Episode 016 — Nicola Ranson

00:41 Welcome to another episode of Unspun, a podcast about life inside cults and high control religious groups. We discuss what it’s like to rebuild a life, identity, and self sense of self after leaving. Today we are doing part two of interviewing Nicola Ranson, looking at the topic of being a therapist and a cult survivor.

01:03 We are now on YouTube. Please subscribe to the channel, like this episode and leave us a comment. It really helps more people discover these important stories. Welcome Nicola. So great to have you back.

01:16 Yeah, great to see you again, Elisa.

01:19 Nicola, you and I both work therapeutically with people who have experienced leaving cults. I’d love to shift into a more reflective conversation about it what it’s like to do this work, not only as therapists or the approaches we use, but what the work asks of us as therapists.

01:47 say, you know, that that’s what they’ve spent their whole professional life doing and they have that level of expertise. I’m

01:57 I’ve attracted a lot of people. Well, I’m never quite sure if I’ve attracted people from different cults some in some strange way, or

02:06 if so many people actually happen to be in various cults anyhow, but then

02:22 I I I’m very similar. I don’t specifically put it out there that that’s work that I do. but I guess because I run the support group and and do this podcast, I do get yeah, it’s not my my kind of specialty specialty. I work

02:47 What drew you towards being a therapist after you left?

02:52 Well, it was something that was incomplete before I joined, because I studied theater as an undergraduate and I wrote my dissertation on drama therapy. And I was

03:11 an undergraduate, I was working in psychiatric hospitals, and it was clearly the direction I wanted to go on, because I liked working

03:18 I like the combo of f the physicality of theatre. I did a lot of street theatre, I did a lot of community theatre, I did theatre with people’s different needs and

03:55 related to my career path. So when I left, I was desperate to sort of find a way back to a work where I felt I belonged. I mean,

04:05 I was waitressing, I enjoyed that, it was good, but there was something more. And and I did massage too. And that was also

04:15 I I liked it. It was a good way to to earn a living. I liked working with the body, but still people were telling me their problems.

04:22 all the time. I thought, well, I may as well get paid for this. So

04:26 I wanted to go back to school and and that’s how I I came back into it. It was I even at high school, in my high school yeard book, it says, you know, Nicola Ranson, you know, likes writing and she likes psychology, you know. So that’s stayed with me throughout.

04:43 Yeah, yeah. And I a and so it makes sense to me that you moved from drama therapy to kind of somatic practices ’cause I guess it’s a more physical aspect of of it in some sense. Yeah.

04:58 Absolutely, because when

05:08 I kept thinking, what happened to the body? We were so much oriented to be working from the neck up. And

05:16 so there was something about both my massage practice and the drama therapy that made me yearn for some more physicality, which

05:30 it really did call to me in a way that none of the other I mean, I liked Gestalt, I liked psychodrama, but somatic experiencing

05:38 Yeah, I do too, yeah.

05:41 it just spoke to me and I thought I have to learn what this is, I have to do it. And now

05:46 I’ve been doing it for so many years, I’m shocked to find I’m one of the elders around in this.

05:52 ‘Cause it started

06:01 And now it’s like, my gosh, that was twenty four, five years ago or something.

06:05 Yeah, that’s pivotal.

06:18 Well, somatic is the Greek word for body. So this is is soma. So it’s rather a broad range. So a lot of people say they do somatic practices and they could be doing hands-on bodywork or you know, they could be doing all kinds of things. So the particular approach that I studied is called somatic experiencing. So that is one particular school. And it

06:46 As the nervous system manifests in the body. So while we’re listening to a client, we’re really addressing also what’s what’s happening in their nervous system and in ours. And Peter Levine, who evolved this method, focused on trauma, and he had a belief and understanding from his study of the physiology of animals that trauma stayed in the nervous system.

07:12 unless there was a way to allow it out, which animals tend to be a lot better at than humans. And he, I think, was really ahead of his time in evolving this approach. although a lot of I think perhaps native practitioners and like Native American dance methods, for example, they’ll say, hey, that’s that’s not new. We’ve been doing this stuff forever. So he does acknowledge

07:35 Yeah, yeah.

