Episode 011 — Debrief

00:41 Welcome back to Unspun. While we did it, we’ve released our first episodes and honestly, we couldn’t think of a better time to pause and reflect. When we first started this podcast, we had a simple hope to create a space where people with lived experience of high control groups and coercive relationships could share their stories with honesty, compassion and without sensationalism.

01:05 What we didn’t expect was just how much these conversations would shape us too.

01:10 Over the past ten episodes we’ve had the privilege of hearing incredible stories of courage, loss, resilience, and recovery. We’ve laughed, cried, been challenged, and found ourselves thinking about these conversations long after the microphones were turned off. One thing that’s become really clear is that no two stories are the same, but there are threads that run through them all.

01:30 Yeah. Today we’re stepping away from interviewing guests and instead having a conversation with each other. We’ll be reflecting on what it’s been like to be first-time podcasters, what we’ve learned about recovery, why these stories matter, and some of the patterns we’ve noticed across our guests’ experiences.

01:48 Recovering we’ve discovered isn’t simply about leaving a group, it’s about rebuilding trust, recovering, rediscovering identity, learning to live with uncertainty, finding our voice again, and slowly home coming home to it yourself. So grab a cup of tea, settle in and join us as we look back on our first episodes.

02:08 This will be our first episode on YouTube. If you want to catch our earlier pods, look for Unspun on all the platforms. So today we’re going to be asking each other questions and Jaya will kick us off.

02:20 So when we first started Unspun, what what were we hoping it would become?

02:25 Well, for me, I was wanting it to become an evergreen resource for people who are leaving high control groups, cults, or experiencing like religious trauma. and I think that, you know, we’re making a really strong start in that direction and the feedback’s been pretty awesome about those like participating in the podcast and also those listening so far. Do you think?

02:48 Yeah, yeah, the the response has been really great and and people really understand what we’re doing. it feels that we’re providing a podcast that is a little bit different from all the rest.

02:59 Yeah.

03:00 because we’re so focused on recovery and and I think I think I think the survivors most of all appreciate that.

03:07 Yeah, I agree. Yeah, for sure. Jaya has been making the podcast what you expected.

03:15 no, I’ve I have done a few podcasts in the past and everyone is different.

03:20 Right.

03:22 Yeah, it it’s it’s I didn’t expect to to be so moving. you know, it’s listening to people’s stories they can be quite emotionally affecting. So when you come out of a podcast, it’s it’s

03:36 You know, it’s a it’s a nice feeling and you know, you’ve wrapped up another podcast and you thank the guest, but you know, there’s a quite often there’s a bit in your heart where you feel for them and it can be quite emotional sometimes.

03:49 Yeah, I would totally agree. I yeah, that’s that’s what I didn’t expect either. And the

03:55 Yeah.

03:56 I think the empowering nature of hearing those story stories, but also for the guests, like that’s the feedback we’ve been getting that it’s quite an empowering process, which has surprised me.

04:09 Hm. And i is that is that something that you’ve enjoyed most about becoming a podcaster is empowering the guests?

04:15 Yeah, particularly with this podcast for sure. Definitely. Yeah. Yeah.

04:20 What’s been harder than you imagined?

04:22 finding a diversity of guests.

04:25 Mm-hmm.

04:27 we we’re overwhelmed with ex Jehovah’s Witnesses. they seem to be prolific, certainly in this area.

04:34 Yeah.

04:37 but it’s it it’s been finding people that are

04:40 that are al along their healing journey enough that they’ve they’ve had time to process it and they understand it and and they can explain it. And a lot of people that we come across who we might like to have on the podcast who or who want to be on the podcast maybe aren’t ready because they’re still they’re

04:57 Yeah, yeah.

04:58 still processing a lot and

05:01 Yeah.

05:02 they they’re still sort of going through that healing process. So

05:05 You know, that’s that’s been quite hard to find the right the right candidates ’cause we really need people who who’ve been through it a little bit and and and understand what they’ve been through.

05:15 Yeah, and they’ve got kind of really good we need people who have good insight into their recovery and kind of how they got there.

05:23 Yeah.

05:24 Yeah. Yeah.

05:25 Yeah. It’s it’s been it’s been interesting because we’ve we’ve aired ten episodes, and we’ve got a lot more in the bag. But you know, it seems that there are themes that keep appearing, you know, throughout all these episodes and and you know, maybe you can talk through some of those themes that have popped up.

05:45 Yeah. I think the themes that I’m hearing are I guess what struck me is around deconstruction. I didn’t really have a strong perception or strong idea about deconstruction and how much of an importance that plays in your recovery jour journey. And I think

06:08 like p in particular I think it’s one of the most important things for survivors of high control and cult groups. so that’s one theme that’s come across. I think the other theme too is depending on whether you were born into a cult or whether you joined one, the experiences are

06:30 not different but there’s a different I don’t know quite how to say it. When you’re born into a cult and and it’s all you know, the experience of leaving is so the journey is long and difficult and it’s such a I think it because you’re bo raised in it, it’s embedded in you in such a deep way.

