Episode 012 — Zara Murphy

00:41 Welcome to another episode of Unspun, where we unravel the stories of cult recovery, examine how people recover and focus on thriving. Today we have another escapee of Jehovah and her name is Sara. Welcome Zara. It’s great to have you here.

00:58 Thank you for having me on. I’m excited.

01:00 Yeah, it is. I’m excited too.

01:02 All right.

01:03 Zara’s a former Jehovah’s Witness who is based in Omuru, New Zealand. She now uses her lived experience to speak out about the harm caused by high control religion and to support others finding their way out. She works as a helpline agent with recovering from religion.

01:22 Where she supports people reclaiming their autonomy, identity, and critical thinking after leaving restrictive belief systems. Zara is a proud queer woman and a vocal advocate for LGBTQIA plus and human rights. She’s driven by a commitment to challenge systems and that silence, control, and exclude. And at the center of it all,

01:49 She’s a mum with two teenagers, amazing. Raising them with the freedom she fought hard to claim. So great to have you here.

01:58 Thank you. It’s an honour to be here.

02:01 Yeah. and I guess we’ll just have a bit of a conversation about your journey to how you’ve got t to where you are today.

02:11 Yeah.

02:11 And I guess it’s quite good to start with a bit of an understanding of the cult that you were born into. well you were born into it, weren’t you? Were you? More or less. Yeah.

02:22 Yes, I was. Yeah,

02:24 I guess I I’m kind of second generation, if you want to call it that. since

02:28 Yeah, yeah.

02:29 I was raised, there was

02:31 Yeah.

02:32 myself and my sister. And actually as a child we moved around a lot, so I’ve actually associated with a lot of different congregations around New Zealand. And

02:42 Right. Yeah.

02:44 about age eleven my dad left who had never been a believer.

02:49 And I felt that about that time our belief system, our what had previously been, you know, our faith and our religion really became everything and it underpinned

03:01 Rocks.

03:02 every aspect of our lives, which, you know, for a a child at such a transitional age that created its own challenges because it became so conformist. And

03:13 Right.

03:14 there was this

03:15 increasing expectation as I’m getting older that I would take steps to dedicate my life to God.

03:22 Yeah.

03:23 And there’s this very pervasive sense of pressure that exists in attaining that next level as it as a you should be, without that being said. It’s implied. So I was publicly baptized at 17.

03:40 Rise.

03:40 still living at home. Soon

03:42 Mm.

03:42 after that I entered into full-time preaching service, attended training for that, and I devoted much of my time to being out in the preaching work.

03:53 Rise. Yeah.

03:54 But but after experiencing a sexual assault by an older female in the organization, being forced to conceal that

04:04 Wow.

04:04 I found

04:04 I became very disillusioned and I really

04:06 Right.

04:07 began seeking a social life outside of the organization. And it

04:11 Yeah.

04:12 was about this time that I met my now husband.

04:15 But due to my having ongoing contact with him and I guess engaging in behavior that was outside of what was considered acceptable.

04:25 and having associates who would deem to be, you know, questionable individuals, I was required

04:30 With a worldly

04:32 worldly, that’s you know it, you’ve got the termly.

04:34 Yeah.

04:36 that word they love to use. If you Yeah, if you’re not in, you’re out.

04:38 yes, we can’t have worldly people in our lives. Yeah.

04:43 So as you’ll know and as has been the case for many others before me,

04:49 I was required to engage in a very lengthy disciplinary process.

04:53 yes.

04:55 So during these meetings, you know, you’re facing an all-male panel. They pry

05:00 it’s

05:01 into the most intimate of matters. It doesn’t matter if they’re specifically even relevant to your wrongdoing.

05:10 any hint of impropriety and they are explicitly questioning your participation in sexual acts, what you were wearing, did you invite or entice attention? And I was nineteen, a relatively sheltered nineteen year old. And I just

05:26 It’s incredible, isn’t that?

05:28 yeah, I just I felt utterly scraped, you know, scraped out inside. And it’s

05:34 Really violated a hype

05:37 and yeah.

05:37 Hugely

05:38 violating but you don’t recognise it as being that because it’s just

05:43 Rise.