07:36 that, that he’s built on

07:38 you know, a legacy of other approaches. But

07:40 according to our psychotherapy field, he really brought the body into it. And a lot of the people you

07:48 hear of now who are doing this approach and that approach were his students. You know, he really

07:53 evolved it. And one of the things he did, Alisa, that I think you will appreciate as a trauma practitioner yourself, was he really brought the idea of dissociation into the trauma

08:09 he was the one who named no, it’s fight, flight, and freeze. And freeze

08:15 being this realm of dissociation in all its different levels,

08:21 is absolutely a key piece in the recovery. And in my training, that’s what we really get good at working with, which

08:33 Yeah, absolutely. I I don’t know I use the window of tolerance a lot in my work and I just find it so useful for people as a really easy way to explain how the nervous system works and people

09:00 Yes,

09:04 understanding that our physiology knows how to do this. So to me, that’s a

09:19 what we’re learning is how do we support that in happening? How

09:35 Yeah. Yeah. It’s really important work. Yeah. how do you find it beneficial to people recovering f from cults?

09:43 Well, I think the inherent capacity that we just talked about is one thing that no, if you’re feeling I’m lost, I’m absolutely lost, I don’t know right from wrong and upside down. It’s like, well, if we slow these things down a di a bit, let’s see if that’s actually true. And one of the things I like to work with is is preference.

10:12 they’ve been told what to like, what to wear, what to say, what to think. But that’s been imposed. That’s that’s a behavioral learning. So if you’re working with the body in its wisdom, there’s an innate knowing of, well, actually, I do know.

10:31 That I prefer this plant to this pen. If I’m looking at the plant and I’m looking at the pen and tracking what does it do to me, I

10:43 might actually be enjoying the plant more. You unless you, you know, you’ve been attacked by a plant and you just love writing, you know, you might have the opposite experience. But

11:52 and I teach them to, you know, what does it feel like in your stomach?

11:58 asked you to do this, if do you feel obligation or does it feel light and spacious? and I guess it’s a similar thing. It’s like learning to actually trust your body because your body kinda has this innate knowing.

12:14 And and and I think I’d also put out a word of warning, that ’cause a a lot of people sort of say, somatic, that means body. And some people who may not be that skilled in working with the body might say, Well, where do you feel that on your body? And and for a lot of people who’ve been traumatized, the body’s a really scary place to go and it’s the last thing they want to do. So

12:32 Absolutely, yes.

12:36 So it needs to be, you know, we need to be approached with incredible sensitivity. And

12:42 one of the things I find is if you’re a therapist, there’s naturally a hierarchical role that we as therapists, you know, tend to ignore because we don’t see it so much. But if someone has been subjugated, especially in a cult situation or in a domestic violence situation, they’re going to be highly sensitized to authority.

13:03 way, and and we’re conditioned as as humans in many different ways. I’m thinking of when the client sits in front of the therapist, especially noticeable in telehealth, like this, you know, and sort of frozen, like I am supposed to look at this person in the eyes, and then

13:23 somatic healing is primarily about rediscovering safety, you know, where’s the comfort? Where’s the safety?

13:31 as a therapist giving permission of no, you know, you really you don’t have to look at me if you don’t want to. You know, is there is there somewhere your eyes would rather go? And

13:42 and they go, well, yeah, I’d far rather look out the window at the pretty view. It’s like, well, why not do that? And

13:57 client and really leaning into it. No, my job is to help you trust what your nervous system where where that wants to go.

14:05 Yeah, yeah, I yeah, that’s quite powerful what you said there because I’ve had a similar experience where especially with neurodiversity, eye contact can be quite difficult and it’s just like, Yeah, look, we need or I’ve had people apologize, I just can’t I need to be look, I’m like you go for it. What you know, this is what’s right for you. I’m led by you. Yeah.

14:30 And I think that helps in restoring that sense of trust. But yeah, I th you raise a really important point in terms of if you’ve been sexually abused or you’ve been taught that your body’s a dangerous place, it it kind of ra it’s a bit is it a bit more tricky for you?

14:49 Is is that more turkey for me?

14:56 I think the only time it’s tricky is when I find myself leaning forward in my chair, trying to make something happen, you know,

15:05 or or trying to rescue, and that’s always a clue, like, I’m leaning into the other person rather than sitting back and trusting them in that process. And I think sometimes

15:16 It’s easy for me to get a little impatient if someone has no connection with their body at all. Because I have quite a lot. So I sort of go, what they can’t feel anything? What are they talking about? And that tends to happen with people who become incredibly cerebral,

15:39 You know, we’re all taught to start where the client is. And if the client doesn’t want to go near their body, why should they? You know, that that I should join them where they are in their mind. And

15:51 if it’s an intellectual discussion, we’ll we’ll work with that. And then very gently, if someone’s relaxing and starting to to I can see, that they took a deep breath, they’re coming down.