06:52 whereas

06:52 Yeah.

06:53 a join as an adult, you have an experience of what life was like before the cult. So I believe it’s easier to go back than to leave if you were born into it. That was another thing.

07:06 Well, yeah,

07:07 I’m as I I mean we were both born into into cults and I I was

07:11 Yeah.

07:12 you know, I was you know, I’m fifty one now and I’m still unraveling behaviors and memories and all kinds of things that I’ve learned. th that I picked up as as

07:22 Yeah.

07:23 growing up in a cult and I’m still learning to shed those today, you know, the

07:28 Yeah. I am totally.

07:29 it it’s surprising that even

07:30 you know, s things come up.

07:33 Yeah.

07:34 and yeah

07:36 The grade.

07:37 I I mean I’ve been surprised by a lot of things about people’s journeys and some of the threads and themes that keep coming up and one of them being one of them that surprised me was that a lot of leavers don’t

07:52 want to leave their spirituality behind. and quite

07:56 Yeah, yeah, that’s a really good point. Yep.

07:59 and and quite often they are searching for something else and they’ll go to another church or they’ll look into some Eastern philosophy or and I I you know, I was surprised by that because for me the last thing I wanted when I left Falangong

08:16 in twenty twelve the last thing I wanted was to have anything to do with the cult or anyone or any other religion. And

08:24 Yeah.

08:24 yeah, I just I just sort of it wasn’t that I threw the baby out with a bathwater, I just didn’t believe in anything anymore. Yeah,

08:30 You threw the baby and the bathwater out.

08:33 no, I didn’t I didn’t I didn’t believe and

08:37 Yeah.

08:37 you know to d to this day I’m very skeptical about anything religious or spiritual.

08:42 I’m very cautious. but I d you know, I don’t

08:45 Yeah.

08:45 judge others for having those beliefs, but it was just something that surprised me. And the other thing that surprised me was you know, ’cause Falun Gong has quite anti homo you know, like very homophobic and some racist qualities to

09:03 Yeah.

09:04 to the cult and you know, I sort of

09:06 when I left I sort of I’ve I left all of that behind. I didn’t carry that on. I didn’t I didn’t sort of continue that homophobic view. because it was never really a part of me. But

09:13 Yes, that perspective. Yeah.

09:18 I found that some survivors who come out, especially those who are born into cults, have a much more stronger feeling about things like homophobia and

09:29 And things like that they they still sort of hold on to onto those beliefs which, you know, is in a sub in a way quite shocking, but

09:38 Yeah.

09:40 in another way it’s completely understandable. And again I think we just have to remember that’s that’s part of their journey and it’s not necessarily where they’ll end up, you know, like they not they might not necessarily

09:50 Absolutely.

09:51 stay like that.

09:52 Yeah. I get sorry.

09:53 so it there’s a lot of like

09:55 with yeah, with with Uncult and the and the podcast, you know, we have t we have to you and I have to be able to be non judgmental and compassionate to people whilst holding similar or different viewpoints, you know,

10:11 Yeah.

10:12 conflict conflicting viewpoints and that’s you know,

10:15 Yeah.

10:15 that’s that’s been a surprise to me.

10:17 Right, yeah. Sure. I th to your

10:17 I mean

10:20 earlier point about people leaving and not wanting to leave their spirituality behind, like for me when I left, I immediately jumped into something different. So I kinda went cult hopping for a while. I wanted

10:34 Mm.

10:35 something to replace because I think when you leave you leave this whole system that sets your life up.

10:42 And I’m

10:42 Hm.

10:43 like, I but I need something to help me or to guide me and it it helped me to feel not so lost.

10:52 Mm-hmm.

10:52 but the danger I think in that is that you make yourself vulnerable to just go to another cult. Yeah. So I guess I can understand

10:59 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, I mean

11:01 the need. Yeah.

11:03 totally I went cult hopping after I left home and that’s how I ended up in Falun Gong.

11:06 Mm. Yeah.

11:10 but yeah it was you know, luckily you know, the the cults I were involved in I didn’t get inv I g I didn’t get too heavily involved in and the cult I was born in was not as destructive as Falun Gong.

11:24 Yeah.

11:26 you know, Falun Gong was very destructive and very extreme and

11:30 you know, sort of change my view on everything. and talking about that, you

11:31 Yes. Yeah. You’d kinda had your fill by

11:37 then, is that right? Yeah. Yeah.

11:38 Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I talk

11:42 I mean talking about you know, having your perspective changed, has has any of the guests that we’ve had completely changed your perspective or informed your perspective on on how leaving

11:54 I I don’t

11:56 a cult is?

11:57 I don’t think I’ve had my perspectives completely changed, but I think it’s helped me clarify or understand the process a bit better or how people react to leaving and what they do to help themselves kind of re find or sometimes find their own voice.

