Episode 004 – Scott Homan

0:00 Welcome to Unspun: Unraveling the Threads of Cult Recovery. This podcast exists because so many people carry untold stories about growing up in,

0:10 joining, leaving, or questioning cults.

0:13 We share honest conversations with people who have untangled themselves from restrictive belief systems, harmful communities, and environments that once shaped their identity. Our purpose is to create a living resource, a place where people can come to for understanding,

0:30 validation, and pathways for support. Whether you’re newly questioning,

0:36 recently out, supporting someone you love, or years into rebuilding your life, this space is for you. We aim to

0:44 reduce shame on a lived experience and remind you that you are not alone.

0:50 And today it’s my great honor to introduce Scott Harmon.

0:55 Scott is a firsttime filmmaker. He was raised in the northwoods of Wisconsin in the heart of the Great Lakes region

1:02 where the culture is fiercely DIY. His dad joined the Jehovah’s Witnesses when he was a child. Taught by eccentric

1:10 parents to defy cultural norms. Scott created his first two student documentaries at 17 in a high school

1:17 program. He worked at channel 7 news running camera and sound in Wasau and then went to photography school in

1:26 Minneapolis during the transition from film to digital. His late 20s saw Scott come to the conclusion he didn’t believe

1:34 in their god Jehovah and realized he was an atheist. For this he was completely cut off by his family that remained in

1:41 the religion. He later lived abroad for seven years in Ecuador and Vietnam where he primarily focused on developing the

1:49 skills to run a boutique documentary production studio. He and two friends in Hanoi created Banana Island Films, a

1:57 music video and documentary production company that he runs to this day. And through that, he released his excellent documentary Witness Underground.

2:06 Scott, it’s so awesome to have you here today. I also just wanted to say that Scott was integral in helping us start

2:15 up our local uncult group, which is a peer support group for cult survivors.

2:20 Um, and it’s where Joy and I first met Scott. So, yeah, it’s lovely to have you along. Yeah, thanks for having me on.

2:28 Appreciate all of that. It’s been really nice working with both of you. Yeah. Yeah,

2:33 we’ll also put all your links in the show notes at the end so if people see the movie um or catch up with what

2:40 you’re up to then they’re able to do that. I guess in terms of your story,

2:45 can you tell us a little bit about yourself now?

2:51 Now I’m 45 and living in a very different place with um we talked a lot

2:59 about film making in the bio. Thank you for the intro. But I also do engineering work.

3:03 So I have like outdoor sports. I do mountain biking,

3:07 bit of hiking and snowboarding back in the day. Less of that nowadays, more mountain biking and rock climbing.

3:13 That’s taken me to different places in the world and it’s been fun. Met a lot of friends through that.

3:20 Can you um I’m in Denver. You’re in Denver, right? Denver, Colorado. Denver, Colorado. The base capital of USA.

3:27 Yeah. and the best place to do climbing and mountain biking and all that stuff. Yeah, it’s pretty good for that. Yeah.

3:34 So, Scott, can you give us a brief background of your experience in the Jehovah’s Witness?

3:39 Okay. Grandparents joined it after their last failed prediction of the end of the world in the mid ‘7s. They joined in the

3:46 early 80s. My parents, my dad joined it when I was young like eight years old

3:53 and did an indoctrination and then like session over years like childhood indoctrination. Other key things would

4:00 be I was probably the most serious about it in a sense like trying to do all the things to be a part of it because you

4:07 know they dangled the carrot in front of us that you need to be a slave to attain

4:15 immortality and survive the end of the world where Jesus murders everyone who’s not a Jehovah’s Witness. Um, so I did some things for that even though I was

4:23 kind of skeptical most of the time and into punk rock and music making with non cult members and um later got out. There

4:32 was like a big break at 19 and then I kind of went back to it on my own terms with like limited things and then eventually left at 27.

4:41 Right. Right.

4:43 What was the catalyst moment that led you to leaving? Probably the biggest impactful thing was that there’s this

4:50 thing I learned from later on a a a verbiage that is something like allowing yourself to do the research or

4:58 allowing yourself to explore a doubt in your faith which I think is an interesting way of framing it. like I

5:06 was denying myself the ability to unwind cognitive dissonance…

5:13 holding two opposing ideas that are conflicting and not resolving that. It’s like kind of chaotic to like have biology class and

5:21 read National Geographic about particle physics and and then also have someone say that, you know, the Earth is 6,000

5:29 years old or that humans were just poofed into existence by a deity. the

5:35 war god 6,000 years ago. We are somehow the bad guys for the way it all worked

5:42 out and we suck. Um, so like those like I was having lots of conflicting information from two different groups essentially like a science-based secular

5:51 community which is the general society and then the Jehovah’s Witnesses trying to push their ideas into your skull as

5:59 deep and fast as they can with no evidence at all. So probably for me the most dangerous idea was that if I looked into certain aspects of science,

6:08 evolution being like a big one for that religion and important for me that it would unwind my fragile faith built on nothing.

6:17 Yeah.

6:17 And except for their publications and you’re not really allowed to read anything outside of it. Although my family sucked at the religion and were new so they didn’t have that rule. So we

6:25 had like the encyclopedia and the respected National Geographic and secular people.

6:31 So you know finally like I blocked some things. I’m like I’m not going to look too deep into that because I know I will trust the science because I’ve

6:38 had a whole life of like exposure to data and experts and I’ve never met a Jehovah’s Witness who had could knock

6:46 two brain cells together when it came to science. allowing myself to do the research just like that was that was the path out basically without being that it

6:55 wasn’t the intention. It was just like well I have to believe this or not or be out and so like I’m not going to believe anything I can’t. That was probably the biggest one for me.