16:02 I might then sort of check in and say, how how how are you doing now? And reinforce whatever is is feeling better and taking them in the direction of better. So that’s a a

16:13 gentle way to approach body without coming in like a sledgehammer. Why can’t you feel anything?

16:21 Exactly. Do you think I’m curious about this?

16:26 With people who have experienced trauma, do you think it forces them to live more in their head and dissociate from their body? Yeah.

16:35 yeah. Yeah,

16:37 I I th I think trauma, you know, this piece of dissociation is so enormous. And and

16:48 agreed, yeah.

16:49 and I know when I went through the somatic experiencing training, no I think this happens with therapists in lots of training. You think you’re learning about how to provide something to the clients and what you’re learning about is, my God, I’m a lot more

17:07 doing developmental training and just thinking, my God, I missed out on so much. It was very distressing actually. So yeah,

17:21 and the mind, you know, it’s it does what it’s supposed to do. It figures stuff out to try and help you. And

17:29 if you’ve been injured and hurt emotionally or physically, you know, the mind’s gonna be much more active, no figuring everything out. Let’s let’s make sure we avoid any danger there and we avoid any danger there and avoid that and avoid this.

17:49 somatic experiencing, like many other approaches, is a mindfulness-based approach. And I think that’s important because I think mindfulness being no a meditative approach where there’s an observer on board. And there’s lots of ways to get that observer on board. You know, the curiosity of just seeing, what’s going on in me?

18:18 the mind if you talk about the mind being busy and active, you know, these meditation approaches are really great to know, okay, so that’s what’s going on in the mind. You know, we don’t make it wrong. It’s just

18:30 what the mind doing is doing its job. What else what’s going on in your emotion right now? So working with different

18:39 Yeah, that’s I I really like that. It’s kind of like yeah, how do we gently kind of

18:46 probe different ways of being in some sense, but not force it or yeah. It’s a gentle

18:56 Ha has being both a survivor and a therapist complicated the idea that recovery has a clear endpoint or I don’t know if that’s the right question, but

19:08 Has it been part of your process of recovery?

19:11 Has the the work been part of my process? definitely.

19:13 Yeah, or i has that been

19:15 intermingled or what’s that been like for you?

19:18 Well, I think we’re we’re working at a very deep level of intimacy with with other

19:24 people. And I am certainly learning from the people I’m working with. And for me, I think it was working with domestic violence survivors that I started to really get some lessons in, that was very cultic and

19:42 I hadn’t quite seen my cult in that through that lens. Like when people were talking about, he loves me, he loves me, but he threw me down the stairs. but still he loves me. And I started to go, my God, that’s me too.

20:24 Absolutely, that’s

20:25 a good point. and I’ve noticed I’ve got ten percent battery, so it will go at some point. So I’ll take

20:31 so self-care Atlant you mentioned that, because I find as a therapist, and I think especially as a somatic experiencing therapist, I’m I’m very aware of when my nervous system gets revved up and it gets revved up.

20:47 If I’ve seen too many clients in one day, it gets revved up if I’m multitasking. not that there’s anything I want to make bad about having revved up nervous systems, you know, that’s

20:58 that’s part of the process, but I also need to be able to come back down into that nice open window you talked about, the window of tolerance.

21:16 and be able to be present and a grounding force, as as I’m working, takes takes a lot of work.

21:24 Yeah, it does. And I yeah, it’s it’s tricky because you charge for the one hour that you see someone, but the work is so much more than that. It’s more than just taking notes. It’s it’s the the preserv preservation of yourself, it’s the learning of new things, yeah, it’s a lot that goes into that work.

21:48 Hmm. What do you think therapists commonly misunderstand about people leaving cults or high control groups? Have do you have any experience of that?

21:58 Well I have a lot of experience of clients telling me how awful their therapists were. No,

22:03 Right, yeah.

22:12 I think therapists were not always sufficiently aware of this power differential and the heightened sensitivity to someone, not only who’s been in a cult, but who’s been in any sort of abusive situation with someone else who had power over them. So I think that it’s really important for the therapist to keep humble and

22:34 To find ways to to level out that distinction. And for me, I believe in a lot of transparency. And

22:47 we’re told, you’ve got to keep this this distance, you’ve got to keep this therapeutic.

22:52 Yeah. And I basically think that’s bullshit, you know.

