Episode 006 — Jonas Skogstroll

0:00 Welcome to this series of interviews exploring lived experience within the Jehovah’s Witness faith. Throughout these conversations, we’ll be hearing personal stories of belief, belonging, questioning, and life beyond the organization.

0:14 For ease of listening, we’ll be abbreviating Jehovah’s Witness to JDub sometimes during this series.

0:20 And we have a special guest today. His name is Jonas. We saw your show last night and you have been protesting in Auckland. Do you want to give us a rundown on how that’s been for you?

0:33 It’s been wonderful. I like everyone been nice to me here. Right.

0:38 And um I’ve been doing those protests for since 2018. And it’s super fun to protest outside Jehovah Witness Convention because I care about the Jehovah Witnesses and they are very predictable. So I know what they’re going to do. But they can be aggressive in the beginning, but I always win them over until Sunday because we’re peaceful protesting. And the majority of Jehovah witnesses are normally nice people.

1:03 So eventually we leave as friends, so to speak.

1:07 Yeah. Because I’m a human right activist and your witnesses are humans. Yes. So we’re not protesting against humans.

1:14 We’re protesting. It’s like Korea. You don’t — if you protest Korea, you don’t protest the Koreans.

1:21 And it’s the same. We don’t protest against the Jehovah Witnesses. We protest against the wicked deeds of the governing body, right?

1:28 Which is something completely different.

1:30 Yeah. Yeah. And that makes a lot of sense. And how have you found doing the comedy shows here?

1:36 That was super fun to do the comedy shows here. We’ve done comedy shows from Auckland, Hamilton, Wellington. I’ve been to Richmond and now Christchurch.

1:46 It was really good. And we hope to come back in October for Decult and also do a tour in Australia. But I’m doing this doomsday comedy everywhere I will be asked to come because it’s a work with love.

2:03 It can help people to heal and help people just to have a laugh and I see tears after every show and that’s unique. You can’t do that.

2:07 It’s kind of a dream come true as a comedian to have such an invested audience.

2:11 Absolutely. Yeah. Last night was a really good show. It was sold out. It was 150 people there and we had lots of local supporting acts. How did you find the local crowd here in Christchurch?

2:26 Absolutely wonderful. It’s kind of the best show of my life, but things are just going better and better and better for me after leaving. It’s so fun and all my dreams come true.

2:34 But all the shows have been fun, but obviously the last one also — I’m a businessman and a father of a little baby that needs food.

2:42 So selling out tickets is obviously a priority. And here we sold all the tickets. And the person who had the venue didn’t really want to have a show on Waitangi Day, which is your national day.

2:54 And she said she thought she would only sell like 10 or 20 or 30 tickets and that’s not enough.

3:00 But we sold out and that means we can use her as a reference, right?

3:05 When we want to put up other shows because, you know, it’s also a business end of everything.

3:11 But we start — yeah. I’m having the time of my life. This is a rock and roll dream come true. I’m a Norwegian goat farmer and I’m touring New Zealand and it’s doing well and I’m invited to come back and we hope to do Australia that time too.

3:26 This is so much fun. Yeah, it’s great to be an apostate.

3:30 Yes, apostates rule. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself now? Obviously you’re a comedian. What’s life like for you in Norway?

3:38 Well, I left the religion and I became a farmer. When I stopped believing, I realized I can’t leave because then I lose everything and I kind of was okay with that in the beginning because that’s the way it is.

3:54 I realized I was trapped but it wasn’t that bad. I know all the rules and I know how to talk to witnesses and they’re kind of predictable. You can play them like a violin.

4:01 So I thought I could just move to a congregation that wasn’t fanatic. It was a congregation where they could say things like, “It’s such nice weather so we will only do Watchtower study today,” and then the whole congregation went out fishing instead of public talk.

4:16 So it wasn’t fanatic and I thought this is where I can just live on this planet and I wanted something to do that wasn’t Watchtower so I bought myself a farm because I thought then I can do something nice for the environment and stuff like that.

4:32 But then I realized having goats for me was very much therapy in both a good way but a bad way because when the Witnesses started increasingly shunning me so no one spoke to me, the goats were my only friends.