7:04 It sounds like it wasn’t fast. It wasn’t instantaneous though.

7:06 Yeah. Sounds like you had access to education and resources that other people didn’t. Is that right? Maybe not

7:14 more access, just maybe more comfortability with access using it. And also I was there for the early internet. So like early search where like well what is it?

7:25 What can we find on the internet about this topic? It wasn’t just 1970 encyclopedia that your grandparents or parents happened to buy,

7:32 which I used a lot cuz back then that was the source of most of my knowledge for book reports and stuff like that. And yes,

7:38 in school and when the internet came out, I was like, well, there’s more information here. And then Wikipedia of course became like the global encyclopedia

7:46 and businesses won’t read it. They’re like, you can’t trust the internet. Like it’s the encyclopedia. It’s the whole collected human knowledge. when you when

7:53 you decided that science had won you over and you were in the process of leaving, did you have any outside

8:00 support during the exit process or was it a sol solitary move?

8:04 So, in a lot of ways, it’s it’s kind of a dual thing where I had a unique situation within the Jehovah’s Witnesses where you’re not supposed to have friends in that religious culture

8:12 outside of the religion. Most people have a quite an insular community and I grew up without that because my parents were new and were in a small town and I

8:20 had already had like lots of family on one my mom’s side of the family who were never a part of it. They were a lot of them were in different religious or

8:28 going to different churches but there wasn’t any dogmatic thing about that.

8:32 They just did whatever they did whatever they liked and there was no kind of control. Um so I had that influence and they were quite like evenhanded about

8:40 their religious beliefs. It was mostly like just one of the many things that they did and they had their own education sources. So I had that influence but also most of my friends were never Jehovah’s Witnesses,

8:50 right?

8:50 So it was like a unique situation in that case. But then when it came to the religious people in my life and the

8:58 context of those conversations and those topics in the presence of Jehovah’s Witnesses, I would be I was very

9:05 vigilant about who it was safe and who was unsafe to communicate about certain things to. And I asked questions of some of the local leadership that I was like,

9:14 I wonder about this and I don’t I can’t find any good information. What do you think? But mostly like a I’ll take your information as one source of education

9:24 without establishing that I’m fervently like have a different opinion or something.

9:29 So I had to be careful in that sense which is kind of like there’s always a watchful eye and if you say the wrong thing you’ll be punished in some way. Yeah,

9:38 more surveiled differently or more intensely.

9:41 How was the experience of leaving for you?

9:44 So, okay, religious deconstruction can be very long. It often is quite a long process for people and most people.

9:51 Okay, it’s quite there’s quite a many ways that this happens. For me, it was sort of a always happening simultaneously with my

9:59 religious life, the parts of my life that were religious where I was kind of always questioning certain things and had books on those things or would buy

10:08 DVDs on those topics or research in quiet on those topics.

10:12 I guess I’m interested in hearing about the kind of emotional experience of leaving for you. Was it hard to leave? I

10:22 mean, yeah. devastating or liberating I guess. Yeah. I think the period from 19 to 27,

10:29 the 19-year-old thing was I didn’t go to church for like half a year, right?

10:33 And then I had this big like hard heart with my dad where he basically said,

10:36 “You don’t have to you don’t have to believe what the religious leaders say,

10:40 believe what their literature says. You don’t even have to go to church. You just have to like focus on you and your relationship with God and or Jesus.” And

10:48 um which is not the Jehovah’s Witness line at all.

10:51 Right. And I was like, “Oh, that’s how you see this. Interesting.” Cuz I have sort of like taken my parents way of doing it and the religious way of doing it. And there’s lots of disparity between the two. And I was like, “Okay,

11:01 if I’m going to do it my dad’s way, that changes things. I will keep the punk rock band. I will keep traveling and I will go to college even though they’re

11:09 not supposed to.” So, I kind of had this like it actually was probably worse. I kind of wished looking back that I’d ripped a band-aid off and just like been

11:17 out at 19 and lived my 20s in the way that was felt felt comfortable or liberating. But I stuck with some very toxic unhealthy behavior.

11:26 So even his his big appeal to me then was like kind of manipulate very manipulative actually. It was very emotional and it felt like he wasn’t

11:34 listening. So that created a big rift between us that never went away actually which is unfortunate when it when I was

11:41 like hey this is where I’m at like let’s talk as an adult to an adult you know 19-year-old I felt that I was mature but

11:49 then later when I finally left the 27 yearear-old moment where that was also like a all right I’m done all the way

11:57 now I just don’t believe any of it like it’s 100% out and like there’s no more manipulation or

12:05 guilting me into things or coercive control that you can use to influence my life. And that was very challenging to

12:12 my family. And a lot of them went deeper into the religion because they’re like,

12:16 “Oh my god, we’re in the midst of the antichrist.

12:19 I’m not the antichrist. I just finished reading the book on how the real world works or whatever.” I just felt very confident

12:28 and I started I started actually a deeper cleansing and framework deconstruction while my family was like positioning

12:35 themselves to disconnect all the way from me when they were maybe previous to that tolerant of my more freethinking

12:44 way of handling the world while maintaining my relationship with the religion and then they were like oh he’s he’s unhinged now and we can’t control him nothing will

12:52 bring him back they would like delete me on Facebook as like digital friends like like we’re family. You’re going to delete me as a digital friend on an app somewhere.

13:03 That’s so what is that about? And then they wouldn’t talk to me for six months and then they would add me back on Facebook. I’m like are we family or not?