05:43 the right thing. It’s just part of the process. You have to engage if there’s any

05:48 I’ve heard so many

05:49 women talk about these disciplinary hearings and without fail every one of them have said they ask really explicit questions and I’m like, are they do they learn this? Is this a form of voyeurism or something?

06:05 It definitely feels that way because

06:07 Mm.

06:09 any opportunity that they can get a leg in basically in in that vein of questioning, they’ll take it.

06:19 Yeah.

06:20 they they will what I found is take it to to whatever level they can before you

06:28 Well, I remember becoming clearly uncomfortable with the nature of the questions and actually not sure how to answer them when I’m I’m being faced with having to answer questions about giving and receiving oral sex when that that wasn’t even, you know, on the agenda. That wasn’t even the point of my being in the meeting. And so you, you know, a program to

06:52 Do the right thing and answer

06:54 Yeah.

06:54 thinking you don’t have a choice.

06:57 Yeah.

06:58 So violated, violating, it it is absolutely the right way. I re you just feel

07:00 Mm. I liked your word scraped as well. I think that’s really Yeah.

07:07 because you’ve never experienced that before. So that you know, that led to me being reproved, which you know is essentially being put on public notice. It’s people are notified that you’re not.

07:18 a a safe contact.

07:21 Right.

07:22 and things escalated from there and I did become disfellowshipped or shunned.

07:27 Right.

07:28 And I remember their parting words to me were that you know I did and again a 19 year old girl, I’m getting up to leave. My life as I know it is over. They said that you’re not you’re no longer one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but you’re not part of the world. You are

07:44 Fellowshipped person. And so you were

07:46 Wow.

07:46 kind of branded. Well, I felt, and I I left, and I just yeah, I was a wreck. And

07:54 I

07:54 you know, that led to me swiftly having to leave home and the job I had.

07:57 Wow. Yeah.

07:59 And I had nothing except a suitcase and a a few personal items. There are things from my childhood that have been dis destroyed. They’ve been lost. I’ve I’ll never see them again because

08:10 Wow.

08:10 to my family I became nothing. I didn’t exist.

08:13 Yeah.

08:14 so after that I found that my h I I became very sick, which was, you know

08:20 a hugely uncomfortable thing to be dealing with in a strange situation. So I

08:25 Yeah.

08:25 I moved to where I did have some family support. But I think what what started bringing me back was I found out I was expecting my first child and I just

08:37 became gripped with panic that he was gonna die at Armageddon due to my poor

08:40 Right.

08:43 choices. And I was

08:45 you know, isolated, I was estranged from everybody I loved and needed the most at

08:52 Yeah.

08:52 that time, you know, as a a new first-time expectant mother. And I was terrified and felt that I

08:59 I guess.

09:00 yeah, I had no choice but to get married,

09:01 Yeah.

09:02 make my way back. And it took it’s crazy when I think about it, it took months of catching buses across Wellington with a brand new baby.

09:11 Yeah.

09:12 Walking to attend these meetings alone, where I knew no one, where I wasn’t allowed to speak to anyone, where I had to worship in silence, and it took

09:23 Yeah.

09:23 months and months before I was reinstated. And

09:27 Wow.

09:28 since then I’ve been active on and off until my early 30s, and here we are today.

09:34 Wow. Wow. So it was quite

09:37 a protracted kind of process for you. Yeah.

09:42 It really

09:42 was, yeah.

09:43 just ask a a few questions for people who don’t know that much about Jehovah’s Witness, or J Dubs as we like to call them. who had the power in in your group or yeah, I think it’s pretty much the same all over, but yeah.

09:59 actually hearing you ask that makes me quite emotional because this is

10:02 Yeah.

10:03 this is a an area that feeds into I guess something that’s really prompted me to to want to speak out as you captured at the outset. So

10:12 Yeah.

10:13 it will come as no surprise that, you know, men hold all the power and

10:18 Yeah.

10:19 they hold it directly within the congregation.

10:22 through that hierarchy, but also indirectly through the greater, the the governing body, which is sort of the

10:27 Right.

10:28 based in America international body that

10:31 Yeah.

10:32 determine everything. And I found it really interesting when I looked at the stats that women make up 70% of cult members. So

10:41 Wow.