23:00 I mean, to honor, yes, of course, we need to have good boundaries. We’re not opening up ourselves. We’re not making, not telling our problems. You know, we’ve got to stay in the role where the client is the

23:12 priority. But the client wants to know what my beliefs are, what my spiritual beliefs are. I think they should know that because they’ve come from a cult where transparency was not a thing.

23:26 Very often if I share something, you know, a little bit personal and I usually have a little mental process of is this appropriate? Is this gonna be helpful? It can often be the most useful thing I’ve done because the other person is so appreciative of you’re you’re human too, you struggle with that too. And

23:56 Yeah, I I’ve done some training on intentional peer support along with my other training. And so yeah, I’m firmly in the camp of I mean, it’s sharing my experience where it’s appropriate because the therapeutic benefit of that is is big in terms of putting people at ease and kind of

24:23 And and it gives them hope. I mean, I was

24:26 living homeless on a beach at one point here, you know,

24:29 and and I know what it’s like to be broke. so if that’s appropriate for someone who’s been through that, you know, it it gives them some sense of you’re not just this privileged middle class person, which I also am, but

24:48 No, I don’t wanna this this came up a lot working with refugees, as I worked with survivors of torture and refugees for a long time. And I would

24:56 still, you know, never say I was a refugee. My experiences were nothing like that. And I

25:02 am aware of my privilege. And yet in my heart of hearts, I also feel coming out of the cult and not being able to understand the culture and being so alienated from the culture.

25:14 does give me sort of an entree understanding. Yeah, this this is hard to figure out. You wanna figure out the American

25:20 medical system? You know, good luck.

25:24 Yeah, for sure. Yeah, and I I mean I think a lot of the like when I’m interviewing people about their cultic stories, the the processes around how they manage when they come out and the stories are very similar to other stories of recovery, like you just identified, yeah.

25:48 what qualities do you think a therapist needs to do this work well beyond the knowledge of trauma and cult dynamics?

26:15 too you’re from a caldo, how awful you know that that’s incredible.

26:19 Yeah,

26:19 just it’s awful, yeah.

26:22 I’m kind I just kindness to me. I mean, if I go to someone, I want them to be kind and really not judgmental. I mean, the judgmental piece I think cult survivors are very, very, very sensitive to. And

26:36 Very attuned to it, yeah.

26:38 and yeah, the this like anyone who’s been abused, you know, people are hyper, hyper attuned to what’s going on.

26:49 If they’re feeling judgmental and it’s getting in the way, own it.

26:58 And being willing to to read and study and watch cult videos and really learn what the client needs them to learn. I think there’s a lot of therapists, especially those experienced in trauma, who would be really, really good with this population, but is a little unsure and I think if they take some of the courses that are available, I know Yanya Lalic, they’re doing

27:26 CEU courses, they’re just terrific.

27:30 Yeah, and Julie Jenkins training, I did a week of her training. It’s great. But yeah, I think it’s yeah, I think you’re right, especially around the trauma stuff. because of all the nervous system things, but also working with tr trauma, you’ve got to be so kind of attuned to where that person’s at and yeah, that kind of humanity and humbleness in some sense.

27:54 And non judgmentalness that makes a huge difference, I think. Yeah.

28:09 I know when I’ve worked with clients who’ve been in different groups or the troubled teen industry, for example, where

28:17 I felt like I really don’t know enough about that. You know, I watch the documentary, you know, I read the book, I

28:29 And I think going to conferences, you’ve got decult coming up where you where you

28:34 are and I don’t know where Ix’s is gonna be, but a lot

28:40 Yeah, I think so too, for sure. But yeah, and I’m I kind of resonated with your experience of I’ve worked with people who’ve grown up with narcissistic parents. and the clients are all talking about the same things, you know, about how

29:03 complete lock of loss of self. so similar to being in the cult or being raised in a cult. So yeah, I I agree totally with what you’re saying.

29:13 And and so many therapists, you know, they go, I don’t think I could work with a cult, but they already have the skills because they’re already working with those families. They’re working

29:19 Yes, yes.

29:22 with people from those sorts of relationships. They they do have the skills, it just needs a little fine-tuning. Or

29:37 Absolutely. That’s I think that’s vital is having, you know, a good peer relationship or supervision relationship with people have experience. Yeah. I’ve just started working doing a lot more work with couples and I’ve found a couples therapist supervisor and she’s just been amazing. Yeah.

30:02 And what’s your somatic interest? Do you have a particular somatic modality you use?