13:09 Like what’s going on? And they did that like three different times and then tried to bring me back into the family and then thought that they made me an

13:17 ultimatum that I somehow rejected even though they never did. And there’s lots of weird discussions. It just got really

13:24 weird seeing my family get super culty because I basically rejected every Jehovah’s Witness that did that kind of stuff while I was in it.

13:31 I was like, I’m going to only hang out with the people that I really like connect with in it like very very selective about who I would spend time with in that community.

13:38 And to see my family like going full like corporate like we must tow the line and obey and not speak to this person in

13:47 our family. And they would say all the lines that like mind programming had like fully worked on them and they were just like repeating things that they

13:55 were told would work if they used the magic phrases that they were told which this made me think like oh my god they’re so they’re lost into this thing

14:04 now. I didn’t know that but I hadn’t been and all that to say like that whole 10-year period I was in another state or another country that whole time.

14:12 They started doing this weird culty thing a decade after I was not even in their presence. I would see them once a year or something. Yeah.

14:20 So that’s been hard. That’s been the hardest thing is that the shunning which is ultimately like when I made the film Witness Underground is that I wanted to

14:27 make a deal about how insidious and like like inhumane shunning is. Yeah.

14:35 But also point out like okay on some level yes I am the victim. I’m the shunn. But at the same time, like they

14:43 are the victims and that they are the mindcontrolled group. Yeah.

14:47 Who are all acting in harmony with a cult who demands that they shun. Yeah.

14:52 As their slaves who work tirelessly to pro proilitize their faith. And they don’t see it that way. They can’t. They

15:01 think they’re just doing the right thing and that they’re somehow on the right side of history or whatever and that I am somehow a bad person for being honest.

15:10 Yeah. In many ways, you’re all the victims. Yeah. Yeah. It just sucks for everyone. Yeah. Don’t join a cult.

15:18 Yeah.

15:19 So, when you move out of a cult, it’s it’s kind of like starting life from scratch for a lot of people and stuff that, you know, seems like everyday

15:27 tasks to, you know, non non-cult survivors. You know, they just sort of come along naturally. They’re they’re second nature.

15:36 But for you when you left was was it hard to you know what were the most challenging

15:44 aspects of adjusting to everyday life once you were out you know for example you know simple choices about managing

15:53 time or what did what did you watch on TV were you you know did you feel comfortable watching TV listening to

16:00 music and so on what buying groceries all that sort of thing you know what what kind of everyday tasks did you find challenging

16:08 in in a general sense for people who might not know jobs businesses are actually quite integrated into the greater culture like they have

16:14 apartments they have secular jobs in the rest of the world like they have co-workers who are all their co-workers will never been part of that religion

16:22 it’s really common Yorkshire shopping TV they are restrictions music there’s restrictions so art intake there’s restrictions media and knowledge intake

16:30 there are restrictions but they really just make you they can they would like you to self police and um if somebody finds out that another member is doing

16:39 something they shouldn’t then they might turn them in or like directly say to them to their face like hey I saw you

16:46 have this rated our movie what’s the deal with that or they might keep it a secret and then use it at the right time to throw that person under the bus to

16:54 the local leadership but I grew up in a sense without that my parents were like big into music and wanted us to go have

17:02 these kinds of experiences they limited some media, but we’re kind of comfortable with Rated R essentially in our childhood. And my my mom would buy

17:11 us like explicit lyrics like rap albums when we were kids. So, I kind of don’t think I had much of a problem integrating and maybe the at 19 I think

17:20 I struggled with identity like through my 20s with identity on like what stuff is acceptable. And I did a few things where I like self- selected some of my

17:29 music or like I wouldn’t choose to listen I kept my music but I wouldn’t choose to listen to things. I was like all right that’s kind of on the edge but

17:38 that was only like a couple of short windows of time where I was trying to be trying to be quote unquote good um a good witness. So was it was it more

17:47 sort of interpersonal relationships that you kind of start that that was the struggle really like everyday tasks?

17:55 There wasn’t much difference. So So and when I got out finally like it was an incredible relief to have three full

18:05 days of my life back every week where I didn’t have to do coerced church things.

18:10 And often it was 4 days a week if you were like trying to like do some local mission with the congregation because

18:17 there’s a big push to do something from the corporate on top like move this piece of literature to your whole neighborhood and do like 60 hours a month.

18:26 So you you didn’t get that kind of thing where which happens with a lot of cult survivors is that all of a sudden

18:34 they’ve got all of this free time and they don’t I was so relieved. you you were so relieved. But some finally to read those books.

18:42 Some people experience anxiety, feel guilty for not being productive and and are constantly looking for something to do or fill their time. Did you did you experience that at all?

18:52 I think not so much. I was mostly just grateful and I would go do something really fun that I wanted to do more of all the time that had been self-restricting to do church things.

19:03 So, actually, it was quite a relief. And I think I I leaned more into travel. I’d already experienced quite a bit of travel but it was it was just oh I can

19:10 have complete liberation soon enough was living for like permanently in another country and that was like a big life dream of mine that I wasn’t sure I could

19:16 do in the context of the religion and I figured out a way to do it just teaching English to start and then doing what I actually cared about after a couple of

19:24 years of kind of establishing myself there and that felt incredible and maybe there is something you’re you’re mentioning about

19:32 not knowing what to do with the time on your hands or feeling guilty but I was like, “Oh, I know what I want to do. I’m going to” But I would like maybe go

19:39 overboard and like spend full-time hours per week diving into a passion almost as like a I need to make up for lost time.

19:48 Yeah.

19:49 Um Yeah.

19:50 I think maybe my anxiety was kind of pushing me there a bit, right?