4:47 And I realized years after I would say things like “I don’t want human friends because human friends would always try to kill you.” I would say that out loud because it was that real to me.

4:55 And then I thought my goats are my friends because I can control them. They can’t leave me. So there was an unhealthy aspect there that I’m aware of now but I had to go through it.

5:03 So all my friends for years were goats. Only goats are my friends and I control them and if they don’t like me, I might even kill them and eat them. So basically I turned into a little god.

5:12 Little narcissistic god with my own flock and you have to love me and obey my rules.

5:18 So now I’m much more happy and yay for therapy. I didn’t really go to therapy, but I did a lot of soul-searching.

5:27 I work in Trondheim going to clean windows, but it’s so far away that I need to stay in Trondheim. I can’t go back.

5:35 So everything I make as a window cleaner, I lose as a farmer.

5:39 Since I no longer have any Jehovah’s Witness friends in Trondheim, I had to sleep in the forest or in the park.

5:46 But that means I sit at least two or three months a year alone in the forest just meditating.

5:53 So that was a lot of good therapy.

5:55 But in order to speed things up, find a real therapist and just start your real life better if anyone’s listening.

6:04 Yeah, for sure. Just going back to you leaving the organization, leaving the JDubs — what was the catalyst moment that led you to leaving?

6:14 In the beginning, the catalyst moments were how bad they treated my wife when she got anxiety because they just said, you know, “You have to do more and you will be happy. You have to knock on more doors. You have to look for demons in your house.”

6:31 And then you don’t get better from anxiety thinking about demons. And they would say that think about all the people that will die in Armageddon if you don’t go out knocking on doors. And it’s your fault.

6:41 So they were guilting her to do more.

6:43 And obviously when none of that worked, they would turn against me like it’s your husband not doing his spiritual headship and not taking the lead spiritually.

6:51 So if you read a list in the Watchtower literature what you should do if you’re depressed, it’s a long list of things that’s beneficial to Watchtower.

7:00 Right. And if you have marital problems, what should you do? And then there’s a long list of things that is beneficial to Watchtower.

7:08 Everything is what is beneficial. What should you do with your life? And then there’s a list of what is beneficial to Watchtower.

7:14 So they would just — it just went wrong. And let’s call them misguided, but they would just drag her out.

7:21 And in the end it was just bizarre. She would come home from field service and they would look angry at me like “you, the worldly person.”

7:29 Now, I wasn’t disfellowshipped, but at one point I couldn’t go to meetings anymore.

7:38 They would bring her home and try to guilt me for not going door to door. Then they would ask her, “Can you feel the spirit? Do you feel encouraged?”

7:45 And as soon as they left, she would just collapse and cry.

7:54 And I said, “There’s a place in the Bible — I still know my Bible — that says Jehovah loves a cheerful giver.” So I showed her that scripture.

8:01 You’re sick. You have every right to stay home. If God wanted to be preached, the Bible literally said he can make the stones preach.

8:10 You deserve to rest.

8:19 But she would say, “I have to go in field service otherwise I will die in Armageddon.”

8:22 And they did not stop doing this. They just kept pressuring her.

8:31 I remember I went to the elders and showed them scriptures and said, “I know you’re trying to do the right thing, but can you show her this scripture instead of all the blood guilt and shaming?”

8:41 And the elders just looked at me with pure hatred because I was basically telling them their recipe for fixing things was wrong.

8:49 “Give more, give more, give more, give more.”

8:58 Jehovah’s Witnesses still say this in the Watchtower — they are not unreasonable because they don’t want more than you have.

9:00 But that’s just a way of saying we want everything you have.

9:04 My wife would cry and say, “They are not unreasonable. They don’t want more than I have.”

9:11 At one point she was so bad that four grown-ups who knew the situation contacted me.

9:19 One said, “What the elders are saying about you is not true. You’re not the one causing her disease. She has MS and what they are doing is wrong.”

9:27 “They are forcing her to do more and more even though she needs to rest. I think she will die within three months.”

9:35 And that was her best friend saying that.