10:42 th the issue for me is that in the organization you’ve got these men that hold all the power.

10:49 And you might think, okay, well that that makes sense. Men are in charge. But actually it’s it it’s so much more than that because women don’t have a role or an identity beyond existing as a compliment to their mate, remaining compliant,

11:05 Right.

11:06 obedient, no voice.

11:08 And I was taught that scripturally as a female, I always came

11:12 Yeah.

11:12 below a man. So that’s what I’m being taught as I’m growing up as a female. And I had

11:17 Wow.

11:17 to consider the feelings of men in all all areas of my dress and grooming. So it was my responsibility. Was my top too low cut? Was my skirt too short? If I bent over, what could they say? I’m you know, I was constantly in this state of

11:33 who might I offend by my attire. And I was also raised

11:36 Wow. Yeah.

11:37 to believe that the most valuable thing I had to offer was my virginity. Which is

11:43 Yeah.

11:44 just it it sounds so outdated. It’s such an outdated concept. They have obviously still having to wear a head covering if you’re teaching in front of a male, and still very much perpetuating that arrangement of headship, whether

11:59 Man is is the head of of the woman of the household.

12:02 Right.

12:03 Even recently a comment was made to my daughter, you know, wh she was helping out clear up a table, which she does. I mean the kids are are are excellent at being helpful, but

12:14 Yeah.

12:14 the comment was, Wow, you’re so helpful, what a great wife you’ll make. And

12:18 Yeah.

12:20 so it highlights there that it’s unthinkable.

12:22 that a woman would be valuable in independence or valuable for her own talents and accomplishments. No, it’s unthinkable. That’s a goal. That’s

12:29 Anything else but being a wife, producing a good set of children

12:35 a goal to aspire to. And yeah.

12:37 It was it is in

12:39 so many cults it wasn’t mine, yeah.

12:42 I it’s

12:42 just it’s normal. It’s it’s

12:45 Yeah.

12:45 you know, it’s the norm. And interestingly,

12:47 It does.

12:48 my husband has never been a believer, but his word held more value than mine because he’s a a man. Domestic

12:57 Yeah.

12:58 violence is very common and the direction there is to continue being a devoted and dutiful wife and to reflect upon what you might have done to cause him to act that way.

13:09 Provoke it.

13:10 Yeah, to like what have you done that that’s

13:13 Mm.

13:13 prompted him to act that way?

13:15 Yeah.

13:16 I think people would be surprised to know how toxic female relationships can be in terms of social relationships. There’s a kind of a an unspoken hierarchy, especially if a a woman is married to a man that has a position in the congregation, you know, like the other

13:35 benchmark or standard that you should be

13:37 Right.

13:38 trying to meet. And

13:40 you know, I experienced a a terrible period where I was ostracized and bullied through social media. This is from people knowing for their love and care of others due to the contraception I’d chosen to use.

13:55 Wow.

13:56 So it what I’m highlighting with these comments is is just how outdated

14:01 and how how back and affected women are. There’s no bodily autonomy and

14:07 And it it’s hard I guess with the

14:08 And

14:10 and it sounds like i the woman’s status is attached to the man’s as well. So if your man has a higher position then you then that’s how you’re ascribed status. Is that right?

14:22 That

14:22 is a really great way to put it. And you’re absolutely right. And you

14:24 Yeah. Mm.

14:26 can’t really think of any other scenario outside of these cultic settings where yeah,

14:32 Where that would be the case, yeah.

14:34 where you you would every choice and decision is influenced by someone else. And it reminds me of a quote that I really like, that coercive people don’t need a woman to feel nothing.

14:47 They need her to distrust what she feels. So

14:51 Yes.

14:52 I raise that because the indoctrination really overrides any critical thinking and it forces

14:57 Yeah.

14:58 conformity by pairing repetition with emotional manipulation. So

15:05 Yeah.

15:06 females, women become dependent on authority or the male. So they foster an environment where

15:15 you you’re left with no other choice. And what I really found too, which has been one of the biggest things to overcome and recognize, is that the gut feeling that we all have, but that is so innate within us as females, is overridden at every turn.

15:33 Absolutely.

15:34 And so you are actually going against what’s biologically present within you, which

15:40 Yeah.

15:40 which is crazy.