19:53 Yeah. I’ve noticed that too with a few people we’ve interviewed. They actually um just keep on taking more more and

20:01 more hobbies on and learning more and more new stuff. I guess it’s kind of compensating for what you didn’t have.

20:09 Yeah. And I feel good about that though.

20:11 I think I I finally I think I reached recently in the last couple of years like a okay I can go with the flow. I can I need to be balanced. I need to

20:18 like listen to my body and my nervous system about what’s a healthy balance with these things where before I was like I have a mission. Especially with the movie because it was very much related to this topic.

20:28 Um I need to do this. It has to get done. And I would do things when it wasn’t healthy for me to be doing them.

20:34 Like yeah,

20:35 relistening to someone tell their most traumatic experience on camera that I interviewed them for because I need to cut it into a movie and then I’m

20:43 reliving their trauma and like experience empath experiencing deep empathy for this horrible thing. Yeah.

20:49 Like again and again and again and again and again for like two straight years.

20:52 It was that was not healthy. I would next time I’ll hire someone or just not work on that kind of project, you know?

20:58 Yeah. So, I think I I’ve learned a lot about my nervous system from doing that project, which is I’m not recommending this.

21:05 Seek professional help, you know. Yeah, for sure.

21:08 Don’t try to make a movie about your trauma and triggers. Not recommended.

21:13 No. I mean, that must been a a huge part of your recovery. Is that right? Or Yeah. I think it showed me it made me

21:22 very it made me face very directly my own issues so regularly that I was like it’s exhausting but also it showed me

21:31 introduced me to people that were doing things in a healthier at a healthier pace and then I started choosing to do

21:39 the healthier avenue which is like let’s talk to a professional about these particular issues that have come up so many times instead of just like trying to handle it alone.

21:49 which has not worked.

21:50 So in making the movie documentary, it sort of became a catalyst for your your healing like whether you intended to or

21:59 not, you ended up going on this journey of being exposed to other people’s trauma and at the same time having to deal with your own and process your own,

22:08 but yet still carry on making the documentary. That must have been quite hard.

22:13 Yeah. And I took some breaks almost out of necessity.

22:16 Yeah, that’s good. and then got back to it, which was hard cuz it’s like, oh,

22:19 here I’m facing this thing that was so hard that made me quit this important mission.

22:23 I think that’s I think that’s a great valuable lesson to mention to our listeners, you know, is is that you need to take breaks. You need you need to let the dust settle. You need to let the steam come out your ears. You need some downtime, don’t you?

22:38 Yeah. I also used alcohol. I mean, I’ve used alcohol my whole life, but like Yeah.

22:43 enjoyed it. But also during the editing of this film, I was writing to one of the guys that’s in the film that I was like, “Oh, this is like an editing

22:51 session. I’ve had a couple whisies.” And he’s like, “You’re supposed to what do you say?” Right?

22:58 Write drunk silver.

23:03 And I was like, “Oh, I’ve actually never heard that.” He’s like, “Yeah, you’re doing it the opposite. You don’t edit drunk.” That that was Hemingway, I think.

23:11 Yeah. Yeah. Good old Hemingway. What was the impetus for the movie? Have you seen it? Absolutely.

23:20 Okay. It’s fantastic. I mean,

23:22 well, how did it start or Yeah. The inspiration came from seeing so many films, well not so many, a

23:29 handful of films come out over like a 25 year period that dealt with Jehovah’s Witnesses, but then there’s also other ones that are adjacent, like ones about

23:37 Mormons, ones about Scientology, ones about other kind of like fringier, more extremist um fundamentalist groups. And

23:46 they I was like I feel like they don’t represent my journey. They they all roll credits when they the person leaves or

23:54 when the person kind of gets like more abused by the cult after getting out or something. It’s just they all kind of come away with this like, oh, it’s gross

24:02 and painful and we should pity these people who have told this harrowing story. And I was like, actually, I feel

24:09 like my life began the actual day I made a stand for myself and left. And then I started reading the

24:16 things I was like withholding and like exploring with or like holding back getting into and then going to school

24:23 and choosing to live where I wanted to live and choosing a career that I was passionate about or was super curious about and like choosing myself for my

24:32 full potential. So, and I also had some like really profound experiences after getting out that have like reshaped how I see the entire world and how humanity

24:42 works and how nature works and to roll credits at the beginning of the journey. It doesn’t make any sense to me. Like I

24:49 want to show people who’ve transcended this difficult thing and then gone and done something. Yeah.

24:54 And I I thought sure I could make a film about myself, I guess. U but I hadn’t really accomplished any of those things at that point. And I was more thinking

25:03 like how would I tell this journey that’s has a positive end like a hopeful end that might an end or a film finale

25:11 that might inspire someone to try to do that thing that they love themselves or use art to express themselves which like

25:19 I I’ve talked a lot about the film and that self-expression like saves lives or people are using art to process their

25:27 trauma but ultimately you do art because you have to or you feel inspired to and it’s like a positive thing like go do the thing get

25:36 the paint and like paint something. It doesn’t even matter what it is. Or if you do if you do art therapy great like someone can direct you to like talk about or like express on that specific

25:44 issue you have. But mostly doing art is just healthy. people should be doing art and crafts or whatever the thing is they’re passionate about as often

25:53 you know or just let’s just say often and maybe something will come out related to your trauma or triggers or past or realization will happen in the

26:01 art and it’s not that’s not necessarily the focus but yeah I kind of want to make something that had this like artistic arc to it and I felt that I have made a

26:09 lot of art in my life not as much as I’d like to I’d like to do more but that these people that are in the film they had not only done it and they’ve done it well they also captured it inside the

26:18 religion but then they also used that same self-expression to uh once

26:26 they like were more liberated and more free, felt free to express themselves fully and not coded for their strange

26:34 culty audience in their friend community and under fear of surveillance, but that they could actually say whatever they wanted like fully liberated. and they

26:42 did that and I was like that is that is like such a crazy cool arc that would transcend the classic cult documentary role credits when the person’s crying when we feel pity.