9:43 This is absolutely absurd. Short digression — you leave a situation when the pain of staying is worse than the pain of leaving.

9:51 Jehovah’s Witnesses have orchestrated an immense pain of leaving. So people stay as long as possible.

9:59 The pain of staying becomes immense before you finally leave. That’s why Jehovah’s Witnesses have such terrible stories.

10:06 If it was possible to leave earlier like in a normal religion, they would leave earlier and Jehovah’s Witnesses would not have that bad reputation.

10:15 This was the extreme end of my Jehovah’s Witness journey.

10:19 Then my best friend, who worked as a taxi driver transporting people to hospitals, told me he had many customers with MS and he thought my wife would also die within three months because her disease was accelerating.

10:36 He also said what the elders were doing was wrong.

10:44 And then he said, “Don’t fight with the elders. The problem will solve itself.”

10:50 Then I spoke to my parents. My father had served as an elder and on disfellowshipping committees, so they had no reason to be naïve.

11:07 They knew the elder spreading rumors about me was violating Jehovah’s Witness rules.

11:14 But my parents still said, “You have to be loyal to the organization.”

11:28 I was crying and saying, “They are killing her. They are literally killing her.”

11:36 And my parents said, “Yes maybe, but you have to be loyal to the organization.”

11:43 At that point I stopped loving my parents because they knew this and still defended the organization.

11:51 They could not compartmentalize disagreeing with the organization.

11:59 And even after I got disfellowshipped, their solution to everything was that I should go back to the organization — and I’m never going to do that.

12:04 But that’s when I had enough — when they treated her like that.

12:11 And I told her she had to choose if she wanted to be married to me or not. And then she left and then she was disfellowshipped by them again, right?

12:20 No, not again. But she was disfellowshipped.

12:22 It’s a really sad story. We were married for 19 years.

12:29 And after she left me, I found what she googled because we were using the same computer. And she googled, “Am I allowed to think my own thoughts?”

12:36 Can you imagine how you feel when you Google something like that? “Am I allowed to think my own thoughts?” And then she googled variations of that because she was intelligent.

12:46 She googled things like, “Am I allowed to think words inside my own head?” “Is it legal to hear sentences inside my own brain?” She googled that like 20 times.

12:55 And the last thing she googled was how to file for divorce.

13:02 That’s so powerful. It really shows the nuances of the brainwashing.

13:09 I’m glad you think that’s funny because I can’t laugh at that one. No, but seriously, I’m a comedian, so I’m literally glad if other people can see the funny.

13:19 This one I’m immune to the funny. But I’m okay with you laughing. Laughter is good.

13:26 But 19 years of marriage — she was the first love of my life. I was taking care of her and she was taking care of me and we were happy.

13:36 If it wasn’t for them meddling. At one point I said something about blood transfusions because their way of handling blood transfusions makes no sense.

13:45 They sit in meetings and talk about all the exemptions. You can’t take blood, but then there are exemptions for this and exemptions for that.

13:52 They say you can’t take blood, but you can take fractions. They say a fraction is not blood.

14:02 But then this fraction is blood and this fraction is not blood. When it comes to fractions, you can take 10 kilos of a fraction.

14:09 What’s a fraction?

14:14 When you split up the blood into different particles and fractions.

14:17 So you have four main fractions according to when you split it with a centrifuge.

14:25 And they say these are the main fractions. You can’t take them, but everything smaller than that you can take.

14:36 Which doesn’t make any sense because that would mean God is a centrifuge enthusiast.

14:45 If the centrifuge ran a little faster, you would get five fractions if the red blood cells cracked.

14:53 The red blood cell is basically a thin bag with hemoglobin. The hemoglobin is a fraction — you can take that.

14:59 But you cannot take it with the thin bag around it because then it’s one of the four main fractions. It doesn’t make any sense.

15:07 You can basically take 10 kilos of a fraction and it doesn’t count as blood according to Jehovah’s Witnesses, but you cannot take one red blood cell.

15:15 So I pointed out at a meeting that if science says you only need one blood cell to start something, then you could argue one blood cell is not blood.

15:34 And the whole congregation just looked at me. You could hear a pin drop. Everyone looked at me like I was an apostate.

