah.

37:00 But at the same time, I’ve traveled a lot, which I guess is like very selfish in the sense that like I really want to do that thing and I do it I’ve done it a

37:08 lot alone and I’ve had a lot of growth in those parts of my life where I’ve been living abroad or traveling. So, in a sense, I I guess I really leaned into that aspect of it.

37:20 Yeah. Yeah. Taking a leap doing a fun thing.

37:23 I went the other way when I came out. I was like any excuse for a party and I I just wanted to celebrate everyone else’s

37:30 birthdays mine and yeah I was any excuse for a house party. I loved it.

37:36 Yeah, house part is great. I have to agree with you on that. I did have a funny thing in the pandemic. I kind of met a bunch of people in Los Angeles. I just moved there. Met a bunch of people

37:45 really briefly because we didn’t really know each other that well and then it was like lockdown so we’re like well none of us know anyone in this city but we know each other. It’s like then it

37:53 was just like a birthday celebration every other weekend because there’s like 30 people and like it’s a couple a month. Yeah.

37:59 And it was just like we’re making an excuse for a birthday. I was like I I was so so burned out on birthdays. Right.

38:05 Of course. Yet another costume themed party, right?

38:10 It’s someone else’s whole theme and and like usually I’m like, “Oh, we have very different tastes.” So it was just funny.

38:16 I’m like I think I made up for all my lost time on birthdays.

38:19 That’s great. That’s really good. That’s one of the best ways to overcome things. It’s like inoculation in some ways.

38:25 Healing all so many parties that you just Yeah. All right, I’ve done that. I can move on. Yeah. Yeah.

38:32 Now I can choose if I want to do it in the future. Yeah. Exactly.

38:35 Shame and guilt are often used as tools of control. What specific skills have you had to learn to deal with this?

38:43 It’s actually guilt had a really big impact on me. One of the things I I had a realization right when I fully completely disconnected from the

38:51 religion like made a big stance. I was like my my realization in that moment was if somebody’s using if if I’m

38:59 experiencing guilt I need to find out who it’s coming from and recognize that they’re trying to

39:06 manipulate me rather than the theme of the guilt. So I was like, “Oo, I I’m feeling the thing I’m someone else wants

39:13 me to experience because they have like unhealthy goals and I’m their pawn and I’m not like now I’m like hyper sensitive radar to that.”

39:24 And so I haven’t really experienced guilt. And I think guilt is can be healthy.

39:28 Like if you did something not nice, of course,

39:32 but then you can apologize and there can be like a dialogue about it. But if you’re experiencing and you didn’t do anything wrong, then it’s like someone’s trying to manipulate you. It was like a

39:39 big realization in my late 20s. I was like, “Never again. I will not let that ever be a part of my life.”

39:44 I really like that. So, if there’s that sense of guilt, you kind of try and pinpoint where it came from. Check out

39:52 whether it’s a manipulation of you and kind of work through it that way. Yeah. Shame.

40:01 I mean, there’s definitely shame as well, but hasn’t had that big of an impact in my life, I don’t think, compared to guilt. Yeah.

40:08 In your recovery, have you experienced heightened moments of anxiety, things like that, depression?

40:16 I experienced actually a fair amount of regular like seasonal depression, which I’m from a very wintry place. And so,

40:24 like I think part of it just related to like the changing seasons and like everything looks like it’s dying or is dying.

40:31 Um, and then like oh, there’s a six-month winter ahead.

40:35 Mhm. And then I traveled around that time. Um, and then like that was like a oh, if you travel like depressions

40:42 disappear. So I started kind of focusing on like, oh, how can I go do something fun? So like nothing like that sets in.

40:48 I’ve actually I think just being more balanced and and also feeling I had agency helped a lot with that. And since getting out, depression hasn’t been a

40:55 thing at all. What was the other terms issues you were mentioning? Oh, it was just anxiety and depression. What mechanisms do you use yourself to,

41:05 you know, if you ever come across that situation where you’re anxious about something related to the cult is, do you have any sort of mechanisms or

41:12 strategies to to help you work out of that?

41:16 I have experienced anxieties and I think they’re generally related to loss of agency or feeling vulnerable to other

41:24 people’s control. M um that could be like the government or like they have strict laws and like somehow I’m able to get past this thing.

41:34 But on a grander sense, something that’s really deeply helped me and many others I’ve talked to is psychedelic assisted

41:43 therapy. And there’s like professional places that are trained for that. And then there’s also like a very a very

41:49 much larger probably even easier to access non-trained area there to explore. It’s like risky

41:58 to recommend that to anyone because you’re not always in the right mind state for that kind of thing.

42:02 Uh and being in heightened anxiety, you don’t necessarily that’s not necessarily the solution like that.

42:07 Quite often people are already on meds like SSRI and whatnot. And you, you know, just so that people know that that

42:15 psychedelic therapy, you you can’t be taking any of that medicine. So if you want to benefit from psychedelic therapy, you have to come off your meds,

42:23 you know, you have to do that under the direction of a doctor, but it is, like you say, a very gray area. There are very few places that are allowed to do

42:31 it legally. I think there’s some that do it with ketamin. It’s not something to be taken lightly, but you know, I’ve also heard across the years great

42:40 benefits from many people going into psychedelic therapy. And it’s it’s an interesting alternative that I think we’ll see more of in the future.

42:49 Yeah. Just to lend some credence to it,

42:52 the studies that are coming out from John Hopkins University from MAPS, which is the multi-isiplinary association for psychedelic sciences,

43:02 right,

43:02 run out of California by Rick Dolblin and quite a few others. They’re they’re kind of focusing on people who have

43:10 lived through a war torn experience or the soldiers who have done the killings or defended their land which have, you know, there’s a lot of complications in

43:18 a war. um side taking PTSD or complex PTSD and then there’s like there’s so many more.

43:25 So like in the spaces that we’re usually discussing there’s RTS which is religious trauma syndrome which is I guarantee you it’s real.

43:34 That’s where my stuff is coming from. Yeah.

43:37 And there’s millions of people who have left this one religion that I have unfortunately found myself wound up in at some point in my early life. And uh

43:44 there’s so many more cults and religious groups that are doing these behaviors.

43:48 And there’s more cultish behavior and more cultish groups, political or like YouTubers or like finance cults than ever before in history.

43:59 Yeah.

43:59 And you can do it from the comfort of your own couch on watching YouTube or whatever.

44:04 So religious trauma syndrome is for is real. Cultic abuse is real.

44:08 And the DSM, I can’t remember what that stands for, but it’s like the global book for what are the psychological

44:16 conditions. Yeah. like complex PTSD doesn’t even make it in there and RTS isn’t mentioned ever. They’re like basically saying like we don’t know it

44:24 just call kind of falls under it’s just one more niche thing under this category we discovered in the 70s with soldiers

44:31 and so like all the research is still like all right we maybe we can try to solve or like work on these problems with soldiers we’ve been talking about

44:38 it since World War II but now we’re doing something about it which in a way I’m grateful for because if you can get the government to be like all right

44:46 we’re going to protect our soldiers then it might become more readily available to people who didn’t murder murder someone or watch their friends die. You know,

44:54 you can translate research and the treatments.

44:58 That’s that’s an unusual uh kind of cultural thing with the states is that quite often technology becomes available

45:06 in the military and that trickles down to the rest of the world. And maybe maybe it’s the same with this. Yeah. Yeah.

45:14 There’s a lot of progress being made there. And I’m seeing like soldiers talk about things, talk about reality in a way that sounds like you’re just at a yoga retreat. I’m like,

45:23 right, it’s working. Wow. That’s really great.

45:28 We’ve got a few minutes left, so I’ve just got a a few kind of quick final questions. If you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left,

45:39 what would you say? Yeah, I think I would talk to my 19-year-old self and be like, “You’re absolutely right. That thing is terrible. Shunning shouldn’t

45:47 exist,” which was like my hangup then as well as later. And don’t like get away from it. It’s dangerous. You know, it’s dangerous.

45:55 Yeah.

45:55 Because then I spent the next like 8 years of my life deconstructing while still being wrapped up in the doctrine

46:02 and the culture of it all, which was very unhealthy for me. But yeah, I think just more of like a you’re on the right track kind of thing.

46:10 I I think it would help our listeners to know the sort of time gap, you know,

46:15 from now and you know until you since when you left. How long’s it been?

46:20 Yeah. 2008 is when I like cut ties completely and um I was 19. That was I was 27 then. So I

46:28 was 19. I was like year 2000. It’s now 45 26. So, it’s been 18 years, almost 18

46:36 years since I fully disconnected from that culture. And it it sometimes takes people that long or longer. Some people spend

46:44 decades unwinding it. And some never fully do it.

46:47 And I think it’s important to fully do it,

46:49 fully take down the framework that’s been built inside of you by someone else and then rebuild kind of from a a solid

46:56 foundation of like skepticism and curiosity and research. in a sense figure out kind of where you want to be.

47:03 Yeah. Try on some different identities,

47:05 try on some different ways of life for a while. Yeah.

47:07 Like it’s a clothing you don’t have to wear it forever, but just like do something else and like make it a a new routine that you’re kind of excited about and then if you don’t like it, you can shed it later.

47:16 I really like that.

47:18 So thinking about your entire recovery,

47:24 if you had to name one thing that supported you the most and that can be a person, it can be an organization, it can be some kind of self-help technique,

47:33 you know, grounding, breath work. What helped you the most in your recovery over over that period?