26:52 Yeah. I guess that’s what I really appreciated about your story was that I mean it was very real and very raw but

27:00 also had that feeling of hope and creativity along the the way. Yeah,

27:06 you’re right. Like that’s what m is missing often often in cult media and the reporting and the documentaries is

27:14 that okay you came from something really difficult and what’s next.

27:20 The what’s next is important huge and I I felt in general they’re kind of exploitative of the emotional weight of what these people went through.

27:28 Yeah. where people use the word trauma informed a lot when it comes to telling someone’s story.

27:33 And I didn’t have the training to like claim that that’s what I was or what I was doing. Yeah.

27:38 But I definitely came from that world and I felt that I could empathize and also not just focus on those like heavy moments of that person’s life. We’ll talk about that, but then there’s more,

27:48 you know. It’s kind of voyerism in many ways, isn’t it? Yeah.

27:52 So, so Scott, get getting back to your recovery journey. We we always say recovery isn’t linear. How do you handle

28:00 triggers or moments when the old cult think tries to creep back in?

28:06 It’s definitely changed over time. I have way more skills in that area now.

28:11 Um probably the most profound thing that I found.

28:15 I’m trying to think when it was. I probably was already working on the film as that that was kind of a goal of mine like this would be good for me, you

28:22 know, um selfishly. But I found this group called recovering fromreligion.org and they have a resource center or

28:32 resource website for like 50 different cult groups that are like highly vetted media like three videos on Earth about

28:40 this topic. They’re like, “We went through this. We think it’s safe. We think it’s very helpful and this will help like for that particular person or group or someone from that group or

28:49 adjacent to that group.” And there was this section on Jehovah’s Witnesses. And then I was like, “Oh, this is interesting.” And also they have whole

28:56 sections on narcissism. They have like experts on narcissistic abuse,

28:59 manipulation, control, and maybe even leaning into the dark triad space which includes psychopathy and sociopathy. I can’t remember exactly. No, I forget.

29:11 Olath, all the bad ones.

29:15 So I was like, oh really diving in learning about that like this religion and maybe all these religions actually have these kinds of people in leadership andor are kind of training you to be

29:23 manipulative like the leadership people oscillate through that hierarchy at times in these different groups. But I was learning about that not only for the

29:30 religion but also my family dynamics and how they are acting whether or not they are diagnosed or will ever be diagnosed in those spaces like they’re acting out

29:38 some of these things by training. And um that was really helpful. But then the probably the most impactful thing was that when I have things come up like uh

29:47 if I have a family interaction that comes as a surprise and almost always comes with some something insane that they do or say or imply or like they’ll

29:56 use some like coded language that only the cult has taught them and they’re like repeating it as like I’m going to use this against this like evil person

30:04 in my family for some reason. A lot of it I think is even subconscious. They don’t even know they’re doing it. M but like in I went to a funeral this year

30:12 for another family member and saw many of my immediate family for the first time in like 10 years or something. Wow.

30:20 So that was a lot to handle. So let’s say for that ex that thing um I had used

30:27 even years ago recovering from religion has monthly calls in a lot of places on earth and they also have a a hotline that’s like 24 hours a day in many many

30:35 languages around the world in like every time zone and it’s all volunteers who go through a training and much like UNCLT kind of what we have especially you two

30:44 have really honed in as like what’s safe how to communicate and like who’s safe to be in those spaces and who’s not and if like there’s trouble, how to handle

30:52 that. And like you really want to like maintain a healthy space for people who are really needing help or a free space to communicate without judgment.

31:04 This scenario is sort of where boundaries are really important. Like it’s not it’s not the sort of situation

31:11 that you can make boundaries up on the spot. You really need to be clear about them going into the situation, right?

31:17 Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. To give a great example, one on one call, I was in this living in in Los Angeles and there was a local Zoom call once once a month, which

31:25 I’m still on their call list. I use it once in a while,

31:28 but there was this young woman who was kind of hosting it and trained and there was these like three young people who popped on with a crew of like eight people. So, we’re on this like call with

31:36 like eight people, which is about the right,

31:38 you know, five to eight is usually what comes on and then could be more. And then there’s like these three young people like, “Oh, we’re from a college.

31:44 We just we just like to observe.” And they’re like, “In what context?” And they’re like, “Oh, we’re from this religious theology school and we want to

31:51 know what it’s like to be, you know, to interact people who are like from a cult.” She’s like, “Absolutely unacceptable. We will not tolerate

32:00 people spying, surveilling, and doing a book report on someone’s actually like they’re here for actual help. So, nice to meet you, but goodbye.” Just like

32:09 deleted them all. And I was like I was actually doing fine that particular day.

32:12 And I was like, I’m so curious what they would have said.

32:16 But like ultimately I was like, oh, but it’s also a safe space for these other seven people in the room in the Zoom call. So that kind of thing I was really grateful for.

32:23 When us three first started up uncult,

32:27 we did have a couple of inquiries from social workers who wanted to learn.