15:42 Yeah, all your kind of mechanisms for decision making and your wisdom, your knowing, your everything is swapped out and replaced with the doctrine, essentially.

15:55 I really,

15:56 really like the way you’ve put that. Your mechanisms

15:58 Yeah.

15:59 have been replaced by the doctrine. Absolutely. And any

16:01 Yeah. Yeah.

16:03 space that you allow it will fill.

16:06 Absolutely.

16:07 Yeah. And it’s so dangerous, especially for women.

16:11 It is. It does.

16:11 because

16:12 you don’t know how to ever say no to anything. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

16:15 ‘Cause that’s not an option. It’s literally not an option. Yeah.

16:20 Yeah. so what were your first memories? Can do you have any? Of maybe cult experiences or?

16:28 Yeah, something that sticks out is I always, even from a very young age, struggled with feeling like there was a lot of hypocrisy.

16:37 Right.

16:38 And that that’s really hard to reconcile, especially as a young person when you’re just when you’re learning and it’s all it’s the rules and yet you’re you’re witnessing things that don’t make sense and don’t add up. And

16:52 Everything is supposed to be centered around love, but one plus one didn’t equal two. So again, if something fell off or uncomfortable or not right, I was having to put that aside in honor of maintaining the feelings of someone else. Otherwise, I

17:08 Right nice.

17:08 was imbuing bad motives on them.

17:11 Yeah.

17:12 So

17:13 Yeah, as far going along with that, as far back as I can remember, I I carried a very heavy emotional load. And I think that’s unavoidable. And I think a lot again, a lot of women, but a lot of people within the organisation do carry this

17:29 this pressure and as I got

17:30 Yeah.

17:31 older it became self-doubt and inadequacy and that’s reinforced from the platform under the guise of it being reminders or encouragement. You know, it’s you’re not good enough, you’re not doing enough, are you considering others? How can you improve? So I I felt a lot of confusion

17:52 Yeah.

17:52 in my time.

17:53 Yeah,

17:53 Yeah.

17:53 and I think when you’re confused you’re so much easier e it’s so much easier to be manipulated because you’re like I mean in a state of confusion you’re wanting direction. So the more that you can be confused, the easier you are to be controlled in in many ways. I think. I don’t know. Yeah. Yeah.

18:14 Yeah.

18:14 Because the confusion becomes doubt and there’s no room for doubt. So again they will fill that with that manipulation, but that feeling of do more, do better, work harder.

18:27 Yeah.

18:28 Yeah. Produce more.

18:30 Yes.

18:30 How are treat sorry, how are children treated in the cult?

18:34 Well, I think it’s important to note, going right back to how children are made, that the whole concept of sex is with procreation in mind. So

18:44 Right.

18:44 again, we’ve talked about that ideal being a man and a woman and getting married and well, unless you’re devoting your life and service, the next step is have a baby. So

18:58 Yeah.

18:58 they are viewed as precious. I mean there is a strong

19:01 view in the Bible about raising your children and how they are a gift. And I I I do really like that idea. They are they are special

19:09 Yeah, I yeah.

19:11 and they should be treasured. But they’re also what I would consider they become a tool. So from a very young age the direction is to inculcate or ingrain

19:23 Within them, you should be taking every opportunity. There should be no time where you’re not using the occasion to teach them something scriptural.

19:31 Right. Yeah.

19:33 And then you have the instance where you know they get to a certain age, and anything they do, any any kind of negative behaviour reflects poorly on the parent. So it’s this,

19:44 Right.

19:45 and to the point where it will affect the position of a mayor might hold.

19:49 In the congregation, if his child is, you know, going through even usual teenage ups and downs. If you can’t

19:57 Yeah.

19:57 control your household, you can’t control the congregation. And

20:02 Wow, yeah.

20:03 something else I think that creates that burden for children and kind of highlights that learn, learn, you must be teaching is that.

20:12 Children are really encouraged to set themselves apart as different in school and work environments, but particularly

20:18 Right.

20:19 at school. And so there’s the direction is actually stand out, make a point of drawing attention to yourself as different. Stand up, attract.

20:31 attention in in the most negative way. I mean if you think about a a child at school at high school having to when all they want to do is fit in, no, that’s actually not available to you. You must always be taking a stand.