47:39 I’ll name a few things. Meditation’s been really good. I went from with Sam Harris’s Waking Up app, which is like a

47:47 meditation app, but it’s like from another religious, no religious context at all. He’s basically like the spiritual atheist, if you will,

47:54 self-proclaimed. And I thought the app was really helpful and good for an atheist or someone who’s like, I’m so done with faith groups. And then I did

48:01 hire a professional. I found so I’ve discovered the recovering.org and they have another group called secular

48:09 therapy.org or where they vet they vetted like a thousand therapists on earth that have like passed their more rigorous

48:16 tests than like any university. And um I found someone on there that was like I specialize in post religious therapy and

48:25 they use a technique called um well they use ESMR. No, EDMR. Yeah.

48:33 Yeah. Not ASMR. EDMR. Yeah.

48:35 Use the finger. Yeah. a finger going back and forth and you’re like it’s bilateral stimulation so it can be just like tapping on your legs or your

48:43 arms or something like that or you’re watching a finger or you’re watching you can just Google like yeah EDMR ball

48:51 oh it’s EMDR sorry we all got it wrong okay EMDR we’ll get there some I don’t remember what it stands for but basically it’s a ball that goes back and

48:59 forth and the idea is that your eyes tracking it and you’re thinking of and I guess she would say you should do it with a professional because it can bring

49:08 up all kinds of absolutely stuff. Yeah.

49:11 Um maybe eventually you could do it yourself. But the idea is like you’re coming up with a you have an issue you’re trying to dive into and like explore. You watch the ball while

49:19 thinking about that whatever thoughts come up almost like a dream state and then like all right what came up for you and then you talk about it and then like all

49:26 right let’s do some more of the ball thing. Yeah.

49:29 Um one last I found that really helpful. Sorry,

49:34 we’re slowly running out of time, which is a real shame because I’ve talked to you for hours.

49:40 What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

49:43 Well, it’s everywhere. The cultic mindset, the cultic techniques are everywhere in the world in every group of human beings.

49:51 Someone’s doing something unhealthy.

49:52 Whether it’s at your work in the hierarchy of work or the hierarchy of your religious organization you go to, um the baking club you’re a part of,

50:00 whatever the thing is, people can be manipulative. Yeah.

50:03 And if you if you think that you couldn’t be susceptible to a cult,

50:07 you’re absolutely wrong. Really smart people get wrapped up in cultish groups because they are we’re all seeking community and they are great at

50:16 providing that for you. Um, and if you find someone who’s left a cold, you could ask them for wisdom that they’ve gained from this harrowing experience

50:25 that they successfully navigated, which you might be susceptible to because you’re ignorant of it. Yeah.

50:30 Um, it’s not to say you’re ignorant as a derogatory. You just might use No, that’s that’s how it works, you know. Yeah. That’s beautifully said. Yeah.

50:39 Well, we’re with that where we we we now wrap up another episode of Unspun, unraveling the threads of cult recovery.

50:48 A huge a huge thanks to you, Scott. Um I’m sure your story will inspire um and give help to many people. Thanks a lot

50:56 for uh for being here. Thank you for spending Yeah. Thank you for spending your time with us uh from from over in the States. Where is WI anyway?

51:06 Oh, sorry. Yeah, WI in my is my home state of Wisconsin. It’s right in the center north of USA in the Great Lakes region, lakes and forests country.

51:15 We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re grateful you trusted on us enough to listen. Unspending these stories

51:22 takes courage to speak, to listen, and to feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself.

51:28 Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to. You are not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who’s quietly doing their

51:37 healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.

0:15 Welcome to Unspun, unraveling the threads of cult recovery, one thread at a time. I’m Alisa. And I’m Jaya.

0:22 And we are two friends and fellow cult survivors creating the resource we wish we’d had when we were leaving our cult.

0:29 This is a safe, warm, and welcoming space for those rebuilding their lives after leaving cults or high-control groups.

0:35 It’s a serious topic treated with the levity and humor needed to heal and thrive.

0:40 We will be discussing sensitive subjects, so please prioritize your well-being while listening.

0:46 Now, let’s get started. Pull up a seat and let’s start unraveling the threads of recovery together.

0:57 Welcome to Unspun. This podcast exists because so many people carry untold stories about growing up in, joining, leaving, or questioning cults.

1:07 We share honest conversations with people who have untangled themselves from restrictive belief systems, harmful communities, and environments that once shaped their identity.

1:25 Our purpose is to create a living resource, a place where people can come for understanding, validation, and pathways to support.

1:30 Whether you’re newly questioning, recently out, supporting someone you love, or years into rebuilding your life, this space is for you.

1:39 We aim to reduce shame on a lived experience and remind you that you are not alone.

1:46 So, tonight I’m here solo. I’ll just introduce you to Laura, who is tonight’s guest. Laura was recruited into Shincheonji, a Korean Christian cult in Auckland at the age of 27 and was a member for 5 years, giving up her job, savings, and distancing herself from friends and family.

2:03 She has been out for over 5 years now and has slowly rebuilt her life, rediscovering who she is—from running a marathon to taking hip hop classes, dipping her toes into the world of dating apps, traveling, and moving back to her hometown of Christchurch.

2:23 She has spoken out about her experience over the past few years in the hope that others can avoid being recruited and so current members also know there is life after leaving. It’s really amazing to have you here, Laura, and thanks for coming along.

2:41 Thanks very much for having me.

2:43 You’re welcome. First up, I was wondering if you could tell us just a little bit about you now.

2:48 Sure. Um, so I’m living in Christchurch at the moment. I live in Christchurch with my sister. We have a house together. I work in HR and I spend my time reading, going for walks, going to the gym, and dance classes. I like getting into crafts. I just like to do a lot of different things with my time.

3:15 Yeah, for sure. Um, what were you looking for in your life when you first encountered the group, and what did they offer that made you feel like it was the right place?

3:24 Well, it was a very gradual process and very deceptive recruitment to begin with. So, I didn’t know exactly that I was getting into anything. But in my life at that time, I was a Christian attending church and I wasn’t very satisfied in my faith.

3:42 I was very anxious about my status as a Christian, not feeling like I knew what God’s will was. And so I couldn’t do it cuz I didn’t know what it was. And I wasn’t really happy with the community at my church; I felt like it was quite superficial and I just felt very distant from it all and was really struggling, basically.

4:03 And I found it hard to talk about this with other people cuz they all seemed so into it. So yeah.

4:13 And it was at that time when I met this very lovely girl who was new to the country and to my church, and she befriended me and I started doing a Bible study with her and her flatmate.

4:27 Ultimately ended up leading me to Shincheonji. Long story with that.

4:32 That’s interesting though cuz they call it the “cuckoo cult,” and I guess that’s part of what happened in a way.

4:40 I’ve never heard that!

4:41 Haven’t you? How exciting. I’ll explain it if you like. I guess what I heard was that they would go to other churches and befriend members of the other church and then kind of pull them out into Shincheonji.

4:57 Yes, that’s exactly what they do. Yeah, that’s what they did to me. And that makes them the cuckoo cult. Okay, yeah, cuz that’s how cuckoo birds operate, right?

5:07 I didn’t know that. Add that to my vocabulary. Interesting.

5:12 Yeah. So I guess what did they offer you that made it feel like the right place?

5:17 So in the Bible study initially, and with this girl that I met at church, she felt very genuine and I was able to talk with her about things. She related to me about all of my struggles that I had with Christianity.

5:37 And then when we joined a bigger group, which happened only about a month after I’d started doing Bible studies with just her and her flatmate, there was only six of us who were learning together and we just formed a very close bond. It just felt like I had that community that I’d been missing.

5:55 And they also in their teachings, they were very certain about everything. They were not wishy-washy at all. And it felt like I was getting what I needed, which was that I was going to learn exactly what God’s will was.

6:08 Yeah, I was learning the Bible in a way I’d never learned it before. It really scratched an itch that I had and made me feel like I was on the right path.

6:21 Yeah, that makes sense. Would you be able to describe a typical day inside the group and how its rules or teachings influenced your thoughts and actions?

6:33 Yes. So I mean our days varied a lot, but maybe a typical day… I was a teacher, so most of my days would revolve around teaching students. I was also a full-time worker, meaning that I had given up my worldly job to be a worker for Shincheonji without pay, of course.

6:49 So we had a morning meeting at 9:00 a.m. Sometimes we would have meetings before that. The 9:00 a.m. meeting was like a video call with our tribe leader in Korea to give us “mindset.” He called it mindset training; it was called Daily Bread.

7:09 Anyway, and then after that, we’d have meetings to make our plans for the day for evangelism. If we had lessons with students, we’d be meeting with everyone that was attending and make our plans—basically, what were we going to teach them? Or if someone was going to meet a “fruit” or a new recruit, what they would talk about and how they would progress them towards the goal of making them a member. It was all very planned, very strategic.

7:39 And yeah, then we would go out and do all of these meetings. As a teacher, I would have just meeting after meeting with my one-on-one students during the day.

7:52 And then in the evenings, I would be preparing for and then taking part in our group classes, which we would have every evening. And those would go from about 6:00 p.m. to 10:00 p.m., including socializing time before and after.

8:06 And then we would have meetings after that again to discuss how the class went and what we’ll do next time. And then in between all of that, if you had any spare time, you have to evangelize, study for tests, or prepare for your lessons.

8:22 Basically, you shouldn’t have any spare time, or you feel guilty if you had some that you weren’t using on Shincheonji-related things. There was plenty to do that you could fill your entire day, usually until like 1 or 2 a.m.