32:32 Their intention was good. It wasn’t selfish. They wanted to learn about cults to help to, you know, to to be trauma informed. I said, “Sorry, that’s

32:40 get some training kind of from the source.” that’s like that’s this is not what that’s for. This is for survivors how to help each other, you know. So

32:48 there’s there’s always um hazards with those kinds of groups, but a good co rule of conduct and and good boundaries really helps.

32:57 Yeah. And I found like even in our group in New Zealand in Christ Church with Uncult the first a couple sessions I was able to make before I left the country.

33:05 I did have some strange things happen that were tricky and I was surprised by like let’s say you have training for this kind of thing.

33:14 being able to share and then get like almost like a professional level feedback if desired or if you had something to say. But also the other

33:22 people in the group who have gone through similar or adjacent things being able to kind of like relate Yeah.

33:28 and then share on that topic was like really cathartic. Yeah. Really healthy. Yeah.

33:35 I think because the often the experience of leaving a cult is so isolating. Yeah. Yeah.

33:42 And I mean, you’re really trained to live in your mind and really trained,

33:47 you know, your thoughts are all curated and kind of grooved in there. And to start hearing other people kind of feed

33:54 back to you a similar story, you don’t feel so alone anymore. And it’s a shared experience rather than just your

34:03 paranoid thinking. When you’re in the cult, you’re told that you are the your cult is the only right one and everyone else is wrong.

34:12 So, you know, you sort of feel unique and special and you sort of carry that when you come out of the cult and you think, well, I’m I’m the only one because we were we were the chosen ones,

34:23 you know, and you s you still sort of hang on to that and you don’t it’s not until you go into a group and you see a completely different cult from a

34:31 different culture with a different language with a, you know, a completely different set of doctrines and whatnot,

34:37 but then you’re like, well, they’re so different, but we relate. so closely.

34:42 And I think that’s one of the biggest healing benefits to to peer support groups is just to be with other people

34:51 that have experience the same thing. So validate your experience and you don’t feel alone. And that that is such a cathartic feeling for everyone. I think

35:00 it’s ubiquitous across all of our group members that they all feel like that. Yeah,

35:06 I definitely sensed and felt that way from other people, even people that are from completely different countries,

35:11 languages, and a completely different cult group sharing something. I’m like, it’s exact. It’s like so so right.

35:19 Exactly what I experienced, you know? Yeah. It’s amazing.

35:22 I’m wondering if I could ask you something about how you cope when you feel like you’re being pulled back into the mindset or a dissociative state. Do

35:31 you have a specific way of dealing with those things?

35:36 I mean, I think being in nature is important. Getting out into nature,

35:39 getting some perspective, doing a physical activity is good. Yeah.

35:43 And that might be something about like exercising the nervous system. Yes. Or even just taking your mind off of it, like moving your body in some way.

35:52 Um, I found some deep like relief from certain kinds of music. Music that like really draws me in.

36:00 Yeah. going to a concert or yeah moving to the music in whatever way that is for you to play music

36:07 along that theme Scott JW’s famously don’t celebrate birthdays or Christmas you know all these forbidden

36:14 celebrations how do you feel now about the concept of celebrating yourself and other events you know after being taught

36:22 that it was an act of pride or selfishness birthdays never been a big deal for me I have celebrated a few and I find it strange change cuz it’s not a part of my

36:31 past. It’s like, oh, this is the thing people do. I should try it. And it feels a little bit like that every time. I’m not regular at birthdays. Like if it quite a few years, I’m just like, oh,

36:40 it’s just like go get a a drink or like go get dinner and a drink or something or go get dinner and like go to a concert or something like that. So, it’s like a little bit special, but I would

36:49 want to do that anyways, but it’s like we make sure we do something because I it’s my birthday. And I also like to do that with other friends. I almost feel more comfortable celebrating

36:57 someone else’s birthday than I do my own. Yeah.

37:00 But at the same time, I’ve traveled a lot, which I guess is like very selfish in the sense that like I really want to do that thing and I do it I’ve done it a

37:08 lot alone and I’ve had a lot of growth in those parts of my life where I’ve been living abroad or traveling. So, in a sense, I I guess I really leaned into that aspect of it.

37:20 Yeah. Yeah. Taking a leap doing a fun thing.

37:23 I went the other way when I came out. I was like any excuse for a party and I I just wanted to celebrate everyone else’s

37:30 birthdays mine and yeah I was any excuse for a house party. I loved it.

37:36 Yeah, house part is great. I have to agree with you on that. I did have a funny thing in the pandemic. I kind of met a bunch of people in Los Angeles. I just moved there. Met a bunch of people

37:45 really briefly because we didn’t really know each other that well and then it was like lockdown so we’re like well none of us know anyone in this city but we know each other. It’s like then it

37:53 was just like a birthday celebration every other weekend because there’s like 30 people and like it’s a couple a month. Yeah.

37:59 And it was just like we’re making an excuse for a birthday. I was like I I was so so burned out on birthdays. Right.

38:05 Of course. Yet another costume themed party, right?

38:10 It’s someone else’s whole theme and and like usually I’m like, “Oh, we have very different tastes.” So it was just funny.

38:16 I’m like I think I made up for all my lost time on birthdays.

38:19 That’s great. That’s really good. That’s one of the best ways to overcome things. It’s like inoculation in some ways.

38:25 Healing all so many parties that you just Yeah. All right, I’ve done that. I can move on. Yeah. Yeah.

38:32 Now I can choose if I want to do it in the future. Yeah. Exactly.

38:35 Shame and guilt are often used as tools of control. What specific skills have you had to learn to deal with this?