12:16 I really Jonas was one of the people we interviewed that helped me clarify the activism around being in a cult or protesting

12:28 Yeah.

12:29 cults, especially with his perspectives on it being a human rights issue. Like for me that helped me understand that it’s not

12:39 necessarily about all the sensationalist, terrible, ghastly things that happen, but more about people’s ability to determine their own future, to get education,

12:51 Mm-hmm.

12:52 to have a right to earn their own money, those kind of things. And I think when

12:58 Mm-hmm.

12:58 we bring the arguments back to human rights,

13:01 It enables religions, spiritual organizations to exist, but with the goal of enabling people to have their rights. That was big for me. Yeah.

13:13 Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah, totally.

13:16 Mm. Have these conversations changed the way you understand your own experience?

13:21 yeah, yeah, absolutely. you know they quite often spark off memories, and you relate your own experience to

13:29 Yeah.

13:30 anyone you’re interview interviewing. So y you know, if they talk about a s a situation that’s happened to them, and it’s happened to you, y you sort of compare and

13:40 and you know, and contrast and and sort of say, you know, w was that the same for me, how was it different?

13:46 Yes, yeah.

13:49 I I think you know, I wouldn’t say changed as in like a sea change or or like a massive change, but they’re

13:57 Yeah.

13:57 certainly given me a much more broader perspective on on my own situation

14:04 And

14:05 Yeah.

14:06 I find that the mo as I go along the more nuanced and complex it gets. there’s so much to it and

14:13 Yeah.

14:16 I mean for for me I think w one of the biggest realizations I think going through this whole process is that

14:24 Recovery really is a lifelong journey. especially

14:27 Yeah, definitely.

14:30 if you’ve been born into a cult. You know, that

14:32 Mm-hmm.

14:32 it you know, it’s a it’s a lifelong journey of recovery. But even if you’ve just been in a cult for a few years, the damage looks the same to me. You know, you know, we

14:41 Yeah.

14:41 have we’ll we’ll have eight people round the table and some have just left a cult and some left a cult thirty years ago.

14:47 And yet everyone’s still talking about the same thing, about the same problems,

14:51 Yeah.

14:51 about coercive control, about shame, about anger, about guilt, all of these all of these emotions that you experience when you come out. And you know, that

15:02 Yeah yeah.

15:03 you know, that’s very interesting.

15:05 Yeah, I found that too and what I really was powerful me for me we also run a support group, so that’s why we’re talking about the group. But yeah, what was power for

15:16 powerful for me in the group was that, you know, I’d be sharing my story and there’d be people in the room from, you know, so many different and varied groups and they’d be all nodding their heads in agreement, like they knew

15:29 Mm-hmm.

15:30 what I was saying and I know what they are saying. And that’s pretty incredible. Yeah.

15:36 Yeah,

15:36 it’s it’s it’s one of the most valuable parts of gathering face to face and there’s something about the energy in the room when

15:44 Yeah.

15:44 everyone realizes they’re in a safe space and they’re not gonna be judged and they can just

15:49 Yeah.

15:50 say what they wanna say and people will understand, they don’t have to explain it, people just get it. And I think just that aspect in it

15:58 in itself a al alone is such a relief for people. yeah, and it

16:02 Doesn’t it? Yeah, I think so too.

16:05 and it’s it’s something I mean sure you can get it online and online groups, but I feel like it’s much better in person.

16:13 Yeah.

16:14 you know, yeah, where you can get all the fuels.

16:17 Absolutely.

16:18 So so to you, Alisa, w what do you think recovery actually is?

16:25 that’s such a big question. I’m not a hundred percent sure how to answer that. I guess it’s a process. and I’m not too sure about the term recovery. I don’t know if I like it or not, but it’s the word we’ve got, I guess. like

16:39 it’s probably more a better word is probably discovery, like we’re discovering new stuff all the time about ourselves and as we look back we’re discovering new angles of our journey. and so

16:54 The other thing I guess is it’s not linear. We can feel like we’re progressing and feel really free of the experience sometimes and then, you know, something will happen during our day and you’ll go, you know, I’m right back to that small person who doesn’t have a voice and that can be really upsetting.

17:13 I suppose also recovery suggests that you had a life outside of a cult before. So

17:19 Exactly, yeah.

17:20 if you were bought into a cult, re recovering what exactly? What are you recovering? You know.

17:24 Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

17:27 but it I mean it I think it means more in terms of re recovering your h humanity.

17:32 Yeah.

17:33 I think that’s what it means. Perhaps healing healing journey is a better

17:37 Yeah.

17:37 is a

17:38 you know, is a better way to say it. But yeah, i i recovery does mean different things to different people, you know, because of their

17:45 Yeah, it does.

17:46 various experiences.