8:38 Doesn’t sound like you got a lot of sleep.

8:40 No. So, very hard to question anything. You’re just trying to get through the day. You’re just surviving, really. We also didn’t eat well cuz we didn’t have a lot of time or a lot of money.

8:56 The way that it influenced me… I felt stressed constantly, but I also felt full of purpose because I felt that what I was doing was meaningful. I really enjoyed teaching, but at the same time, you’re never good enough. If anyone didn’t believe or they fell away, then it falls on you as the teacher, right?

9:15 That was really difficult. You can never feel like you’ve reached the pinnacle. You’re always striving. And you’re never good enough. So that was very difficult.

9:30 And so that kind of influenced how you felt about yourself, like you were never reaching the top or you were never good enough.

9:39 Yeah. And I mean, you can’t have a positive self-image cuz that’s “arrogant.” So you always have to be humble, and even if you’re doing very well, you have to say, “Oh, yes, but I could do better.”

9:53 What was the specific moment, the turning point that made you realize something was wrong and planted the seed of doubt in your mind?

10:04 For me, during 2020, Shincheonji just stopped working altogether. Because of that, I had time to sleep and eat well and even just do normal human things which I hadn’t done in years. I also had my own bedroom, which I hadn’t had since I joined.

10:28 With this extra time and space, I noticed more things. I noticed inconsistencies with the leader Man-hee Lee’s teachings. He would say one thing and then he’d say something else later on, and I would just be like, “Wait a second, that doesn’t make any sense.”

10:43 And it wasn’t like I planned to leave the group or anything, but I was just noticing and I would quietly ask other people what they thought about that. And yeah, I suppose laying the foundation. Those would have been my first doubts, but I wouldn’t have called them that really—more like ponderings or wonderings.

11:00 Just thinking for myself just a little bit. Cuz you got to eat and have some sleep. Those are powerful things.

11:08 They are. And it’s often a powerful way of controlling people. Definitely.

11:16 Can you walk us through the actual process of leaving? Was it a planned departure or a spontaneous escape? And who, if anyone, did you reach out to first?

11:31 So, it was kind of planned, but it also happened very quickly. My friend who had been a worker in New Zealand but had moved back to South Africa, she reached out to me to say she was planning to leave and that she didn’t believe in God anymore.

11:54 This was a complete shock to me. But after initially shutting it all down and thinking, “That would just never be me. I would never, no matter what, I’d never leave,” about one day later I was like, “Well, actually, I’ve never questioned the Bible.”

12:15 I guess I felt like I had questioned Shincheonji, but I hadn’t questioned the Bible which Shincheonji was based on. And I thought, well, I’ve lived my whole life basing it around this book but I’ve never really interrogated this book, and I feel like I need to.

12:31 So, I got out a bunch of books from the library and listened to some podcasts and watched some YouTube videos, and took about 3 days. Then I was like, “Oh, I know I don’t believe.”

12:46 It was the first time I had looked at it with a genuinely open mind, willing to accept whatever I found. So I decided that I just can’t be in Shincheonji and not believe, even if it means I know everyone’s going to cut me off.

13:06 I decided that I was going to do it in the right way, even though I could have just left, but I wanted to show that I tried because that was really important. I thought, at least maybe they’ll think about it if I show that I tried. They won’t be able to discount it quite as easily.

13:24 So, I went and asked them questions—the leader at the time, and then we also had another leader in Korea—and I met with both of them, and they couldn’t answer my questions. I met with them multiple times, and I just could see how easily the whole thing fell apart. I was like, “Well, this is helpful actually because the smallest poke at the foundations and it actually doesn’t stand up.” It starts crumbling.

13:51 So I felt more certain than ever that it was the right decision to leave. And I had reached out to a friend of mine earlier that year. I initially cut her off after joining Shincheonji, but I had reached out to her during my questioning thinking like, “Oh, was that actually the right decision? If you want people to join this group, you can’t just cut them off cuz they’re not going to think it’s a good group.”

14:22 So, I had reached out to her, and then now that I wanted to leave, I had a person—because actually I didn’t have anyone besides her outside of the group in Auckland. She offered that I could stay at her house if I needed to, which I did because I had nowhere to go.

14:44 I did do that cuz I lived with members, and it was a lot to have to figure out, moving to a random person’s house. I was so grateful to have a place to go.

15:00 I slowly moved things from my house because I didn’t want them to take all my books off me. I snuck them over to her house just quietly so they couldn’t take them. After 3 weeks after I had initially decided to leave, I left. It was quite fast in many ways.

15:24 Very fast, but also not fast enough because once I decided to leave it was really intolerable to be there and I couldn’t pretend that I believed. And then the members… as soon as they know that I’m doubting, they’re watching me and reporting on everything that I say and do, and that is just a terrible feeling. So I wanted to get out of there.

15:46 So it’s quite a culture of reporting on each other. Is that right?

15:51 Yeah. If you’re doing anything that doesn’t meet their expectations—basically if it seems like you’re causing doubts in other people or you’re doubting yourself—then yeah, you would get reported on. It’s encouraged; they’ll label it as helping your brothers and sisters, you know, “If they need some help then you need to tell someone so they can get some help.”

16:16 But of course, it’s spying and it’s reporting, and it means that you never feel like you can actually say how you truly feel.

16:27 In those first few weeks or months on the outside, what was the most disorienting or surprising thing you had to confront about the real world?

16:38 I had been recruited as an adult, so it wasn’t that I didn’t know what the world was like. But I do remember I went out for dinner with my friend who I was staying with—it was her birthday just like two days after I’d left. We went out to celebrate her birthday with her, her husband, and two of their friends.

17:04 I felt so overwhelmed just going to this dinner and listening to them talking. I didn’t know what to talk about. I didn’t know what to order. I just felt like I didn’t know how to be a normal human being. I was just panicking, basically, and I was very surprised because I thought it would be easy just to go back to normal. I knew how to be a person in the world, I had been one, but it was harder than I thought.

17:27 I just remember that moment of just floundering in the world. Mostly socially, because I just felt I had this massive thing that happened to me that I was deeply ashamed of and didn’t want to talk about, but then what *could* I talk about? I had nothing, cuz that was my whole life for the previous 5 years.

17:54 Like the more things that I did, the more things I had to talk about, and so it became easier over time. Then I became more comfortable with my cult experience, that I wasn’t ashamed of it—which is also why I’m here. I’m obviously not ashamed of it anymore.

18:07 I guess it would be really strange if people were like, “Well, what have you been up to?” and you’re kind of like, “Well… exactly.” You don’t always want to go there, but then where can you go? You haven’t done anything else for the last 5 years, which is a long time, really, isn’t it?

18:27 Yeah. So I can only imagine how people feel who actually grow up in cults. That must be so much harder. What was the very first step you took towards healing?

18:34 I read a lot of books. I did reach out to some counselors, but I found them very unhelpful. So I just resorted to educating myself through books.

18:53 What was unhelpful, can I ask?

18:55 So I tried two. One of them said that she knew exactly how I felt and she had grown up in the Catholic Church, and so she basically just projected all of her own experience and assumed that was what it must have been like for me, right? Which it wasn’t. I just felt like, “I don’t want to argue with you that that wasn’t what it was like,” and it just wasn’t a good fit.

19:19 And the second one just didn’t really talk. She was very obviously expecting me to talk, but I didn’t know how to “do” counseling. I hadn’t been to counseling before. I was like, “I don’t know what to do with this.” So, I didn’t find that very helpful either.

19:36 I did eventually find a very helpful counselor who had cult experience and she was great. Unfortunately, she’s passed away now, but she actually helped quite a few of my friends who left Shincheonji as well.

19:48 What was it about her that was good, or what was helpful for you?

19:53 Well, I think her understanding of coercive control was a massive part of it because she just knew what it was like. She had also been recruited into a cult as an adult and had left, and she had done research into cults. So yeah, she was very helpful with understanding the psychology, which I didn’t understand at all.

20:18 The first time I learned about the actual definition of a cult was like three months after leaving, and it blew my mind. It was very helpful because suddenly I could see the word “cult” was not about beliefs, but it was about behavior and control, and that wasn’t something that I had understood before.

20:36 I think that’s a very, very important piece of information for ex-cult members and current members alike.

20:44 For sure. So, it sounds like she had a really grounded understanding of the mechanics of how cults work.

20:53 Yeah, she did. And she also just had a really warm and gentle manner; she was like a grandmother figure. I just felt really supported by her and she was exactly what I needed at the time.

21:09 That’s wonderful, isn’t it? It makes you feel safe, which means a lot when you feel very vulnerable. You need to feel safe to be able to get anywhere, I think.

21:41 Beyond just escaping, what was the biggest challenge you faced in reclaiming your sense of self?

21:49 I had grown up in Christianity. So when I left Shincheonji, I also left Christianity. I felt kind of like I had no idea who I was because I had built my whole identity on being a Christian and following God’s will. I always thought that I wanted to be a missionary or do something for God, and then now I’m like, “Well, what do I do now?”

22:13 It’s just me, and I didn’t know what parts of my personality were me and what parts were my Christian upbringing. I think that’s probably going to be a long process; I don’t think I’m done. But what I did was I just tried things. I went to lots of stuff—classes and workshops—and tried different hobbies, met new people, and just tried to pay attention to what felt good.