15:42 I lived undercover as a Jehovah’s Witness against my will for 14 years, doing all the moves and pretending to believe.

15:50 But after I said that, everything changed. Later they bullied me more and more, so I stopped going to meetings.

15:58 Things went okay, but when I saw the way they treated my wife, I stayed there as long as I could for her.

16:06 And when she left me, I was out immediately. My parents cut me off straight away.

16:11 And that’s their choice. They’re grown-ups. I support their right to live how they want.

16:17 They do not support my right to live how I want. We just have to be better than them.

16:22 We have to forgive them, move on, and be better than them.

16:25 You’ve left the group and you’re being shunned. What was the most challenging everyday task in adjusting to life outside with “worldly people”?

16:38 I still say worldly people because everyone else is from the “world of Satan.”

16:46 There’s a lot you don’t know about yourself. When I grew up, my parents told me school was basically a torture chamber for Jehovah’s Witness kids.

16:53 We weren’t even allowed to say “classmate.” My father once took me aside and said, “How can you call these people mates?”

17:01 He asked, “What if the police came to the school and gave one of the kids a gun and told them to kill all Jehovah’s Witnesses? What do you think they would do?”

17:17 My parents also told me if I didn’t try to convert everyone at school, then their deaths at Armageddon would be my fault.

17:34 My mother would tell me before school, “You might get executed today, but that doesn’t matter because you are not important. Only the organization is important.”

17:45 Everyone says Jehovah’s Witness kids are always smiling. I would get beaten if I wasn’t smiling.

17:58 You learn to pretend to be normal. You smile because you’re trained to recruit people while hiding all the turmoil underneath.

18:13 Someone once compared it to living under occupation during war — smiling on the surface while internally seeing everyone as the enemy.

18:34 Even just a few years ago, whenever I started becoming friends with a worldly person, I would sabotage it because I felt fear in my body.

18:46 I only really started making friends a few years ago.

18:50 I’m turning 50 this year, and it was only recently that I learned how to make friends and override that fear reaction.

18:59 Yeah. I think what’s really common among cult leavers is you come out without a true sense of yourself and often very protective because you’re busy figuring out the world and your identity.

19:16 Well, I always had a strong feeling of self. That’s why the Witnesses didn’t like me.

19:27 I worked very hard as a Witness. I was in all the positions you could be in, but I never became an elder.

19:33 That’s basically because I was always a freethinker.

19:41 They don’t like it when someone follows rules because they genuinely agree with them instead of obeying blindly.

19:51 So I never became an elder or anything, but I always had a strong sense of self.

19:58 But when I woke up and realized how badly they were manipulating people, my life became absolute hell. I was suicidal.

20:05 I reached a point where I knew I couldn’t continue being a Jehovah’s Witness, but in my mind it was impossible not to be one.

20:14 It felt like trying to become an insect. My brain literally couldn’t comprehend not being a Jehovah’s Witness.

20:26 So I sat with paper and pen trying to work out whether it would be better if I killed myself.

20:34 I planned my suicide in detail.

20:38 I even realized the insurance money would go to repairing the Kingdom Hall after I shot myself there.

20:48 And then I realized they would guilt my wife into donating the insurance money back to the organization.

21:05 They would fix the damage using donated labor and materials and then profit from my death.

21:20 And they would use the publicity to recruit more vulnerable people.

21:35 The people most likely to talk to Jehovah’s Witnesses are often isolated, vulnerable, mentally unwell, former addicts, or suicidal.

21:43 I realized they would make a profit from my suicide, and I refused to let that happen.

21:51 So that’s one reason I didn’t kill myself.

21:58 I had to sit with paper and pen and work out whether it would be better for my wife if I died or if I left the religion.

22:13 I started making lists. Would it be worse if I killed myself or if I said “Merry Christmas” to someone?

22:20 Would it be worse if I broke a rule, like stealing a chewing gum?

22:27 I realized stealing a chewing gum would still be better than killing myself. I never stole one — that wasn’t the point.

22:34 The point was systematically breaking all the rules would still be better than suicide.