17:48 I

17:48 think it’s the closest kind of term we’ve got and I’m quite a s I studied anthropology, so language means a lot to me. but I’m I

17:56 Yeah, yeah. Language is very important.

17:59 it is and but so I think recovery, the word is really good. People understand it, it’s very clear, it’s a clear concept. and a lot of people from other areas, like addiction,

18:11 understand that language, but yeah, I th it’s yeah, it’s a process for sure. Yeah. Yeah.

18:17 it is a long process.

18:19 Before we started the podcast, what did you think that recovery looked like? Has that changed, do you think?

18:26 well I w you know, I w went through it I think it’s different for different people, but my experience was that it was very traumatic. it was

18:36 Yeah.

18:36 traumatizing to go through therapy, traumatizing to realise that I had been in a cult.

18:43 Mm.

18:44 and you you suddenly have all of these sort of cascade of feelings.

18:49 Yeah.

18:50 you know, anger that you you’ve missed out on life, that you’re behind your peers, that you’ve been duped, that your health isn’t any good, perhaps your relationship

18:59 Yeah.

19:00 isn’t as good as it should be with your partner. so all of that stuff is really, really heavy heavy stuff and quite often you’re going through all of it at once. and I so so that’s the

19:11 Yeah. It’s like a almost floor of shit.

19:15 That is what recovery looked like for me, but it’s not necessarily

19:19 Mm.

19:20 like that for everyone.

19:22 Yeah.

19:23 I think I think the answer is is recovery looks different for every for every person, although

19:29 Yeah.

19:29 there are similar threads going through and I think you know, talking about similar threads, you know, I I I find that people get stuck in the weeds about

19:38 determining what a cult is, for example.

19:42 Yeah.

19:44 but you know, it’s easy to define when you look at it through the lens of coercion and control. so you don’t have

19:51 Yeah. Range.

19:52 to sort of mark off a checklist of things that make it a cult or not. If there’s

19:58 Yeah.

19:58 coercion and control, then that’s enough. You know, that

20:01 Yeah.

20:02 it you don’t have to name it a cult if you don’t want to, but if there’s coercion and control

20:06 in the group that you’re in, then that’s enough to you know, to to make you want to leave. And you know, that you know, that looks different for everyone.

20:17 Yeah, does. Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

20:19 Wha what about you? What ab going through this process,

20:22 You know, y you’ve you know, we’ve talked to various cult leavers and you know, what’s what’s the is there one thing that you’ve learned about healing that you didn’t know before?

20:34 Good question. Hard question. I don’t know. I I I guess because I’m a therapist I have a pretty broad knowledge about that sort of thing. I think what has actually I think what is new and I did know this before, but the it’s been put more sharply into focus was

20:54 the ability of creativity to play a huge role in recovery. You know, like we’ve had musicians, we’ve had comedians, we’ve had artists, all sorts of people doing really creative things and it’s been so

21:09 Yeah.

21:10 crucial for their recovery to be able to I guess find that sense of flow

21:17 And in something that’s so absorbing that helps you to step outside of yourself, but also give you a sense of achievement and s individuality. That’s

21:30 Yeah.

21:30 been I guess that’s been you is realising the depth or the power of creativity to create change, yeah.

21:39 Yeah, I

21:39 I’ve definitely noticed that that especially in in survivors that have an art an an artistic outlet of some kind, to

21:48 Yeah.

21:49 me they seem to deal with it better. Their

21:51 Yeah.

21:51 their process is you know, not saying it’s not any harder or difficult, but they they do seem to handle the situation better and they seem to be doing better.

22:01 You know, those those with a creative outlet, whether it be com you know, a comedian or music or art or whatever it is.

22:09 Filmmaking. There’s

22:10 so much you can do with creativity. Yeah.

22:13 Yeah, I I think I mean, going back to what we were talking about, you know, about the word recovery, you know, recovery isn’t just about leaving, it’s about rebuilding.

22:23 Yeah.

22:26 have you noticed that?

22:27 absolutely. Yeah. I think that kind of discovering things that you’re really passionate about, like creativity, is I think that’s one of the key things that I believe helps people recover. Yeah. Something you can really stick

22:41 And what it

22:42 yourself into that you identify with. ‘Cause we’re both artists too. So we’re both

22:46 Well yeah Yeah, yeah

22:48 w we w yeah, absolutely.

22:49 kinda know that on a really deep level as well. Yeah.

22:53 Yeah, no my my art is my salvation. It ki you know, it keeps me going when I’m when I you know I I’m a la at a lack of what to do with myself, I can just focus on my art for a while.

23:05 Yeah.

23:06 And it’s it’s kind of like meditation.

23:08 Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

23:10 And it’s also at the beginning of my healing process, you know, I I did a lot of art around my therapy. It’s very specific to my therapy,

23:18 Mm-hmm.

23:19 art sort of depict

23:21 the therapy tools and you know like safe spaces and all these all all these tools. So I

23:25 interesting. Yeah.