22:45 And that was a lot of fun. I maybe did too many things cuz I’m not good at moderating, right? Giving myself time to rest, which is also a habit from Shincheonji. But I think it’s still something that I do—try to be open to new experiences and pay attention to how they feel for me.

23:04 Same with work. I didn’t really know what on earth I wanted to do for a career because it had never been important to me before. I was like, “Well, maybe now I actually need to have one.” I tried multiple different things and I studied a couple of things and decided both of them were not really what I wanted. Then I just fell into a job that I quite like, and I’m enjoying it for now. I think it’s just staying open and paying attention.

23:42 I like that. So part of your strategy was to just try things to see what you liked and didn’t like.

23:54 Yeah. Basically, I pushed myself to get out of my comfort zone because my comfort zone would probably just be staying in my bedroom, and that’s not very healthy. I was quite lonely as well when I left. I didn’t have a lot of friends; I just had that one person on the outside. While a few other members did leave—so we had a little support group informally, which was lovely—I still really needed to build a support system. So going out and doing things helped with that.

24:24 Because I guess if you like something and you’re hanging out doing that, then those people like it too and you’ve got something in common. And then that’s how you build the relationships that supported you. Is that right?

24:40 Kind of. It took a while because I wasn’t very open to begin with, but it still helped. Even just being around other people who are nice and friendly was a helpful thing. It took time for me to trust people again; that’s something that comes from Shincheonji because people are reporting on you and you don’t feel like you can trust anybody, even your friends. Because the minute you start to doubt, they turn on you.

25:10 And also, some of the friend-making tools that normal people would use are infiltrated by Shincheonji. Things like Meetup and apps like Bumble BFF—there are Shincheonji members all over those things. So I felt really nervous to go to a Meetup group if I didn’t know who was going to be there, because I felt like I just couldn’t deal with that confrontation or the rejection of them ignoring me. But going to a class, they normally wouldn’t pay for a class cuz they don’t have any money. So in doing that, I could almost guarantee that they weren’t going to be there. I felt a lot more comfortable doing that.

26:05 Right. So you deliberately picked places they weren’t going to be.

26:10 Yeah. That I hoped they weren’t going to be. Having the other ex-members that left a few months after me was also really important. We would meet up quite regularly and encourage each other and share our struggles. I think I wouldn’t be anywhere near where I am without having that. It was a couple of years where we were quite a tight group; we went on holiday together and it was so nice. No one else could understand, but they could, and we could just talk about all the terrible things and all the funny things. We just counseled each other, basically.

27:04 Finding some peer support—if you can get it—there’s nothing like it. It’s great that you had those people around you. You did an amazing job pushing yourself to get out there.

27:37 It took time. I didn’t always succeed. Sometimes I did stay in my room, but yeah, that’s okay. You’re going to have good days and bad days.

27:53 If you could give one piece of advice to a person who has just left a similar high-control group, what would be the first thing you’d tell them to do?

28:05 Well, one thing that I didn’t do that I really wish that I had done was take some time just to rest. And I do think there’s an element of privilege in that because you need support to be able to do that. My parents didn’t live in Auckland and I didn’t even tell them I’d left until a month later, but I could have. I could have gone home and taken some rest.

28:36 I think that would have been really good for me because I just threw myself into all of these activities trying to rebuild my life and make up for lost time. I realized much later that there is no timeline and it is okay. Everyone goes through stuff—maybe it’s not a cult, but there isn’t a timeline of when you have to achieve certain things. There’s nothing to be ashamed of. So, I really wish that I had just gone and had a rest. Let my body and my brain recover. And then, educating yourself about coercive control—that was a really important aspect of my recovery.

29:41 To share that stuff. Yeah.

29:45 One of the questions I’d asked someone a while back was about how, often when you’re in a cult, you lose that kind of connection with your body. You’re often separated from it cuz it’s seen as a “dirty” thing or something like that. Did you experience that?

30:00 I mean, I definitely overrode how I felt constantly because that’s what you did in Shincheonji. You should “overcome” your physical body, right? Always. So, I definitely struggled with that—actually listening to my body and how I was feeling. If I was exhausted, I’d just do something anyway. It just didn’t matter how my body felt. I think I’ve gotten a little bit more in touch with that as time’s gone on, but it isn’t something that comes naturally to me at all. I definitely can relate to that disconnection.

30:42 And I’m curious too, because I think you shared your story at Decult. How was that?

30:50 Well, very nerve-wracking! I was shaking like a leaf, but it was also very empowering. A lot of the other people at the conference, I think most of them were born into cults, right? And so I would like to use my story to help people prevent being recruited. I suppose if you stop the parent from getting recruited, then you’re stopping kids from being born into one. It’s one area where I can help because Shincheonji is really deceptive; they’re hard to spot.

31:25 So, yeah, I shared the recruitment methods of Shincheonji. But I think also just understanding the mindset behind cults and the way they think is really important for people on the outside to understand—what is going through someone’s mind as they’re being recruited. All the psychological tools that are being used on them… it’s really not someone’s fault for being recruited. It’s really hard to stand up under that.

31:55 Absolutely. If they know the things that you want or the things you’re vulnerable to, it is powerful stuff because they’re experts in manipulation.

32:08 Yeah, that’s right. And they believe that they’re doing it for your own good. They believe that they’re saving you, and so there’s nothing that you can really do to persuade them not to do it. I think also speaking out like that is taking your power back as well. Initially when I left, I was very afraid of being labeled a “persecutor.” I thought the only way I could keep in touch with people still in Shincheonji was if I didn’t speak out. But I soon realized it didn’t matter what I did; I was always going to be cut off and I was always going to be a “betrayer.” So, I might as well stop some other people from joining.

32:53 And was that the first time you’d shared your story?

32:58 I had been interviewed for articles, but mostly they didn’t use my real name. But I did also speak on Cult Chat before Decult. That was my first time very openly, with my own voice and my own name, speaking out. That was also very nerve-wracking, I bet. But again, I just hope that by sharing my story, I could help some other people. It makes it feel worth it. If I don’t talk about it, then I can’t help anybody else.

33:34 So for you, sharing your story is, in a way, giving back to the support that you had? Is that right?

33:44 I mean, it’s just trying to use my experience to prevent others from going through the same thing or help them get out a little bit sooner than they might have otherwise.

33:54 Yeah, that’s a much better way of putting it. You’ve got to have a certain amount of courage.

34:06 I don’t know—I didn’t always feel very courageous when I was doing it. I’m quite passionate about it, so that helps me to overcome my fear.

34:16 Have you done any other things in that way, like writing or other sharing?

34:25 I was interviewed for a documentary after Decult, so that was actually on camera. That was a very intense thing to do. I don’t know if I’ll do that again! But again, if it’s helpful, I guess that’s good. I’m not necessarily seeking out opportunities because I find it quite overwhelming if I’m doing too much. For example, the conference and the documentary were a bit too much cuz it was all at once. It’s important to me to also look after myself and not just throw myself into a new thing, but try to do this alongside rebuilding my life.

35:16 So, the way that I manage is I’ll pay attention if there’s an opportunity, but I’m not going to make it my entire life. I’m quite an “all or nothing” person, so I have to try to moderate myself.

35:43 That’s quite a skill, actually. Because you said before throwing yourself into something, you actually really consider where you’re at. Was there a way that you learned to do that?

36:02 I mean, I have just thrown myself into some things without considering anything—like when I first left, I immediately started training for a marathon! So moderation is a learned skill, not always easy. But I try to just focus on things that I know I like. It’s trial and error. Even last year, I did a bunch of classes all at once and found myself getting super overwhelmed because I had something on every single evening after work and I was like, “This is not what I need.” So, I don’t know that I’ve necessarily learned it yet, but I’m practicing.

36:44 One of the biggest things that happens to people in cults is they break down your boundaries and you become “at one” with the cult. Is that something you found?

37:00 Yeah, I really struggled with people-pleasing and not thinking about what I wanted in terms of my relationships. I would often just sacrifice myself. If there’s a situation where someone needs to compromise, I’ll just be that person. And it’s really hard for me not to be that person. I think that’s not just the cult, but also my Christian upbringing—just being “selfless.” Sometimes you’ve got to have a self! Boundaries can be a problem, but also I’ve found that I have a lot of “walls” in terms of not wanting to let anyone anywhere near me.

37:46 So you put walls up and boundaries down. What you need to do is lower the walls and bring the boundaries up.

37:56 That’s a good way of looking at it. I guess you mentioned trust before—how has it been for you to rebuild trust with people?

38:26 I think it just took time. I opened myself up little by little to new people and nothing bad happened. So I did a bit more. Over time, when you open yourself up and it goes well, it encourages you to do a little bit more. And then you also get to know that other people let their walls down a little bit more and be a bit more vulnerable with you. That’s how you build relationships, so I guess you’re rewarded if you trust people a little bit.

39:08 And that’s how it should be. In Shincheonji, your friendships are fast-tracked in like a day or two. You’re jumping to the deep stuff very quickly and that’s unnatural. It’s actually normal for a friendship to take a long time to develop as you build trust. That was a helpful thing for me to realize—that it’s okay for me to take time. I don’t have to tell them my whole life story in the first meeting.

39:40 I think that is the thing—people who have been involved in cults tend to be able to share their whole story like a confessional, because you get used to “confessing.” Where actually, you just need to learn to have conversations.

40:02 I think it probably doesn’t help that people are very interested in cults and so they probably encourage that behavior. But yes, it should be a two-way street conversation.