30:07 it’s that’s interesting you should ask. a couple, well, as when I was younger I was working in the adventure therapy field. So and that’s just so kind of

30:43 Yeah, by Eugene Gendlin.

31:00 because i it yeah, it was interesting because the art therapy training I did, they bought the focusing aspect into it. So

31:09 does Peter Levine, he credits that with an aspect of the somatic experiencing. Yeah.

31:35 they’re just yeah, they’re just at the beginning of their journeys and want to kind of take things slowly and build trust and kind of move that direction eventually. But yeah, that’s been my experience, yeah.

31:49 I think with deconstruction, the cognitive piece is absolutely vital because you’ve been

31:56 taught not to use your critical thinking. And it’s imperative to start to use the critical thinking to see, well, what went on and how

32:06 did it happen and how was my thinking hijacked? And what do I really believe? And seeing the methodology of

32:14 Cult leaders or narcissistic individuals, and

32:18 seeing, you know, how does gaslighting actually work? How did someone lead you into a situation where you doubted yourself and abnegated yourself and lost yourself? And as you see how it happens and the makeup of the narcissist, which I think is so

33:10 piece is huge and you know, it probably needs to happen before you get into much bodied stuff.

33:16 Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. It is it is I found it for me in encountering people like narcissists out in the world just such a complete shock. because I just assume that everyone worked from my operating system, which is yeah,

33:33 Exactly. We grew up in our own little bubbles, yeah.

33:41 Yeah, and I watch clients kind of getting that learning that actually they don’t think and feel the same way we do. It’s it’s not a

33:52 It’s a per it’s a personality thing, but it’s a much kind of different way of operating on the planet in some sense. Yeah.

33:59 Yes, absolutely.

34:01 Well, I I’ve been very entranced with Daniel Shaw’s recent book as I came across it at the last conference I was at, the Traumatic

34:13 encapsulates how a narcissist of a certain kind, not all narcissists, but some narcissists that he puts in this category really have to have the people subjugated to them.

34:27 so it makes this perfect partnership of whether it’s an abusive husband or parent or cult leader, whatever it is. And his theory of this kind of narcissist is that there’s a psychotic factor. And

34:42 I found that really interesting because we do, you

34:45 know, when you’re trying to figure out the cult leader, you know, and a lot of these other people, well, they seem to believe themselves, you know, they believe their own story.

34:52 Absolutely. Yes,

34:55 so I think there is a delusional part. and he talks about the necessity of the dissociation as the the one who is subjugated buys into well, if I want this kindness and appreciation and positivity I’m getting, I guess I have to overlook or this completely contrary behavior. And

35:19 spin out and go into a bit of a fog. And yeah,

35:23 An altered universe in a sense, yeah.

35:32 he talks in this book about how to come back, you know, to your true self and really understand, you know, how it was abnegated, how you took the narcissist shame and took it upon yourself.

35:46 and it’s not yours, it’s not yours, it’s theirs so we have to

35:52 Mm. Yeah, that’s yeah, that’s powerful. I’m gonna have to check that book out. I was I followed very closely the Laurie Daybell do you know of this case? The there was a Mormon couple and they got together and ended up murdering family members and it

36:55 back that dissociation again, you know, that’s I mean, delusion would be dissociation to, you know, very high extreme where it’s all

37:02 Yeah, yeah.

37:07 But you disconnected from from feeling, you know, from from

37:11 way back when probably. And when you’re disconnected from feeling and empathy, it makes it so much easier to manipulate people.

37:20 Yeah. Yeah, it’s when we dehumanize people that we have the ability to be cruel. Yeah.

37:26 Yeah, exactly.

37:28 And I think, you know, as as people recover from these sorts of relationships and situations, that dissociation does start to leave, and it means you’re going to actually be feeling the things you couldn’t feel at the time. And that’s

37:44 that’s scary, but mostly the fear is about feeling it. If it’s

37:49 safe enough and you’re ready, the feeling of it once you start to go there.

37:54 It isn’t necessarily that bad, especially if you’re with a trained therapist or someone who really understands this dynamic. They can be there, you know, holding your hand as you do start to feel and you do start to come alive and you

38:08 do start to feel the grief of all that was lost, and the fog clears.

38:14 Is that your experience?

38:16 Yeah, absolutely. I mean even for myself. Like my go-to is kind of shutting down. I’ll go to sleep.

38:25 I like to sleep. Or I yeah, dissociate or yeah, and if some if I have a really big trauma, I I go numb.