23:28 I took all of these tools to help remind me to to use them and and so I made them into a piece of art. And so I look at that art and I, you know, okay, this is the tool that I need for this situation.

23:41 Yeah.

23:43 and I I think one of the things that can that came up in

23:46 and my recovery and my therapy was you know the the big one of the biggest things going in actually was identity. you know, I I

23:53 Absolutely.

23:54 wanna I wanted to know what was Falongong, what was cult and what was me. And because

24:00 Yeah.

24:01 cults had been part of my life almost all of my life, you know, I d I had just I had

24:04 Yeah, speaking

24:06 no nowhere to start. And

24:08 Yeah.

24:08 I was gonna ask you, you know, why why do you think that that’s a thing that comes up in nearly every conversation we have with survivors is why why do you think identity is so important as a a as a topic?

24:21 because when you’re in a place of coercive control or in a cult you lose your identity. Like the whole the sole purpose of a cult or a coercive group is that you function as a group. There’s no room for individuality. the group needs you to be to lose your identity in order for it to

24:46 reach its objectives. So

24:48 Yeah.

24:50 it’s not encouraged, it’s a actually discouraged. and it when you start to push back or when you have different ideas, that’s when the control really starts.

25:02 Yeah.

25:04 yeah, for sure. So identity is just that it’s huge in terms of being able to build your own life.

25:12 Being able to have your own voice and agency and being able to determine your future, yeah, it’s massive.

25:18 Yeah, yeah. Identity is is pretty much core in anyone’s healing journey.

25:24 Yeah. What do you think gives people hope?

25:27 well I think things like the group, like the support group, really give people hope.

25:32 Yeah. Yep.

25:35 when they go there and they’re quite surprised, look, there’s lots of other people here and

25:40 Mm.

25:40 wow, they’re f they’re you know and they get to see people’s different people are at different stages in the journey and they can see people that have

25:48 Yeah.

25:48 really really like you know, I’m thinking of people like Royden

25:52 Royden Gibbs

25:52 Hm.

25:52 who we interviewed, he’s an X JW, but he’s he’s come a long way and is really wise and

26:00 Yeah.

26:00 understands understands the the dynamics and the process and everything very well and he he’s an ex JW.

26:07 Yeah.

26:08 so I think of people like like Roydon and he

26:11 You know, he doesn’t need the group, as it were, to help himself, but he comes to the group to support others. Yeah, yeah. He’s there to support others

26:14 Yeah. Yeah, ’cause he’s all he’s kind of there. At many many ways.

26:21 and and that’s what we want. We want

26:24 Yeah.

26:25 we want a range of people, a a range of experiences so that when new people come, they can see that. You know, that there’s just not one story to the to the healing process. There’s not

26:37 one way out of this is not there’s not like a twelve step programme that you follow, you know. It’s it’s

26:41 Yeah, exactly.

26:42 really, really differ it’s really, really unique for everyone. So I think when people get in

26:46 Yeah.

26:46 that room and they see other people’s journeys and you know, the group’s a very happy place. That’s one of

26:52 Mm.

26:53 the things I like about it. It’s you know, we we have a laugh sometimes. you know, it’s it’s a very warm and accepting place. And I think when you come

27:02 into that and you’re not being judged or questioned or you know, why didn’t you leave sooner? Why blah blah blah, you know, the all those

27:10 Yeah.

27:11 stupid questions you get asked. so I think that gives people hope, you know. really do. Yeah. More than more than anything.

27:16 Yeah, I agree. ‘Cause you yeah, in the group you can

27:20 see people at different stages of their kind of leaving process. Like you say, we’ve got people who have been out for thirty years, we’ve got people who’ve been out for a year, and you get to see I guess all the stages and people who are going through therapy and people, you know, are meeting new partners and you’re seeing their life expand and grow. Yeah.

27:43 yeah, that’s a

27:43 Yeah.

27:44 great answer. Yeah.

27:45 That’s a great thing, isn’t it? Yeah.

27:47 Yeah.

27:47 So I think you know, i the thing is yeah, it’s an essential part of the healing journey meeting meeting others like you and knowing that you’re not alone.

27:56 Yeah.

27:57 and I suppose I suppose that’s why Survivor stories matter like what we’re doing

28:04 Yeah.

28:04 You know,

28:04 having a resource where people who are leaving they can come in and they go, there’s someone from this cult, I’m interested in hearing what their story is.

28:09 Hmm. Yeah.

28:12 that’s similar to mine and then they listen to a few others. I mean, for y for you, Elisa, why d why do you think survivor stories matter?

28:18 I think they’re hugely important. I guess like for me, whenever I’ve been going through a hard time, I used to just like search people’s stories online or get books and read about other people’s stories. A because I don’t feel so alone in my own kind of anguish when I know someone else out s has been through the same thing.