40:16 Looking back at your journey from where you are now, what are you most proud of?

40:23 Maybe just the way that I have challenged myself to step out of my comfort zone. That has made a really big difference. I’m sure it’s sped things up because I’m able to learn quickly what works and what doesn’t. I’m quite a shy person, so it takes a lot of emotional energy to put myself out there. Also, things like rebuilding my financial life. I had absolutely nothing. I had a little bit in KiwiSaver from previous years, but other than that, absolutely nothing. I had to build up from zero, and now me and my sister bought a house together. That feels so good. I am very proud of that.

41:25 It was just luck in some ways—I fell into this job that I really like and there was no “strategic” thing I did to get there. I didn’t even know I’d like the thing I’m doing now, but I took an opportunity and I enjoyed it. I’m proud of what I’ve done with it.

41:54 It takes a lot of courage to put yourself out there when you’re in a vulnerable space and don’t want anyone to ask too many questions about your past—like that five-year gap on your CV.

42:08 Yeah, that’s a real problem. I just ended up putting the Shincheonji trust on my CV as a different name for an employer. I worked for them; it filled in the gap. A little life hack there!

42:28 What do you think a healthy life looks like for you today?

42:38 I think the thing I’m seeking most is balance. I struggle cuz I’m interested in a lot of things and I don’t know how to just do one thing at a time. But the ideal healthy life would be having the job that I like, having friends that I spend time with, and also having hobbies and things that I enjoy. And then some rest. Napping is so good! I really struggle with it, but I’m getting there slowly.

43:35 What would you like people to know about people who are leaving or escaping cults?

43:42 I think it looks different for everyone. But I would want people to know that it takes time. Some people around me were a bit frustrated when I didn’t criticize the group immediately after I left. It took a lot of time to digest and to understand what I had been through—to put it in a context separate enough from me that I was able to criticize it. Cuz when I left, I felt like criticizing it was criticizing *me*.

44:15 If you have someone in your life in that situation, just be there for them, be patient, and give them whatever they need cuz it’ll probably change over time. When you’re in a situation that is all-consuming, it’s very hard to have perspective. It takes distance to create space to reflect.

44:57 Yeah, and it’s also the education—understanding that I was manipulated. I didn’t actually join of my own free will cuz I didn’t even know what I was a part of. It’s all just a system set up to manipulate and control people. Understanding that gives you a sense of compassion for yourself and for others who were recruited.

45:39 It’s been amazing to have you here and I feel privileged to have had a chat with you about this. You’re very courageous sharing your story.

46:01 Thank you for having me. I think this is a really cool idea for your podcast and I hope it helps a lot of people.

46:13 That’s all we have for tonight. We will see you in our next session.

46:27 That brings us to the end of this episode of Unspun. We hope what we discussed today resonated with you. We’d love to hear your thoughts and recovery tips, so please reach out at unspun@uncult.support and follow us on Instagram at @un_spun.

46:47 All past episodes are available to stream anytime on planes.org.nz. And hey, a quick favor: please subscribe on your favorite podcast platform and leave us a review. It really helps other survivors find our community. Join us fortnightly on Tuesdays at 7:00 p.m. for a brand new episode broadcasting on 96.9 FM. Thanks for listening and until next time, be well.

0:01 Welcome to Unspun, unravelling the threads of cult recovery. Today our guest is Alisa Woodruff — co-host of this podcast, cult survivor, support group facilitator, and counsellor.

0:17 Hi Alisa, welcome to the show.

0:19 Awesome to be here, Jaya.

0:22 Can you give us, in a nutshell, your overall cult experience — what the group was, how you entered it, and ultimately how you left?

0:34 I was born into a cult called Subud. It began in the 1920s, but really gained popularity in the ’50s, ’60s and ’70s. It was started in Indonesia by a man called Bapak, and it centred on the belief that you could have a direct experience with God through a practice called the latihan.

1:07 My parents joined in the late ’60s, so I was born into it. We were directed to move to New Zealand, and I grew up with that influence. One of the difficult things for me was that there was quite a strong Muslim slant or culture within Subud. Although it said people from any religion could join, there was definitely an Islamic undercurrent. For instance, we would fast and observe Ramadan, women wore skirts, and I wasn’t allowed to wear jeans until I was about 12.

1:50 I always remember having a huge fear of doing things wrong. You were really shaped into being a certain way, especially as a woman. There was a strong purity culture around it — no sex before marriage, although these things weren’t always explicitly said. You just knew. You officially join when you’re 18, but if you’re born into it, you already know the rules and live by them.

2:45 You’re both a survivor and a therapist. How does your personal history with Subud inform the way you hold space for other survivors in therapy?

2:59 It’s a two-way street. I know what it’s like to come out of a cult and not know how to live. Growing up in it, I never learned how to manage money or emotions properly because everything was framed as God’s will. I didn’t develop my own identity — I developed one that made me the way Subud wanted me to be.

3:33 I see that in other survivors too. Often you lose your identity because you have to blend into the group identity. So for me, a lot of the work is helping people reconnect with their identity, or begin to build one if they never really formed it in the first place.

4:04 Are there things about that moment of realisation — the cultic “click” — that you understand as a survivor that a non-survivor therapist might miss?

4:19 Definitely. For example, people can have a lot of social anxiety coming out of a cult because there are so many situations they’ve never experienced before. Some people have lived very closed-off lives where the outside world was framed as dangerous. Because I have lived experience, I can often understand where that fear is coming from, and I can share some of my own experience, which people tend to find comforting.

5:43 You’ve mentioned that survivors often struggle with identity. How do you help them distinguish between their cult personality and their authentic self?

5:59 One of the biggest things is boundaries — or what I prefer to call limits. People often come out of cults with very few boundaries, which works well for the cult because it makes you easy to manipulate or coerce. If you can’t say no, you’ll do whatever the group needs you to do.

6:31 Once you leave, not being able to say no can put you in very dangerous situations, especially for women. So boundaries are often a really good place to start. What do they look like? What do they feel like? Once you start setting limits, you begin to learn who you are. You start to connect with your instincts around what feels right or wrong for you.

7:17 It’s not an easy journey, especially if you’re used to saying yes all the time or you’re terrified of how other people will react. But over time, it becomes one of the ways you learn who you are.

8:35 I want to talk a bit about Subud specifically. It’s often described as spiritual rather than religious, and it uses the latihan practice. How does recovering from a group like that differ from recovering from a more dogma-heavy cult?

8:57 That’s one of the tricky things about Subud. It claims there is no dogma, but there are Bapak’s talks and recordings, and people tend to follow them like dogma anyway. I’d say the spiritual practice itself isn’t necessarily the issue. For some people it may even feel similar to meditation and seem helpful on the surface.

9:28 What’s harder to recover from is the politics, the group dynamics, the power structures, and the influence people have over each other. So it’s more about the institutional structure than the practice itself.

9:50 For many survivors, the body holds the trauma of a group’s practices. How do you approach somatic, body-based recovery in your work?

10:00 I use that a lot, depending on the person. When someone is anxious or in crisis, they often operate mainly from their head. All the fear, panic and drama live there. One of the therapeutic tasks is helping people become more attuned to their bodies, because our bodies often give us clues before things like panic attacks happen.

10:49 If you’ve been brainwashed or subjected to coercive control, it can be really hard to reconnect with your body, and it takes time. Somatic work can help with that — using the body as part of the therapy process.

11:18 So things like body scanning, grounding and breathwork?

11:23 Absolutely. On the surface, some of these techniques can look similar to spiritual practices, but the intent is very different. They’re grounded in psychology and science rather than spiritual hierarchy. Sometimes it starts even more simply: walking, running, being in nature, listening to music — anything that helps people get out of their heads and reconnect with their body.

12:57 We spend so much time in our heads in cults.

13:03 Exactly. And I’ve noticed that many people end up with chronic or long-term illnesses, often linked to unprocessed trauma. The body carries it. If emotions are buried or never processed properly, they can show up physically over time.

15:11 I want to talk about the process of unspinning. What was the first thread you had to pull on to start unravelling your own involvement with Subud?

15:29 It was intense. My first husband and I had two children, and when we divorced he wanted custody. His argument was that I was part of a cult. So I left, thinking that would solve the problem. In that sense, I didn’t leave completely of my own free will. I left for my children.

16:04 But then I basically swept the whole experience under the carpet. For the next 20 years I lived in a kind of unconscious mess — alcohol, drugs, extreme sports, different partners, lots of chaos and drama.

16:43 Recovery isn’t a straight line. What do you say to survivors who feel like they’ve unravelled their trauma, only to get spun out again by a trigger or a new relationship?

16:57 What I know from my own trauma and from working with others is that things are revealed when we’re ready to deal with them. You might work through one aspect of your experience and feel clearer, and then a year later something else happens and a whole new layer appears.

17:28 That can be frustrating, but I think as you go further on the journey, it gets less frightening. It’s a bit like a spiral: from above it looks like you’ve come back to the same place, but if you look from the side, you’ve actually moved upward. Each time you revisit something, it becomes a little easier to hold.

18:52 What did you have to learn for the first time after recognising your cult experiences?

19:02 For me, it hasn’t been linear because I buried it all for so long. I also went into recovery from drugs and alcohol, so that became part of the larger healing process. I never really talked about being raised in a cult — even with counsellors. It was so buried and hidden, and I was too ashamed.

20:17 Even after leaving, I was still seeking. I still wanted community. Even six years ago I was looking at different communities to join. I always had this desire to know how to live my life properly, and I think that comes from not having built a strong sense of self or self-determination as a child.