38:34 And it takes me a long time to come out of it. And yeah, that’s it’s as a therapist going through that, it’s such a bizarre experience ’cause it’s kind of like, I know I should be sad right now, but I can’t feel anything. Yeah.

38:50 It’s very interesting, isn’t it? Yeah.

39:15 And it was, my God, I wonder what that

39:25 but I felt like, this is a this is a strange sort of shutdown of not being so identified and empathetic. I was literally sort of cold and no what clinical in the worst definition.

39:41 I just thought, well, that was curious. I wonder what was going on there. And then after the session, when I’d finished my work day, I was walking through some beautiful woods and through these trees, the eucalyptus trees, and suddenly out of nowhere I started sobbing. And

39:57 there was this big, big sobbing. And I realized, my God, I had been holding that in during

40:12 And I sort of knew it, but I didn’t fully know it. And I had no idea all this emotion was underneath it. And after

40:18 I’d had my my big cry, you know, I I came back fully in my body and and I was fine. But it it felt like, that’s a very interesting free state. And it’s a sort of state that would allow you to

40:30 start to identify with the perpetrator as as well as the victim. You know, just a very cerebral cut off from emotional motion state.

40:40 And you know, I’ve had a few of those in in other circumstances. I go to in my memoir,

40:48 also very, very shocking. But it’s it’s a real thing. And I think

40:55 subjected to hearing horror stories over and over again, of course they go into their own survival modes and that involves

41:02 a certain degree of a d detachment. And if that’s not taken care of, we become one of those callous, horrible, busy providers who’s not kind to our clients.

41:13 Yeah. Yeah, it’s it’s powerful. I and I guess in in the scenario you just talked about it was like, well, you’ve got to continue on with the interview and you can’t stop sobbing in the middle of it, so freezing is good. It’s effective in that moment, I guess. Yeah. Mm.

41:32 It it it did work, yeah, but

41:38 Yes, yeah. And that was the bit

41:41 that surprised you?

41:42 Yeah, but I’d also felt like I’d done enough work that I could observe it

41:51 Right. Yeah, that makes sense.

41:53 And as long as we have our observer there, no we can keep going and attend to things. But it was

42:01 Right. Yeah. Yeah, I find being in nature one of the best things possible. Or a and

42:07 Yeah, yeah.

42:08 that was the thing about doing adventure therapy too. It was bringing people, in touch with that sense of awe, you know, the power of nature and the power of being outside and yeah.

42:20 It for you in the peer groups because I’m I’m not one to push people into therapy. You know, I think it it takes a while to trust and be ready for that sort of thing. It certainly was the last

42:36 I’ve worked with people who found an incredible amount of healing, surfing, for example,

42:42 and and with nature, you know, immersing in

42:47 The stories you hear does is that also a huge support for people that alongside therapy?

42:53 yes, if they find it. Yeah. I often encourage as part of that kind of journey of finding out who you are and what you like, hobbies, sports, that can be such an incredible part of healing because

43:11 it occupies you, it gets you physically doing something.

43:15 It starts you socializing with people who are interested in the same things you are. There’s often a degree of technical kind of nouse required. It’s just such a yeah, so I really try and encourage people to develop hobbies or sports or yeah.

43:34 And and the sports too would would help with you know summoning some some healthy aggression, some of that fight response, or I’m gonna feel my muscles and I am strong. But

43:47 most important, it’s what you choose. It’s what appeals to someone, like and maybe like with me, you know, connection to what they had before the cult, where their strengths were.

43:58 Yeah, exactly. it’s been amazing having this conversation with you. I’ve hardly had to use any of my questions, which is great.

44:06 I guess we need to bring this session to a close and yeah, it’s been a real honour to have you on the podcast and to hear your story and your therapist’s perspectives on things. Yeah.

44:21 you so much, Elisa. I really I’ve really enjoyed it and I really appreciate

44:26 it. And I it’s nice to know we’re in the same world, even though one or the other is upside down, which pinning

44:44 I

44:46 Yes, do. Come and we’ll have a a coffee and a therapist catch up.

44:51 All right. Well, thank you so

45:00 I did, I

45:01 really enjoyed it. Yeah, it was a fabulous week.

45:06 That’s right, and a slice of orange. all right, so and now we wrap up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you to you, Nicola. I’m sure your story will inspire and give hope to many people. Thank you for spending time with us. Unspinning these stories take courage to speak, to learn, to listen.

45:27 and feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, reach out if you need to. You’re not alone in this. We honour everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their healing work. Thank you for what walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.