22:51 Eventually she left me, so I didn’t have to go through all of that mentally anymore.

22:59 The hardest thing wasn’t finding myself. It was understanding that it was possible not to be a Jehovah’s Witness.

23:09 But going from non-believer to apostate was easy because that just meant telling the truth.

23:22 What I hated as a Jehovah’s Witness was always having to say things in a sneaky way and present the best version of everything.

23:34 As an apostate, I can just say the ugly truths — the ugly things I’ve done and the ugly things Watchtower does.

23:41 You can finally say what you actually want to say.

23:49 But in Jehovah’s Witness land, speaking openly against the leaders is the worst thing you can do.

23:59 Yeah. It sounds like such a pressured environment.

24:06 So what was the catalyst for you to start doing comedy?

24:15 At one point in religion — or any abusive relationship — they tell you not to be angry.

24:25 But eventually you do get angry. Every time I got angry, I would channel it into revenge.

24:33 I started making YouTube videos because I thought, “You stole my family, so I will deprogram one of your members.”

24:40 So I went from anger into revenge. And then when you stay in revenge for a while, I would turn…

24:49 …into frustration. All the things that happen — they’re wrong — and I would like to change them.

24:54 So then you go from anger, revenge, to frustration. And you work with all the things you don’t want to happen and try to solve all the problems and pigeonhole all the bad things different cults do.

25:03 But then you start feeling better because you’re doing something for other people. And when you feel better, you start loving yourself.

25:10 And then at one point I started feeling like, “Jonas, you deserve to work with something you love.”

25:16 Because now I’m working in frustration with something I hate. I don’t want religious people to abuse others — I want them to respect human rights.

25:24 So I stopped working against things and started working toward what I wanted.

25:29 I went from anger, to revenge, to frustration, to happiness — working toward what I actually want.

25:38 And when you feel better about yourself, you can forgive others. I forgave the Witnesses. I’m not angry at individuals anymore.

25:47 There are individuals I would prefer not to meet again, but as a group I love them.

25:56 The motivation changed. I no longer make videos out of anger or revenge. Now I just want to help other people feel good too.

26:05 So if there’s anyone watching this, don’t be afraid of anger because anger makes you move away from the situation.

26:16 That’s why abusers always say, “Don’t be angry.” The reason you’re angry is because of the abuse.

26:24 You have every right to be angry. Just don’t do anything stupid.

26:30 Don’t do cocaine or heroin, rob a bank, or punch someone in the face.

26:37 But if you want to tell them to f*** off, you can do that. It’s healthy. It doesn’t hurt anyone.

26:44 Then move from anger to frustration, from frustration to action, and from action to positive action.

26:48 Yeah, I think you’re right about anger — it creates motion and action.

26:56 Yeah. Just don’t do anything stupid in the anger phase. Go chop wood. Use physical energy. Throw stones at a wall.

27:04 I don’t know if you’re allowed to curse on your podcast.

27:07 Yeah, a little bit.

27:10 I’m not good at cursing. You know how I curse when I get really angry?

27:16 This is pathetic because as a Jehovah’s Witness I never cursed. And I’m not even a believer anymore.

27:19 But you know how normal people say “go to hell” without actually believing in hell?

27:23 So when I’ve been really angry, I’ve pointed at people and said, “You’re going to die in Armageddon.” That’s how I curse.

27:32 I’ve only done it a few times when I’m really angry.

27:39 Anyway — chop wood, walk, throw stones at a wall. The anger will move you. The anger is your friend.

27:53 Before anger you are passive. So you go from passive, to anger, to revenge, to negative action — fighting against something — and then eventually to positive action.

28:01 Now when I’m protesting outside Jehovah’s Witness conventions, I’m actually protesting pro–Jehovah’s Witnesses because I’m a human rights activist and they are humans.

28:17 And it’s such a wonderful place to be — out protesting for Jehovah’s Witnesses.

28:21 I like that perspective of approaching it from a human rights angle. Like, let’s look after the children and protect people’s rights.

28:30 So it’s not condemning all the people — it’s condemning the harmful aspects of the system. Is that right?