20:54 One of the biggest things I’ve had to learn is how to make decisions for myself. For many years I relied on the group, my family, or someone close to me to make big life decisions. Eventually I realised I needed more space from my family so I could start making my own choices — whether they turned out right or wrong.

21:36 For me, making decisions carried this fear of God — that if I chose wrong, there would be terrible consequences. That fear was huge. So one of my biggest learnings has been making decisions that are right for me, and tolerating the uncertainty that comes with that.

22:12 How did leaving affect your family relationships?

22:20 Surprisingly, that part has been more okay than it is for some people. There have definitely been robust discussions since I got involved with Uncult, Decult and Unspun, and since I’ve become more vocal about cult recovery. But in general my family are supportive, and they’re not very involved anymore. That said, I’m still nervous about sharing publicly because family dynamics can be complicated.

23:26 What helps you live your life now? What keeps you focused and present?

23:37 For a long time it was adventure sports — climbing, mountain biking, mountaineering, anything that pushed my body to the edge. I loved it because it forced me into the present moment. I also loved feeling physically strong as a woman, which was something I didn’t feel as a child.

24:26 These days I’m a bit more relaxed, but I still climb and do some mountaineering. I also paint. Art has been fantastic for me. It gives me solitude, colour, expression. I’ve recently done a postgraduate diploma in creative arts therapy, so working in that way has become very meaningful too.

25:00 You use art therapy in the Uncult recovery group and with clients. Can you say a bit more about what art therapy is and how it helps?

25:13 I use it in a fairly casual way. In the recovery group, I’ll open up some materials and people make art while we talk. What’s surprised me is what comes out. Often, when we share at the end, the art is deeply connected to the conversation we’ve been having, even if people didn’t realise it while they were making it.

25:53 One thing I’ve noticed is that a lot of people draw eyes. That feels really significant — many have been watched their whole lives in cult settings. For me personally, I made a lot of work with veils, spiderweb-like forms, and wrapped objects. Looking back, that was all about feeling bound.

26:56 That links with the idea of “bounded choice” — that in a cult you appear to have choices, but they’re restricted by the rules and structures of the group. Art helped me express that without having to explain it all first.

27:40 What I love about art therapy is that it can bypass conscious thinking. Things slip out onto the page. It gives access to emotions and experiences quite quickly and quite deeply. That can be powerful, and sometimes confronting, but also really useful.

29:41 You often invite people to “create ugly.” Why?

29:52 Because as soon as people hear the word “art,” they often say, “I can’t do art.” They think it has to look pretty. But this isn’t about making something for the wall — it’s about expression. If I tell people to make it ugly, it takes away that pressure and gives them permission to just let something out.

30:24 That connects with something we talk about a lot: making space for ugly feelings too.

30:36 Exactly. In many cults people are taught to be calm, humble, spiritual, godly — and there isn’t much room for anger or other difficult emotions. In my experience, anger was a huge issue. I was so angry for many years and had no understanding of where it came from or how to manage it. I felt like a terrible person because I couldn’t regulate it.

31:58 Looking back, I can see that I had no guidance around emotions. Negative emotions weren’t processed — they were suppressed. But those emotions are powerful, and if they aren’t expressed or worked through, they get buried and then explode. Of course I was angry. I had spent my whole childhood being formed into something I didn’t want to be.

33:14 What do you wish the general public understood about life after a cult?

33:29 I want people to understand how hard it is to leave and how long the journey is afterwards. Recovery happens psychologically, emotionally, spiritually, physically and practically. There’s so much to learn, and there’s almost no support.

34:22 I also want people to know that some of the most intelligent people I’ve met have been involved in cults. Cults don’t advertise themselves as cults. They show up as free meditation, free yoga, community, purpose, certainty. It’s a slow grooming process. Anybody can fall into a cult or cult-like situation.

36:21 Let’s talk about peer support and the work you do with Uncult Ōtautahi. Why is peer support such a vital ingredient that one-on-one therapy sometimes can’t provide?

36:54 One of the most devastating parts of leaving a cult is the loss of community. If you were raised in it, you may lose your family, friends, everyone. It’s incredibly isolating. On top of that, most people don’t want to tell others they’ve just left a cult. It feels humiliating and shameful.

37:35 Having a group of people you can talk to, have a cup of tea with, and share experiences with is hugely powerful. Peer support is so important in cult recovery because we do this together. We understand each other’s experiences in ways others often can’t.

38:30 It also creates a space where you can say something bizarre from your past and everyone just gets it. You can laugh together, feel understood, and move on without shame. That kind of validation is incredibly healing.

39:02 Are there common threads you see among survivors in the Uncult group, regardless of which group they came from?

39:19 I think one common thread is that we’re all trying to learn how to live life on life’s terms outside the cult. A lot of us struggle with ordinary reality after leaving. Another common thread is validation. Being able to finally speak about what happened and have other people recognise it as real is powerful.

40:23 The abuse and control of a cult often follow you when you leave because they continue in your inner voice — in the messages you say to yourself. A group helps challenge that. It reminds you that you’re not crazy, and that what happened to you was real.

41:19 For someone listening who is still tangled in cult influence, where is the safest place for them to start unspinning?

41:42 Start with people you trust who are outside the group — people who love you and won’t judge you. In New Zealand there are only limited resources, but there are some. There’s Uncult here in Christchurch, the Olive Leaf Network, the Religious Trauma Collective, and a few counsellors around the country.

42:40 If possible, seek counselling. Cult trauma is specific, but trauma is still trauma, and any good trauma-informed counselling is better than none. You don’t always need a cult specialist. A good GP can also make a huge difference, especially if you’re dealing with anxiety, sleep problems, or other health concerns.

44:35 There are also domestic violence services, refuge spaces, community organisations, and online supports. Help can be thin on the ground, but it does exist.

45:20 What does victory in recovery look like? Is it the absence of triggers, or something else?

45:44 I don’t think victory is the absence of impact. This experience still affects me every day — in how I think, how I make decisions, how I relate to myself. Maybe that’s especially true when you’re born into it. But I’m in a place now where I feel much more comfortable with myself than I ever have before. Looking after myself is part of the ongoing journey.

47:13 People also ask me what I believe now, and my answer is simple: I believe in being a good person. That’s enough for me.

48:32 Before we finish, what’s something you wish you could have told your younger self in recovery?

48:43 Be gentle. Be gentle with yourself. I came out of the cult hating myself and feeling driven to be perfect. I was fuelled by anger and rage. If I could do it again, I’d want to learn how to be kinder to myself and how to relax.

49:46 I really do think people coming out of cults struggle to relax. There’s often this compulsion to be endlessly productive, useful, worthy. Learning to rest, to be present, and to soften — those things matter.

50:40 I’d also say that when people leave, they need to think not only about where the safe people are, but also about who is toxic in their lives. Sometimes that includes family. Leaving a cult isn’t just a physical exit — it’s also about stepping away from relationships that continue the same patterns of judgment, control or harm.

51:24 Sometimes that exit has to be slow. For safety reasons, or because people are physically out but still mentally in. It can take time.

52:09 Well, we’ve reached the end of our time here. Thank you, Alisa, for sharing your story.

52:16 You’re so welcome.

52:17 It’s been amazing to hear more about your experience and to explore the intricacies of cult recovery. I’m really enjoying this journey with you, and I hope our listeners are too.

52:39 Yeah, so do I. I’m super excited.

52:41 Thank you.

0:00 Welcome to Unspun, our first interview.

0:03 I think you hold the privileged position of being our first interviewee. It’s pretty exciting to finally get the Unspun project off the ground, so welcome, Jaya. I’m really looking forward to hearing your story today. If it were me being interviewed, I’d imagine it would feel pretty scary, and I’m wondering if that’s how it is for you.

0:21 No, it’s really exciting. This is the first time I’ll have told my story in this format, and I’m really looking forward to it.

0:29 Great. From my understanding of your experience, you were part of three different cults, so it sounds like an incredibly long journey. Let’s start at the beginning. You were born into the Fourth Way cult. Through my research, it seems to be based on the teachings of George Gurdjieff, an Armenian mystic and philosopher. From what I can tell, there were groups built around this philosophy. Is that the same for your group, and can you give us an overview?

0:59 Yes, it was the same. It was one of the first English groups to use his teachings in that way. The cult was initially named the International Academy for Continuous Education and it was run by genuine academics and philosophers. It didn’t really start off as a cult. It started off as an alternative school for learning and, as with a lot of these things, proceeded to become a cult over time.

1:31 I’m just wondering if you could give us a brief sense of what it was like growing up in this cult, because you were born into it.

1:38 I had very little awareness that I was in a cult as a child. The children were fairly much ignored and left to their own devices. The cult really didn’t involve the children or indoctrinate them to a large degree. We were abandoned, if you like. We played with each other — not too much different from normal kids — but there were aspects of life that you knew were different from, say, the kids in the primary school or the village nearby.

2:12 In terms of our practices around ecology and recycling and all that sort of stuff, we did all of that, and that was seen as hippie and weird in the local village. We were definitely the outsiders in our community.

2:30 Right, yeah. I can imagine. What felt ordinary or unquestioned to you compared with growing up in some other way?