28:41 B because I can learn tips of strategies that worked, that helped people, so that then I can try them as well. C is telling your own story is so empowering. There’s something about speaking it out into the world that enables you to learn new things about your story or gain new perspectives.

29:02 Which, I think has been surprising around the podcast as well. But yeah, I think survival stories, especially in the cult cultural space, is maybe new in the way that we’re doing it, because our focus is on what helped you, not the horrible, disgusting things that happened to you.

29:22 Yeah. Yeah, and I think I think I think that’s somewhat of a relief to a lot of people when when we’re

29:28 Yeah.

29:29 talking about it.

29:30 Yeah. Like we’re survivor focused. Yeah.

29:33 Absolutely.

29:34 Yeah.

29:35 What happens do you think, Joan, when people finally have the opportunity to stell tell their stories? What have you noticed?

29:41 well sometimes it involves tears, you know, and that’s

29:45 Mm, yeah.

29:46 us it’s usually of relief

29:49 Mm.

29:49 or happiness. you know, someone will s you know, be telling their story and the tears will start coming down. and everyone just gives them the space and time

29:59 to to to work through those emotions.

30:03 Yeah.

30:03 And and I think that is such a relief for people. I think that’s the huge things. is that

30:08 Yeah.

30:08 it’s I think a lot of weight is taken off their shoulders. I know that from my own personal experience, you know, w when I first told my story publicly, I broke down and cried.

30:20 in front of a whole crowd of people I didn’t know. And

30:23 but afterwards I felt incredibly light. I felt

30:26 Yeah.

30:27 free. I felt, you know, unburdened in some way.

30:31 Liberations.

30:33 yeah, liberated. So you know, I think w telling survivors telling their story is really important.

30:40 not just for other survivors, just but just for themselves, I think it’s actually part of the healing process. and

30:47 Yeah, I think it can be for sure.

30:50 and I think I think telling the story it’s very empowering. finally they’re being listened to

30:56 you know, whereas in the cult they you couldn’t question anything, you couldn’t really be honest, you couldn’t really be yourself, you had to be this

31:03 Yeah.

31:04 cult identity. So yeah, I think there’s a there’s just a huge amount of relief. and I think it’s important that people listen to their stories. You know, they the survivors want to be heard and and it’s

31:17 Yeah.

31:18 not

31:19 it’s not an intention seeking kind of thing. like I say, it’s part it’s

31:23 Yeah, definitely no. Yeah.

31:25 it’s part like telling your story is part of your process and as you tell your story you get you get better at remembering things. Y and you you sort of when you f start tell f f when you first start telling your story you jump all over the place. And then as you tell your story more and more, you know, you sort of

31:44 gather a timeline of things that happened and what led up to this and ha you know, and you sort of get a better understanding of your own story and what happened.

31:54 Mm.

31:55 and and that is really important and it helps bring up repressed memories. Even if they’re unpleasant, it’s important that you remember them. You know, i I think, you know, there will come a time when

32:08 And I hope that time is sh you know, soon when accountability is gonna be seen in courts for, you

32:14 Yeah.

32:15 know, control and coercion. I think we’re very close to that now. And so those

32:18 Yeah.

32:19 getting those stories right in your head is very important. because,

32:22 Yeah.

32:23 you know, soon soon they’re gonna be told in in courts and and whatnot in i in front of the law.

32:29 Yeah.

32:29 And being confident in telling your story is really important.

32:32 Absolutely, yeah. What responsibilities do we have when people trust us with our stories in terms of the podcast?

32:40 We have so much responsibility. I feel I feel

32:42 Yeah.

32:43 like it I feel like it’s a very a very delicate scenario. we’ve got to be sort of

32:49 Not hand holding but but being being an ally.

32:54 And creating a

32:55 space that feels safe and comfortable. Yeah.

32:57 Exactly. Yeah.

32:59 Yeah. And being being an ally, and just giving them the space to think about things, not hurrying them, not

33:06 Yeah.

33:06 not forcing questions on them, not trying to pull out juicy details. It’s it’s really just to let them tell their story in the most authentic way. And

33:16 Yeah.

33:18 And some sometimes we have to rem like they’ll have told us some stuff outside of the podcast and sometimes we need to remind them, what about that story that you told me? So you know, we we we we have some sort of guardianship over making sure that they you know, they don’t forget things and they they tell the whole story at the at at the right time. So there’s you know, it’s a yeah, it’s

33:39 Yeah.

33:39 a huge it’s a huge responsibility.

33:42 It

33:42 is and I

33:43 like sometimes people will have their story and you can just well I think I can just see in their kind of expression how how intense that was. Not n necessarily intense in a bad way, but it’s kinda like I always offer to give them a call the next day and kind of debrief the conversation and just check in to make sure they’re doing okay ’cause it can be

34:08 I you can feel quite vulnerable after sharing your story, but kind of without

34:12 Mm-hmm.