28:42 That is absolutely right. When I first protested in 2018, it was a very anger-driven protest.

28:52 And like I said, anger is okay. But when you take your anger into a public place in front of children, it may not be the best thing.

29:00 I remember hearing children ask their parents, “Why do they hate us?” And I realized I didn’t want to traumatize kids.

29:13 Everyone told me you cannot organize apostates because Jehovah’s Witnesses are highly organized.

29:21 People don’t want to be told what the theme of the protest should be, so I kept thinking: what’s the simplest thing we can all agree on?

29:39 I came up with the phrase: “All religions must respect human rights.”

29:48 When I talk to politicians using that phrase, they immediately understand it.

29:56 If you have an organization that doesn’t respect human rights, you can still legally operate in New Zealand. That’s not illegal in itself.

30:04 But you shouldn’t receive charitable status or tax funding.

30:12 Exactly.

30:15 There has to be a difference between McDonald’s and “The Church of the Holy Cow.”

30:20 In theory someone could create a church around eating hamburgers and call it a religion to avoid taxes.

30:28 So you need legal definitions for what counts as a religion and what counts as a charity.

30:36 One of those definitions should be that all religions must respect human rights.

30:44 And now that’s legislated in Norway and Jehovah’s Witnesses are no longer recognized as a religion.

30:50 Because of that pressure, they changed two of their doctrines.

30:53 They are no longer openly anti-education, which is important because education is a human right.

31:02 Children don’t just have the right to education — they have the right to be encouraged to seek education and do their own research.

31:09 Most isolated religious groups would never encourage a highly intelligent child to leave and go to university.

31:15 And in theory, that itself can become a human rights issue.

31:24 Human rights violations are not always crimes, but they’re still violations.

31:37 So when governments financially support religions based on membership numbers, there becomes a direct relationship between the state and those human rights violations.

31:53 If people are trapped in a religion because of shunning and fear of losing family, then they’re being kept there through coercion.

32:01 In the case of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would actually say that becomes extortion.

32:10 A religion has every right to say, “If you leave, you can’t come back to church.”

32:19 But saying, “If you leave, you can never speak to your family or children again” — that’s something very different.

32:28 That’s extortion.

32:36 So when the government gives money to Jehovah’s Witnesses, there becomes a direct relationship between the government and the human rights violations.

32:37 And once you establish that link, I threatened to sue the Norwegian government.

32:41 Right. And I got a letter back written and signed by two officials, and they said, “Well, you raise some interesting questions.”

32:49 I got them to see it from a different perspective because they didn’t understand that they were co-responsible alongside Jehovah’s Witnesses.

32:56 They were thinking, “Well, Jehovah’s Witnesses are violating human rights and we can’t stop them.”

33:03 But when they realized they were participating in it by funding it, they had to respond.

33:10 In New Zealand, I’m pretty sure you’re not allowed to give money to al-Qaeda.

33:18 You can’t just say, “Oh, this is a donation to a nice Muslim charity.” No — you’d be responsible for supporting terror.

33:31 So how can the New Zealand government give money to Jehovah’s Witnesses? It’s the same principle.

33:38 That’s why I say: “All religions must respect human rights.”

33:46 What I want to happen in New Zealand is for legislation to require all religious organizations claiming charitable status to prove annually that they do not violate human rights.

33:55 There should also be a way of checking it. Anyone can write on paper, “We respect human rights.”

34:02 But if there are doubts, the benefit of the doubt should go to the children.

34:10 Yeah, I really love that. If we aren’t 100% sure whether a group like Gloriavale is harming children, then the doubt should still go in favor of protecting the child.

34:27 Groups like Gloriavale and Jehovah’s Witnesses should have to prove beyond reasonable doubt that children’s rights are not being violated.

34:37 Sometimes governments suddenly receive thousands of identical letters from Jehovah’s Witness children defending the organization.

34:44 But no one asked those children for affidavits. When coordinated responses suddenly appear like that, it can signal something deeper going on.

35:00 I really like that focus on children because they’re the future members of these groups and they’re incredibly vulnerable.

35:08 I think the public often responds more strongly to concern for children than adults leaving and being harmed later in life.