2:38 Well, as a child I knew there was something else going on. There was a lot of drug use, a lot of psychoactive drugs. There were lots of parties, big group gatherings, weddings — there was always something happening. If you were part of a church in the village or surrounding neighbourhoods, it might be a bit similar. But in Scotland it was a very dour landscape, if you like. They didn’t really have happy-clappy churches that went on picnics. You went to Sunday school, you went to church on Sunday, and that was it. That’s the community I grew up closest to. Their social cohesion was getting drunk together.

3:28 So I knew it was very different in the way we communed, in the way we reacted, in the way we worked together as a group.

3:37 Kind of a lot more outrageous compared to a conservative church-type thing?

3:44 Yeah, absolutely. It was all about free love and all of that stuff — very much the zeitgeist of the early ’70s and late ’60s. That’s why I say there were a lot of drugs going around. Everyone was smoking pot, and that was commonplace. It wasn’t hidden at all. I grew up aware that there was this thing people smoked and it made them feel better, made them feel nice. But I never tried it until my teens.

4:16 And in terms of the philosophies, how did that impact you as a child? Is there a memory of that?

4:24 Oh yeah, there’s a lot. My father took the core tenets very seriously. He was a stoic man, a very solid, no-nonsense kind of guy. The family referred to him as “the rock” because he was immovable and impenetrable — and stubborn. One of the core tenets of the Fourth Way cult was intentional suffering.

4:56 So basically, taking the hard way, making things harder for yourself. Instead of using a gardening tool, you’d use your hands — stuff like that. And that tended to get pretty extreme quite a lot. That principle was definitely instilled into us: hardship was a good thing, and not taking the easy way out all the time. Dad was really restrictive with stuff. It wasn’t that he wasn’t fun, but he took the practice seriously.

5:30 It did get to some extremes. I think because he was a child in the Second World War and experienced rationing, he had a very frugal mindset. I remember having to plead to have butter and jam on my toast. He was like, “You don’t need butter if you’ve got jam.” And I was like, “Dad, it’s not the war. We’re actually really well off and we don’t need to save money on butter.”

6:09 Can I ask about intentional suffering? If you experienced more suffering, did that lead to a higher spiritual awareness, or what was the purpose?

6:19 Yeah. The purpose was about building character, fortitude, resilience, but also transforming karma. They didn’t use those words, but that’s the language I’m familiar with today. It meant exactly the same thing: because of your hardship, you were gaining virtue, and through hardship you learned lessons about yourself. But I know of several cases where it led to the mental breakdown of people, and many left. Some people experienced forms of spiritual and psychological abuse through people pushing intentional suffering on others.

7:12 I found that to be the most damaging aspect of it, and it pervaded everything and everyone. For years, decades to come, those core principles stayed with people. I remember some really horrible times when an adult would freak out and have a meltdown. I saw that enough as a kid to know there was something darker about what was happening.

7:52 How do you feel that environment shaped how you understood yourself and the world around you?

8:00 Well, actually, it put me at a disadvantage. I lived in a fake world, surrounded by other people who all thought the same. I wasn’t deliberately isolated, but we were on a remote farm in the Highlands of Scotland, so we were isolated anyway. I didn’t realise how much it affected me until I’d left home much later.

8:36 The most damaging aspect of growing up was not having any boundaries. As a child, I was allowed to run around and do whatever I wanted. Because the cult said, “We’re the leaders of tomorrow. We’re special people,” and my mum would say, “You’re a special child,” I grew up believing I really was special. So I came out of the cult entitled. I expected everything just to come to me. I didn’t realise I had no social cues. I didn’t realise when I was being rude or overstepping boundaries.

9:20 Those things were accepted within the group because the group was very open about debate and experience. Sharing your ideas was encouraged. If I said something direct, they wouldn’t be shocked — it was the culture. And if you challenged an adult, they would treat you like an adult, not like a child.

9:55 That really warped my sense of who I was. I thought I was better than other children because I got spoken to like an adult. In some respects it was respectful — adults would take the time to explain things to you. But in terms of how to be a kid and a normal person in society, they were useless. No one told you the basics.

10:29 If I had trouble at school or something, I was always expected to sort it out myself. I wasn’t consciously told not to come to adults with my problems, but it was like: the adults are busy, so if you can deal with it yourself, do that. If I got bullied or something happened at school, I had to figure it out myself. It was quite stressful sometimes.

10:57 A lot of cults tend to treat children like mini adults. I get the feeling it was like that.

11:05 Oh yeah, absolutely. Your childhood was what you made of it, not what your parents gave you.

11:15 So they weren’t the ones responsible, essentially.

11:22 They were and they weren’t. They never did anything intentionally harmful to me. But on the flip side, they were completely naïve and we were often left with other adults we didn’t know while they went out partying or did whatever they were doing. It happened a lot. I often remember waking up in an unfamiliar household and thinking, where am I?

11:46 We were taught to trust all of the adults within the group, and that led to a lot of abuse. My brothers were abused. I was abused. I know of at least half a dozen other children who were abused, just because of being put in someone’s care who you didn’t know.

12:01 From what I know about people being raised in cults, when you don’t learn boundaries, you don’t learn how to say no to anyone.

12:11 That’s right. And that puts children in a really dangerous situation. The group had this view that it takes a village to raise a child. But to a child that just means every single adult is an authority figure. So who do you trust? It was very difficult navigating that. And you definitely didn’t say no to any adult.

12:35 How long were you and your family involved?

12:44 My parents got involved in the late ’60s. I was born in Sherborne, England, and then we moved that year up to Scotland with a group of other people from the cult. They built a series of farms next to each other. Some of the cult went to America in 1975 and started up a place called Claymont. Others who didn’t want to go to America joined Mum and Dad and bought farms all next to each other in Scotland, so there was still the community.

13:34 Looking back, I remember ceremonies and things on other farms, like sun dances. There was a lot of dancing — free-form dancing — and then there were these things called the Movements. That was from 1975 until 1985, when we moved to America to join the cult there. I went to school for two years and it was then that my dad, mostly my dad, became disillusioned with the group. The current leader had passed away, and they asked him if he would be the new leader. He said absolutely not. He lost interest, and we moved back to Scotland. That was the beginning of our process of leaving the group and living a new life.

14:34 From what I know about your story, it wasn’t just a clean ending. There was always a search for ways to live life differently. What happened after that?

14:49 I guess I left the group completely when I left home at 17. The desire to search for enlightenment or something out there — I don’t think I was even conscious of it. It was so ingrained in me that it was just part of my life. I was naturally inclined to Buddhism. My godfather was a Buddhist monk, and I found it easy to understand. It didn’t have strange tenets like intentional suffering. It made sense to me.

15:27 I was in my early twenties at art school and started going to a meditation practice. Of course, free meditation practice is almost always a front for a cult. That Buddhist monastery actually pushed homosexuality as the preferred sexual encounter, basically just for men. They said homosexual sex for men was spiritually superior because there was no attachment to a family unit. I thought that was absurd. One of the so-called monks actually tried to come on to me, and I narrowly escaped that.

16:47 A few years later I was walking down Tottenham Court Road and a Scientologist accosted me with a personality test.

16:54 Lucky you.

17:01 My narcissistic self went, “Oh yeah, I’d like to know what I’m all about,” and I did the personality test. It was very accurate, to give them their due. But then they’d say, “It says here you have problems sleeping. We have a course that can help with that.” It was cheap enough that I thought, sounds like a bargain.

17:35 I wanted to fix myself. Some conscious part of me knew I was broken and I wanted to be a better person. I’d been out of the cult on my own for about five years and I was really struggling with relationships, with friends, with getting on with people. I wanted something to help fix me.

18:13 So, to fix the effects of the first cult, what I needed was another cult.

18:16 Yeah. I went down the Scientology rabbit hole for about six months and I was so excited about it that I wanted to tell my dad. I told him, “Come along, do the personality test.” His reaction was totally unexpected. He was furious. He thought it was a load of crap. I was shocked and disappointed because I wanted him to agree with me. But because he had such an aversion to it, I started looking at it differently. Then things started to happen that were dodgy as hell, and I realised he was right.

19:26 The only reason I got away from Scientology was because I broke up with my girlfriend, decided I needed to go snowboarding, and moved to New Zealand. That’s literally the reason I got away from Scientology the way I did. It was a narrow escape.

20:11 And sort of in between leaving Scientology and moving to New Zealand, my father discovered Falun Gong.

20:27 My understanding of Falun Gong is that it’s a Chinese movement founded by Li Hongzhi in 1992. Is that about right?

20:39 Yeah, that’s right. Its teaching is known as Falun Dafa, and it draws on the practices of Buddhism and Daoism, particularly meditation and breathing techniques, with the main principles being truthfulness, compassion, and tolerance.

20:56 Sounds great, right?

20:58 Yeah, it sounds amazing.

21:05 When Dad and I started, it was literally just exercises in the park. There’d be an hour of standing meditation with arm movements, then an hour of seated meditation, and that was it. There were no uniforms, no payments. It was all free. People came and went. You could talk to people if you wanted or just come and go. I liked that it was so free. No rhetoric, no dogma, no uniforms, no structure, no temple, no priests — nothing. I was like, “Yeah, this is what I want.”

21:43 Sounds like there was no pressure.

21:47 No pressure. It felt like a pure spiritual path. Dad felt the same way. He said, “It’s so simple, it must be powerful.” We were both convinced it was a really good practice. But after two years, in April 1999, the Chinese Communist Party cracked down on the practice in China and said it was a heretical cult.