38:43 It’s actually guilt had a really big impact on me. One of the things I I had a realization right when I fully completely disconnected from the

38:51 religion like made a big stance. I was like my my realization in that moment was if somebody’s using if if I’m

38:59 experiencing guilt I need to find out who it’s coming from and recognize that they’re trying to

39:06 manipulate me rather than the theme of the guilt. So I was like, “Oo, I I’m feeling the thing I’m someone else wants

39:13 me to experience because they have like unhealthy goals and I’m their pawn and I’m not like now I’m like hyper sensitive radar to that.”

39:24 And so I haven’t really experienced guilt. And I think guilt is can be healthy.

39:28 Like if you did something not nice, of course,

39:32 but then you can apologize and there can be like a dialogue about it. But if you’re experiencing and you didn’t do anything wrong, then it’s like someone’s trying to manipulate you. It was like a

39:39 big realization in my late 20s. I was like, “Never again. I will not let that ever be a part of my life.”

39:44 I really like that. So, if there’s that sense of guilt, you kind of try and pinpoint where it came from. Check out

39:52 whether it’s a manipulation of you and kind of work through it that way. Yeah. Shame.

40:01 I mean, there’s definitely shame as well, but hasn’t had that big of an impact in my life, I don’t think, compared to guilt. Yeah.

40:08 In your recovery, have you experienced heightened moments of anxiety, things like that, depression?

40:16 I experienced actually a fair amount of regular like seasonal depression, which I’m from a very wintry place. And so,

40:24 like I think part of it just related to like the changing seasons and like everything looks like it’s dying or is dying.

40:31 Um, and then like oh, there’s a six-month winter ahead.

40:35 Mhm. And then I traveled around that time. Um, and then like that was like a oh, if you travel like depressions

40:42 disappear. So I started kind of focusing on like, oh, how can I go do something fun? So like nothing like that sets in.

40:48 I’ve actually I think just being more balanced and and also feeling I had agency helped a lot with that. And since getting out, depression hasn’t been a

40:55 thing at all. What was the other terms issues you were mentioning? Oh, it was just anxiety and depression. What mechanisms do you use yourself to,

41:05 you know, if you ever come across that situation where you’re anxious about something related to the cult is, do you have any sort of mechanisms or

41:12 strategies to to help you work out of that?

41:16 I have experienced anxieties and I think they’re generally related to loss of agency or feeling vulnerable to other

41:24 people’s control. M um that could be like the government or like they have strict laws and like somehow I’m able to get past this thing.

41:34 But on a grander sense, something that’s really deeply helped me and many others I’ve talked to is psychedelic assisted

41:43 therapy. And there’s like professional places that are trained for that. And then there’s also like a very a very

41:49 much larger probably even easier to access non-trained area there to explore. It’s like risky

41:58 to recommend that to anyone because you’re not always in the right mind state for that kind of thing.

42:02 Uh and being in heightened anxiety, you don’t necessarily that’s not necessarily the solution like that.

42:07 Quite often people are already on meds like SSRI and whatnot. And you, you know, just so that people know that that

42:15 psychedelic therapy, you you can’t be taking any of that medicine. So if you want to benefit from psychedelic therapy, you have to come off your meds,

42:23 you know, you have to do that under the direction of a doctor, but it is, like you say, a very gray area. There are very few places that are allowed to do

42:31 it legally. I think there’s some that do it with ketamin. It’s not something to be taken lightly, but you know, I’ve also heard across the years great

42:40 benefits from many people going into psychedelic therapy. And it’s it’s an interesting alternative that I think we’ll see more of in the future.

42:49 Yeah. Just to lend some credence to it,

42:52 the studies that are coming out from John Hopkins University from MAPS, which is the multi-isiplinary association for psychedelic sciences,

43:02 right,

43:02 run out of California by Rick Dolblin and quite a few others. They’re they’re kind of focusing on people who have

43:10 lived through a war torn experience or the soldiers who have done the killings or defended their land which have, you know, there’s a lot of complications in

43:18 a war. um side taking PTSD or complex PTSD and then there’s like there’s so many more.

43:25 So like in the spaces that we’re usually discussing there’s RTS which is religious trauma syndrome which is I guarantee you it’s real.

43:34 That’s where my stuff is coming from. Yeah.

43:37 And there’s millions of people who have left this one religion that I have unfortunately found myself wound up in at some point in my early life. And uh

43:44 there’s so many more cults and religious groups that are doing these behaviors.

43:48 And there’s more cultish behavior and more cultish groups, political or like YouTubers or like finance cults than ever before in history.

43:59 Yeah.

43:59 And you can do it from the comfort of your own couch on watching YouTube or whatever.

44:04 So religious trauma syndrome is for is real. Cultic abuse is real.

44:08 And the DSM, I can’t remember what that stands for, but it’s like the global book for what are the psychological

44:16 conditions. Yeah. like complex PTSD doesn’t even make it in there and RTS isn’t mentioned ever. They’re like basically saying like we don’t know it

44:24 just call kind of falls under it’s just one more niche thing under this category we discovered in the 70s with soldiers

44:31 and so like all the research is still like all right we maybe we can try to solve or like work on these problems with soldiers we’ve been talking about

44:38 it since World War II but now we’re doing something about it which in a way I’m grateful for because if you can get the government to be like all right

44:46 we’re going to protect our soldiers then it might become more readily available to people who didn’t murder murder someone or watch their friends die. You know,

44:54 you can translate research and the treatments.

44:58 That’s that’s an unusual uh kind of cultural thing with the states is that quite often technology becomes available

45:06 in the military and that trickles down to the rest of the world. And maybe maybe it’s the same with this. Yeah. Yeah.