35:16 People often assume adults have more choice, but children born into these systems are in a completely different position.

35:31 Yesterday one of the comedians was ex–Salvation Army.

35:37 They’re not usually described as a cult, and I don’t think they’re among the worst groups, but people can still be hurt inside those systems.

35:53 Outwardly they have a very positive image, but what happens internally may sometimes be different.

36:04 The comedian talked about growing up terrified between sexual thoughts and fear of hell.

36:12 She joked that her teenage years were basically “boobs and hell, boobs and hell.”

36:21 But underneath the joke, that was years spent in agony.

36:26 Years she could have spent making art, studying, learning skills, building friendships, or becoming more confident in herself.

36:35 Instead she spent those years in fear and self-hatred.

36:38 And for some reason society treats that as normal if religious parents are involved.

36:45 Why should we think it’s normal for teenagers to spend years hating themselves?

36:57 Jehovah’s Witness girls often self-harm and cut themselves, and people sometimes dismiss those stories like they’re just part of growing up religious.

37:03 But none of that suffering is necessary.

37:11 Teenage years are terrifying inside high-control religions because you’re learning who you are while being told you’ll be punished for natural thoughts and feelings.

37:28 You’re taught that if you make mistakes, you’re going to hell or dying at Armageddon.

37:36 I spent years hating myself.

37:44 If I threatened to punch another adult in the face in Norway, I could theoretically go to jail for two years.

37:53 But parents can tell children they’re sinful, evil, or deserving of death because of something that happened thousands of years ago.

38:01 You can tell a child that nothing they do is good enough and fill them with shame and fear.

38:14 Some children brush it off as fantasy, but others take it literally and carry that terror for years.

38:26 Especially children who are more sensitive or neurodivergent — they absorb it deeply.

38:32 You can tell a three-year-old they’ll burn in hell forever and society accepts it.

38:40 But threatening another adult in a bar is considered criminal.

38:47 Something is wrong there.

38:51 That’s why I’m doing this work. I think we can change it.

38:59 Religious groups care deeply about status and legitimacy.

39:08 Some leaders will frame criticism as persecution because persecution narratives strengthen loyalty and increase donations.

39:16 But mainstream religions generally still want to remain legally recognized and respected.

39:22 So if they were doing harmful things internally, they would face pressure to reform rather than lose charitable status.

39:33 Jehovah’s Witnesses would likely try to do both — claim persecution to members while presenting a polished image to governments.

39:41 That’s my guess. It’s very strategic.

39:51 We’ve reached kind of the end of our conversation, so a few final questions.

40:00 If you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left Jehovah’s Witnesses, what would you say?

40:08 “Don’t kill yourself. It gets better.”

40:13 Good words. That’s good advice.

40:21 If you had to name one thing that supported you most during that period, what would it be?

40:25 My goats.

40:33 Yeah. The connection with animals was important because they were my friends.

40:42 And now I understand that I felt safe with them because their love felt unconditional — but also because I could control that relationship.

40:50 When you leave Jehovah’s Witnesses, abandonment issues affect you deeply.

40:49 You can become super needy. I’m still super needy. My wife sees it. I’m like, “Please find me. Please hug me. Please don’t leave me.”

40:56 But that’s also by choice because you need some kind of emotional outlet.

41:04 The other option is becoming controlling, which is what I was with my goats. “You are my property. I control you.” I wasn’t aware of that at the time.

41:12 Another thing you can do is self-sabotage. You sabotage relationships because if you don’t have friends, nobody can leave you.

41:18 Those are the three patterns people often go through after leaving — neediness, control, or self-sabotage.

41:27 I chose needy because my wife is kind and patient, even if it isn’t always attractive to have a needy grown man asking for hugs.

41:36 But I didn’t want to become controlling, and self-sabotage is destructive too.

41:44 So yes, I can still be needy, but much less than before, and I feel so much better now.

41:50 After going through all that pain, you become very aware of other people’s suffering and you want to help them.

42:00 And honestly, I think the best therapy is humor because it’s inexpensive and it works.