34:14 yeah, everyone I’ve rang back has like really valued the process of coming on the podcast. I haven’t had any yeah.

34:21 Yeah. Yeah.

34:23 It’s it’s the same with the group, like when we have you know, a a a a heavy session if i if if you want to call it that, it’s maybe, you know, there’s some tears or there’s just some big realizations and you can

34:35 Yeah.

34:36 you can tell that in the room. You know, I always remind people just just to look after themselves for the next couple of days, you know, that stuff might come out.

34:43 Absolutely.

34:44 Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

34:44 you know, stuff might come up, and

34:47 to be especially c so we we get couples quite a lot, you know, who’ve left a

34:52 Hmm.

34:53 cult together and, you know, it they you know, I always say just be kind to each other, you know, you’re both gonna

34:59 Yeah.

35:00 be in a sensitive state. just be gentle and have some compassion, you know.

35:04 Absolutely.

35:06 Yeah, so y yeah, we we have we have a lot of

35:10 We have a duty of care, you know. We have a lot of responsibility,

35:12 For sure.

35:14 yeah.

35:15 So

35:15 I I suppose it’s time to talk to start talking about looking ahead in terms of the podcast.

35:20 Mm yeah.

35:23 after ten episodes, where do you w where do you hope Unspun goes next?

35:29 I think I’d I’m really happy just doing people’s stories, but I’d also like to do some conversation on some maybe more specialized topics. we’ve got one coming up and I think we’re we’ll be discussing interesting things like desire.

35:46 and how that’s kind of squashed in a cult and how you can regain that. yeah, so maybe like looking at things in a bit of a narrower narrow narrower lens. I I find it really difficult to say that

36:00 Yeah we

36:02 word all of a sudden, but yeah.

36:04 Yeah, we had that great session with Doctor Caroline Ansley who came

36:08 Yeah.

36:09 to the group and explained to everyone how the health system works. And there

36:14 Mm.

36:14 was lots of interesting insights into that.

36:18 Absolutely.

36:19 and it’ll be it I think and it was totally focused on recovery and and healing,

36:23 Yeah.

36:24 you know. and I think that might be a good topic to have for an episode is maybe get maybe get her on

36:30 Absolutely.

36:31 and and

36:31 retalk about that session she gave us in the group.

36:33 Yeah. That a yeah, I think that would be awesome.

36:37 Yeah, I think that’d be really cool. I mean, that’s that’s a topic I’m interested to explore is is to talk about health professionals and and recovery.

36:48 Yeah. Yeah, that’d be great. What conversations do you think are still missing or that we haven’t covered yet?

36:54 I I think there’s just so many cults out there. you know, I feel like I’ve I’ve been shocked at the amount of cults that have come along that I’ve never heard of. yeah. I Yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

37:03 Same. And I we’re just ripe for new ones this our world right now. Everyone’s looking for somewhere

37:15 to belong, yeah.

37:16 Yeah, I I I think you know the the conversations that are missing are, you know, other cults that are very quiet and haven’t haven’t really had any sort of plobicity or whatever. I mean, whenever we say cult in New Zealand, the first thing people think about is Gloriavale. And

37:33 Yeah.

37:33 Gloria Vale is not a typical cult, if you like. You know, it’s I mean it’s quite unique as far as cults go in New Zealand. a

37:42 Yes.

37:43 lo cults look a lot different than that. And I think the conversation I think the conversation that’s really missing is is that we need to stop trying to define define cults by

37:56 it’s got a charismatic leader and it’s got this and it’s got that and therefore it’s a cult. And I’m like, Well

38:00 Kind of tick box approach.

38:02 yeah, like I think I think that that’s irrelevant now, and we’ve got this, you know, developing law framework around coercion and control and and that’s I

38:11 Mm-hmm.

38:11 feel that that’s what the com conversation should be about. Is is this group or organization exacting coercion and control? If yes, then

38:19 Right, yeah.

38:20 something needs to be done about it. We don’t have to call it a

38:23 cult we can call it a high degr demand group or whatever, you know, whatever you whatever makes

38:27 Yeah.

38:27 people feel comfortable. But the point is is that we want more people to know, you know, that if they’re in a any sort of group, you know, marketing group, business, family, you know, these these sort of yeah

38:39 Self development, that’s a goodie.

38:42 self self help, wellness, you know,

38:45 Yeah.

38:45 they they they can all be cults.

38:48 Mm.

38:48 And so stop you know, I want people to stop sort of looking around and going, here’s the checkbox, does my does my organization fill in all these tick in all these boxes?

38:59 Mm.

38:59 All you have to say to yourself is is am I being coerced in any way? Am I being are my thoughts being controlled or is my life being controlled? Then you’re

39:07 Yeah.

39:08 you’re most likely in a cult or high demand situation and you

39:12 Yeah.

39:13 deserve to get out of there. So I think

39:15 I think that’s a massive public conversation that needs to be had on a society wide level.