22:22 Being foreigners, we couldn’t read the Chinese news, so we had to take everything second-hand from our Chinese friends. They were feeding us information and we thought we had to do something. So we started protesting and doing all this stuff, and before you knew it, it had become this whole other monster. It became a political human rights movement, and there was a lot of pressure. All of a sudden the focus wasn’t on the practice and cultivating yourself. The main priority was telling the world about the persecution.

23:03 I imagine the human rights element would have been quite attractive.

23:10 It was attractive to me. I loved that sort of thing. I went to my first protest when I was 16 — an anti-fascist protest in East London — so that appealed to me. But I hadn’t done my due diligence at all. The internet was embryonic at that time and there was very little information available. We got dragged into it, and it became everything I disliked about religion. People started wearing uniforms and you could buy trinkets, badges, hats, jackets — all of that. I couldn’t stand it.

23:58 I really thought the practice was about developing yourself, but all of a sudden it became this groupthink, “we must all do everything together” thing. The ironic part was that they were so anti-Chinese Communist Party and anti-communist everywhere, but as time went on the practice itself acted like a communist party. There was talk of spies and backstabbing and politics. I was like, what has this got to do with spirituality?

24:43 What was the most difficult thing for you about being in Falun Gong?

24:56 Looking back, it was the beliefs I acquiesced to that I didn’t really believe in. The cult was sexually repressive and believed that homosexuality was sexual deviancy. It would go further than that and say that homosexuals were subhuman. It had lots of conservative right-wing values and a lot of racism, although the racism was quite covert. The Chinese really did consider themselves superior to Westerners, and they would let you know it all the time.

25:54 They’d say, “You don’t understand because you don’t speak Chinese, so you don’t understand the deeper meaning behind the teachings.” To a degree they were right, because the translation mattered. For example, the word “tolerance” in English means one thing, but in Chinese the word can also imply conformity. And in the teachings he says you must conform as much as possible. I thought that meant conform to mainstream society, but he meant conform to being a practitioner.

26:24 There was this weaponisation of language. He could use one translation against Westerners and the original against Chinese practitioners to manipulate both. And he would retroactively change the teachings. Everything was online, and if he changed something in a previous book, you either had to destroy the book or paste in the new translation. At last count there were six translations of the main book. He could say whatever he wanted and claim that’s what he’d meant all along.

27:25 Toward the end, how did it impact you?

27:32 It unravelled me emotionally. I had to get a lot of therapy — although I didn’t get therapy until eight years after I left. I had a mental breakdown in 2017 and that led to a diagnosis of bipolar type 2.

27:54 Had you left at this stage?

28:02 Yeah. I left in 2012, and in 2017 I had an episode, got diagnosed, and started treatment. At that point I realised a lot of my extreme actions and impulsivity — traits connected with bipolar — had been played out within this cult environment. The cult had some very rigid boundaries and some very porous boundaries, but very few healthy ones. None of them were useful for living life. My undiagnosed bipolar went unchecked.

28:45 How old were you when you got diagnosed?

28:48 Thirty-six. It’s a long time. And 2017 was the start of my recovery. In 2020 I finally admitted that I was in a cult — that I was in Falun Gong and that it was a cult.

29:02 How was that process for you?

29:10 It was horrific. Huge shame, embarrassment and anger — anger at the lost time, the wasted time, the wasted opportunities. I was behind in my career compared to my peers. It was really devastating. I felt like I had to build myself up from the beginning again. And there were no resources to help. I didn’t even know it was really a cult-specific thing. All I had was this trauma. I went to the psychologist and said, “What is me and what is the cult? If you take all the cult away, what’s left?”

29:54 I think that’s really common for people who are born into cults — because you didn’t know who you were before.

30:06 Exactly. When I realised I’d been in cults all my life and that almost everything I knew to be true was no longer true, it was like that nauseous cold-sweat feeling multiplied by a million. It was really hard to take. I thought, my God, the past 35 years have just been a fantasy. What am I going to do? How do I carry on?

30:35 What struck me about your story is that each cult seems tied to the question, “How do I improve who I am?”

30:56 Yes, that’s right. A lot of people ask me why I went into the cult. At first I said, “Because my dad went in and he said it was great.” But then someone asked me what was in it for me personally. I had to think about that. When I went back to that point in my mind, I realised I was undiagnosed bipolar type 2 and I hated myself. I couldn’t get on with anyone. I’d make friends, but I’d lose them even faster. I was intense and effusive and funny and outrageous, but I couldn’t turn that off. Eventually people would say, “Sorry, Jay, you’re too much.”

32:00 How long did it take you to recognise the cult experience for what it was?

32:07 Eight years. I left in 2012 and realised in 2020. For some people it can take up to 20 years. When you first get out of a cult, you really want nothing to do with it. You want to leave it behind and build a new life and live like an ordinary person.

32:47 But I don’t think that does people any favours because you’re still pushing it under the carpet.

32:55 Yes, you are. But there’s no real process in New Zealand today to help someone transition. There’s no mental health service, no proper system within the health system to help you. So you either push it down or you white-knuckle it. And that’s very hard. I think recovery is a lot about giving yourself time to process things.

33:31 I think that’s one of the reasons we encourage people not to join support groups right away — they haven’t processed it yet.

33:44 Exactly. People need time to think about the ins and outs of where they’ve been. That just takes time.

33:51 What helped jump-start that process for you?

34:00 The single most important thing was choosing my friends carefully. The first thing I did was get rid of toxic relationships and decide I wouldn’t participate in relationships that were harmful to me. That meant cutting people off, and it was easier than I thought. When you cut toxic people out of your life, your life gets better.

34:26 The second thing is having a social group. Being social is so important. If you don’t have family, it’s difficult. My family are overseas and we’re largely estranged. I had to look for friends I could rely on, trust with my feelings, and who wouldn’t be judgmental. Those are two things you can do right away, and they helped me on my way.

35:04 So one of the biggest supports has been good friendship and a good community around you. How do you hold your story now?

35:13 I’m still processing it. I feel like I’m about 80 to 90 percent there. By that I mean there’s still part of my story where I haven’t uncovered the full truth of what happened. I’m in the process of writing a book about it, and I’m also part of a documentary about Falun Gong that’s coming out on Disney+ later this year. Being part of that documentary has allowed me to talk with producers, directors and other ex-Falun Gong practitioners. There’s a group of us and we discuss a lot of stuff together. That helps them process and it helps me process.

36:14 I feel like I’m nearly at the point where I have a version of the truth that feels authentic. I’m sure in the future I’ll understand things differently or more deeply, but this feels like the first time I’ve had a complete, authentic picture.

36:29 Could you rapid-fire give me five things that help you cope on a day-to-day basis?

36:38 Breathing helps. Grounding helps. Scanning. I don’t know if that counts as one or three. I suffer from meditation fear because the meditation in Falun Gong was so brutal, so meditation isn’t something I really like. But I do mindfulness, which is completely different — non-spiritual, just awareness and being present. So: grounding, breathing, being present, mindfulness. Those are so useful for trauma and mental health. The fifth one is my dog, Haggis.

37:24 He’s an amazing, gentle soul and having him as a companion has been really helpful.

37:34 Dogs are great because they make you get outside and walk them.

37:45 Exactly. I walk every day, and having Haggis makes me do that. It’s extremely beneficial — being in nature and walking.

37:53 I also know that you’re a bit of an artist. How has that played a role in your journey of leaving cults?

38:03 Not as much as you’d think. I’m not ready to tackle the cult thing as an art project yet. Like I said, I’m still 80 to 90 percent through processing it. Once that’s done — once I’ve got the book out of the way — I might start looking at it. I only admitted it in 2020. The trauma made me very sick. I developed a chronic illness which I’m still recovering from today. The art I was making at that time was stuff I had already processed prior to 2020. It takes a long time. It might come out in the work eventually, or I might choose not to make art about it at all.

39:06 What do you wish people would understand about life after a cult?

39:12 I think it requires compassion and non-judgment. For someone who’s come out of a cult, the way they behave is not who they are. There are so many things going on in their head, and their behaviour may seem strange or unusual, but it’s coming from a place you’ve never been and won’t understand unless you’ve been through it yourself.

39:51 So holding them in a really non-judgmental space.

39:54 Exactly. People who have come out of cults are incredibly fragile — more fragile than you could believe. They can get triggered by the smallest things. I wish people understood just how fragile and damaged people can be after leaving cults, and that some of that damage is permanent. I don’t know a single cult survivor who says, “I’m completely over it. I’m cured. I never think about it.” Being part of a cult, and being a cult survivor, stays with you for the rest of your life.

40:39 Can you leave us with a few words about where you’re at right now in your journey?

40:46 I like to keep busy. Staying still isn’t good for me because it means intrusive thoughts. Right now I’m volunteering as much as I can. I’m doing this thing called the Unspun podcast. I’m volunteering for Decult. There’s a huge ambition among a lot of us that we want to see a respite centre — a facility where people can come, stay, get wellness treatments, and be in a protective environment. Maybe like a transition centre. That’s the big hairy audacious goal. I keep myself busy by volunteering, helping others, and putting all my skills toward that.

41:56 I’d just like to say it was really amazing to hear your story. I always really admire people who can come forward and share their story because it takes a lot of courage. I feel really privileged to have sat next to you today and had you share that with me.

42:11 Well, thanks Alisa. Thanks for interviewing me today. I really appreciate the opportunity. It’s really great to work with you.

42:19 Thank you — and same.

42:24 I’m going to enjoy returning the favour.

42:27 Yeah. So next week, folks, it’s going to be my story. Thanks for listening in.