45:14 There’s a lot of progress being made there. And I’m seeing like soldiers talk about things, talk about reality in a way that sounds like you’re just at a yoga retreat. I’m like,

45:23 right, it’s working. Wow. That’s really great.

45:28 We’ve got a few minutes left, so I’ve just got a a few kind of quick final questions. If you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left,

45:39 what would you say? Yeah, I think I would talk to my 19-year-old self and be like, “You’re absolutely right. That thing is terrible. Shunning shouldn’t

45:47 exist,” which was like my hangup then as well as later. And don’t like get away from it. It’s dangerous. You know, it’s dangerous.

45:55 Yeah.

45:55 Because then I spent the next like 8 years of my life deconstructing while still being wrapped up in the doctrine

46:02 and the culture of it all, which was very unhealthy for me. But yeah, I think just more of like a you’re on the right track kind of thing.

46:10 I I think it would help our listeners to know the sort of time gap, you know,

46:15 from now and you know until you since when you left. How long’s it been?

46:20 Yeah. 2008 is when I like cut ties completely and um I was 19. That was I was 27 then. So I

46:28 was 19. I was like year 2000. It’s now 45 26. So, it’s been 18 years, almost 18

46:36 years since I fully disconnected from that culture. And it it sometimes takes people that long or longer. Some people spend

46:44 decades unwinding it. And some never fully do it.

46:47 And I think it’s important to fully do it,

46:49 fully take down the framework that’s been built inside of you by someone else and then rebuild kind of from a a solid

46:56 foundation of like skepticism and curiosity and research. in a sense figure out kind of where you want to be.

47:03 Yeah. Try on some different identities,

47:05 try on some different ways of life for a while. Yeah.

47:07 Like it’s a clothing you don’t have to wear it forever, but just like do something else and like make it a a new routine that you’re kind of excited about and then if you don’t like it, you can shed it later.

47:16 I really like that.

47:18 So thinking about your entire recovery,

47:24 if you had to name one thing that supported you the most and that can be a person, it can be an organization, it can be some kind of self-help technique,

47:33 you know, grounding, breath work. What helped you the most in your recovery over over that period?

47:39 I’ll name a few things. Meditation’s been really good. I went from with Sam Harris’s Waking Up app, which is like a

47:47 meditation app, but it’s like from another religious, no religious context at all. He’s basically like the spiritual atheist, if you will,

47:54 self-proclaimed. And I thought the app was really helpful and good for an atheist or someone who’s like, I’m so done with faith groups. And then I did

48:01 hire a professional. I found so I’ve discovered the recovering.org and they have another group called secular

48:09 therapy.org or where they vet they vetted like a thousand therapists on earth that have like passed their more rigorous

48:16 tests than like any university. And um I found someone on there that was like I specialize in post religious therapy and

48:25 they use a technique called um well they use ESMR. No, EDMR. Yeah.

48:33 Yeah. Not ASMR. EDMR. Yeah.

48:35 Use the finger. Yeah. a finger going back and forth and you’re like it’s bilateral stimulation so it can be just like tapping on your legs or your

48:43 arms or something like that or you’re watching a finger or you’re watching you can just Google like yeah EDMR ball

48:51 oh it’s EMDR sorry we all got it wrong okay EMDR we’ll get there some I don’t remember what it stands for but basically it’s a ball that goes back and

48:59 forth and the idea is that your eyes tracking it and you’re thinking of and I guess she would say you should do it with a professional because it can bring

49:08 up all kinds of absolutely stuff. Yeah.

49:11 Um maybe eventually you could do it yourself. But the idea is like you’re coming up with a you have an issue you’re trying to dive into and like explore. You watch the ball while

49:19 thinking about that whatever thoughts come up almost like a dream state and then like all right what came up for you and then you talk about it and then like all

49:26 right let’s do some more of the ball thing. Yeah.

49:29 Um one last I found that really helpful. Sorry,

49:34 we’re slowly running out of time, which is a real shame because I’ve talked to you for hours.

49:40 What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

49:43 Well, it’s everywhere. The cultic mindset, the cultic techniques are everywhere in the world in every group of human beings.

49:51 Someone’s doing something unhealthy.

49:52 Whether it’s at your work in the hierarchy of work or the hierarchy of your religious organization you go to, um the baking club you’re a part of,

50:00 whatever the thing is, people can be manipulative. Yeah.

50:03 And if you if you think that you couldn’t be susceptible to a cult,

50:07 you’re absolutely wrong. Really smart people get wrapped up in cultish groups because they are we’re all seeking community and they are great at

50:16 providing that for you. Um, and if you find someone who’s left a cold, you could ask them for wisdom that they’ve gained from this harrowing experience

50:25 that they successfully navigated, which you might be susceptible to because you’re ignorant of it. Yeah.

50:30 Um, it’s not to say you’re ignorant as a derogatory. You just might use No, that’s that’s how it works, you know. Yeah. That’s beautifully said. Yeah.

50:39 Well, we’re with that where we we we now wrap up another episode of Unspun, unraveling the threads of cult recovery.

50:48 A huge a huge thanks to you, Scott. Um I’m sure your story will inspire um and give help to many people. Thanks a lot

50:56 for uh for being here. Thank you for spending Yeah. Thank you for spending your time with us uh from from over in the States. Where is WI anyway?

51:06 Oh, sorry. Yeah, WI in my is my home state of Wisconsin. It’s right in the center north of USA in the Great Lakes region, lakes and forests country.

51:15 We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re grateful you trusted on us enough to listen. Unspending these stories

51:22 takes courage to speak, to listen, and to feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself.

51:28 Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to. You are not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who’s quietly doing their

51:37 healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.