39:21 Absolutely.

39:23 yeah, that’s that’s that’s what I think’s missing.

39:26 Yeah. Well we’re kinda coming to

39:27 Yeah, I mean

39:28 a bit more of a close. Shall we do some

39:30 Yeah.

39:31 rapid fire? I always love the good rapid fire questions.

39:35 Okay. All

39:36 One episode that really stayed with you.

39:38 it’s definitely Rusty’s

39:41 Yeah.

39:43 yeah, I just I he he he felt he’s like I’ve never been asked questions like this before and he really thought about his his answers and his

39:54 Yeah.

39:54 story is so fascinating and he’s a really funny guy. so I really enjoyed that yeah. What about you? What a wha biggest surprise?

39:57 He is, isn’t he? Biggest surprise. mine.

40:04 What about you?

40:05 I don’t I don’t know. Jonas stayed with me because it was just an interesting experience ’cause I saw his comedy show the night before and then we caught up at my house and his story

40:17 Yeah.

40:18 and he got upset about his goats and

40:21 It just really

40:22 That’s right.

40:24 and then we went out for lunch afterwards, so I guess that story really stayed with me. Yeah. What’s your biggest

40:30 Yeah, yeah.

40:31 surprise?

40:32 This is rapid five.

40:32 I don’t know.

40:33 Being rapid.

40:35 Sorry?

40:37 You’re not being rapid.

40:38 Sorry, sorry. I d ca I can’t think of a bigger surprise.

40:40 We’re running out of time. Hurry up.

40:43 What about you? What what was your biggest challenge?

40:46 My biggest challenge has been the technical aspect of running a podcast. That’s hard. Yeah.

40:52 For sure, for sure.

40:54 What’s your favourite moment?

40:55 my favorite moment was probably not from the podcast but from the group when one of the survivors was crying and she said, no, I’m not I’m not crying because I’m upset, I’m crying because I’m happy and and she gave me a big hug and that was really nice.

41:11 Aw, that’s

41:12 lovely.

41:12 What about you? Something you change your mind about?

41:15 what have I changed my mind about? I don’t think I’ve changed my mind about no, I don’t think I’ve changed my mind about anything. Yeah.

41:22 What about

41:23 Yeah.

41:23 one word that describes recovery?

41:25 Fluid. What about for you?

41:26 Okay.

41:29 healing.

41:29 yeah, that’s nice. One thing you’ve learned about yourself.

41:32 the healing’s never over. F for me, it’s feels like it’s gonna last forever. That’s that’s what I learned, yeah. One

41:37 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

41:41 what is one thing you hope listeners take away from this, from our podcast?

41:45 I just hope listeners know they’re not on their own in this journey and there’s resources out there to help and support you. Yeah.

41:56 one of one of the things we ask our podcasters, our our interviewees at the end is, you know, if you could say something to your former self just after you’d come out, what would you say? And the answers are very similar, you know. and and one of them is be kind be hanging out,

42:06 Yeah. Aren’t they? Yeah. You got this. Hang in there. You’re doing an amazing job.

42:14 you you’ve got this

42:16 But I think one of the ones

42:16 Back yourself.

42:17 is be be kind to yourself. and I think

42:19 Yeah, be compassionate.

42:21 I think that was yeah, I think that’s really important. Yeah. I mean I mean looking back over these first ten episodes, one thing that’s become really clear is that recovery doesn’t follow a straight line. It’s messy,

42:34 Yeah.

42:35 deeply personal and different for everyone.

42:37 Yeah. But there’s if there’s one thing our all of our guests have shown us is that healing’s possible. Not because life becomes perfect, but because people slowly begin to reconnect with themselves. And they’re building meaningful relationships and they create lives that feel authentic to them.

42:57 Yeah. Yeah. We also we also should say a big thank you to everyone who’s listened, shared an episode episode, left a review or trusted enough to tell your story. this podcast exists because of you and I would also say thank you to Decult for being incredibly supportive.

43:15 for all of their

43:16 amazing support. We love you, D. Colt.

43:18 Yeah, really grateful for that. Yeah.

43:21 You’re our inspiration, for sure. Yeah, and I guess we’re really excited about what’s coming next. We’re gonna continue to bring survivor stories, conversations with different people about different aspects of recovery.

43:35 identity relationships, coercive control, and what it really means to reclaim your life. yeah. If today’s conversation has resonated with you, we’d love you to follow Unspun on this channel and on the podcast platforms.

43:51 Leaving us a review would be amazing. I don’t know if we’ve got one yet, but we’d love to have one, especially a good one. Share this podcast

43:59 Yeah.

44:00 with someone who might need to hear these stories. thanks for joining us. Yeah, until next time. Keep

44:07 Keep

44:07 asking the questions.

44:08 Keep untangling the threads.

44:10 And keep finding your way back to yourself.

44:12 Bye for now.

44:13 Bye.

44:13 Bye.