42:15 If someone comes to a one-hour stand-up comedy show about religion, it won’t replace a year of therapy. That’s not the point.

42:23 But many people never properly process what happened to them. They just put a lid on it.

42:29 Quite often I get contacted by the spouse of an ex-Jehovah’s Witness.

42:36 Usually it’s a woman because they tend to be more emotionally aware and can see the suffering their partner won’t talk about.

42:44 She’ll say, “Can you please talk to the nice Norwegian?” while the husband is standing there looking at his shoes saying, “I don’t want to talk about it.”

42:50 But she can see the pain, even if he can’t express it.

43:02 So dragging him to a comedy show can actually help.

43:11 I’ve seen grown men cry during my shows without fully understanding why.

43:20 Because inside the comedy are all the things people need to move forward — acceptance, anger, grief, healing.

43:27 Joke writing is a real skill. It might sound casual on stage, but we spend a huge amount of time constructing those jokes carefully.

43:35 One of the jokes I do is about how the God of the Bible is actually a pathetic friend.

43:45 His only friends are people who fear him. That’s not friendship.

43:47 And if you reject his friendship, he kills you — and somehow it’s still your fault.

43:55 If you grow up believing this giant cosmic authority figure is constantly judging you, that fear stays in your body even after you leave.

44:08 But if during the show I can make people see that version of God as pathetic instead of terrifying, then the fear begins to loosen.

44:16 You’re replacing fear with perspective, and that helps people heal.

44:24 I also love what you said earlier — people who would never attend a support group will still go to a comedy show.

44:38 Comedy becomes a gateway into recovery and self-understanding.

44:47 One of the best things about the comedy setting is that people realize they aren’t alone.

44:56 Last night when we asked how many people had been Jehovah’s Witnesses, almost half the crowd responded.

45:09 A lot of people suddenly realized, “Oh wow, I’m not the only one.”

45:15 Maybe after that, support groups or counseling become possible for them.

45:24 A belief is just a thought you keep thinking over and over.

45:32 Even thirty years later, these experiences still shape parts of you and the patterns your thoughts follow.

45:40 So even if you feel completely done with it, coming once a year to something like a comedy show and being around others who understand can still be healthy.

45:48 Healing isn’t something you finish once and never revisit. You can always move a little further forward.

46:00 You can move from “this terrible thing happened to me” toward “this terrible thing happened to me — and now I can even laugh about parts of it.”

46:05 I really believe in the concept. I’m not making much money from it yet, but I believe that if you work with love and work hard enough, eventually the universe gives back.

46:14 Especially because I also have a baby to support.

46:23 And we wish you all the luck in the world with that.

46:31 Before we finish — please go to doomsdaycomedy.com and sign up for the newsletter.

46:40 The bigger the mailing list becomes, the easier it is to organize shows and prove to venues and comedy promoters that there’s genuine interest.

46:50 We always ask these three questions at the end. What would you like people to know about those leaving cults?

46:58 That’s a broad question.

47:02 I think the main thing is: listen to their stories, even if they repeat themselves.

47:09 Because often when people begin explaining their background, others immediately interrupt with assumptions.

47:16 “Oh, you didn’t celebrate Christmas?” “I’ve seen the Amish — they look peaceful.”

47:24 So people never really get to tell their actual story and they don’t feel heard.

47:33 That’s another reason the comedy shows work so well. Half the audience may be people who’ve never lived through it, but someone else is finally telling your story out loud.

47:40 You hear people laughing and understanding, and suddenly you feel seen.

47:48 So my advice is: listen to the strange stories, even if they repeat themselves, and let people go deeper instead of filling the conversation with your own assumptions.

48:05 People need to get it out of their system. I talked constantly after I left too.

48:11 On behalf of myself, Jaya, and Unspun, we feel incredibly privileged to have heard your story and seen your comedy.

48:26 And to our audience — if you ever get the chance to see Jonas live, it’s absolutely worth it.

48:37 Thank you very much for coming to New Zealand.

48:40 Thank you. And I hope to come back in October with Doomsday Comedy. Please support it. It’s a great show and it’s worth the cost.

48:47 Absolutely. Thank you. Bye for now.