20:48 Wow.

20:49 Yeah, it’s a it’s a lot of pressure.

20:51 That is,

20:52 yeah.

20:52 And

20:53 it creates a lot of conflict. And I I truly think that that’s probably where the anxiety starts for most of us.

21:01 Absolutely, yeah. That’s terrifying. Yeah. What happened if someone doubted or pushed back?

21:08 Well, to be honest, Lisa, that really all depends on who you were. Who your

21:12 Right, okay.

21:13 family was. But as I mentioned, there’s no

21:16 Obviously

21:17 you you had that scenario. What if it was a young man or any other situations that you know?

21:24 You know what? It

21:25 is so subject to change. It depends on who you get as your panel. It depends on who

21:32 Right.

21:32 your family are. You know, because the whole premise of it is that they determining your heart condition. Are you sorry?

21:38 Right.

21:38 Are you repentant? So when you think of you know who we are as as imperfect humans and and and some people

21:46 possess more empathy. Some men are parents, some are not, some have been through it, some haven’t. And so you’ve got this panel and it’s just it’s a coint house as to who you might end up in front of.

22:00 Right.

22:01 But there there are, in answer to your question, there are no room for doubts at all.

22:05 Yeah.

22:06 You’re you’re you’re labelled as weak. I mean there’s this constant you’re either strong or you’re not.

22:12 Rise.

22:12 And if

22:12 if you think about again who we are as human beings, that’s that’s just not how we operate. We don’t get up

22:19 Yeah.

22:19 in the morning and think I’m good or I’m bad. There isn’t strong and weak as human like it’s a spectrum and

22:26 Yeah.

22:27 that we rely on others also to help us in that, but not here. Not here you’re solely accountable. And

22:34 Yeah, I loved

22:35 I love what you said before about it depends on who you are, depends on the

22:39 What

22:40 panel, and that reminds me of how it was in my cult as well. Like if you were if came from a good family or what was considered a good family, then maybe you would be treated differently if something was going wrong. It’s so nuanced.

22:56 There’s no yeah, it’s really tricky to explain, but I think you said that really well.

23:03 I I absolutely agree and I it’s surprising

23:05 Mm.

23:05 for me to hear that it’s also happened for you as well because it

23:09 yeah.

23:11 feels so so bizarre.

23:13 Yeah, definitely.

23:15 because it’s so arbitrary and it

23:17 Yeah.

23:18 it’s nuanced like you say, but there

23:20 Yeah.

23:20 isn’t. There is there isn’t actually a guidepost. There is, but there isn’t.

23:26 Yeah. They

23:27 can be kind of manipulated I guess, depending on who’s who’s who. Yeah.

23:31 Absolutely. And I can’t

23:34 tell you that the doubt that that actually creates within the congregation. It it is

23:39 Yeah.

23:40 it is confusing. Again, there’s that word of being confused, but also not being allowed to question that. You just

23:47 Yeah.

23:48 just push that down, suppress

23:50 Yeah.

23:50 that and get on board.

23:52 Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

23:54 What did it feel like for you? ‘Cause you were obviously kind of quite cognizant of the hypocrisy and things from quite an early age. What was it like for you to carry that doubt inside a world where doubt was kind of dangerous really?

24:10 It’s it’s very draining. It’s

24:13 Yeah.

24:13 very draining. It’s isolating because of what I was starting to say, especially towards the end, and and when you give yourself permission to s to actually

24:23 give attention to those questions, I suppose. I actually started to feel like I was going a little bit crazy. And

24:31 Yeah.

24:31 I started to feel a little bit suspicious about things. Because you go through this very private internal process of firstly, you know, I’m having these thoughts. Okay, I’m gonna have them. Okay. But I shouldn’t be having them. But what do these mean? I can’t ignore that.

24:50 But nobody else is concerned. But I am. And it starts to become

24:54 Yeah.

24:54 more and more real until it takes hold and you just you can’t ignore it. But it’s it’s not nice, it’s uncomfortable, and it is dangerous. It

25:03 Yeah.

25:03 really is, because you can’t share it. You

25:07 Yeah.

25:07 can’t share it, you can’t trust anybody.

25:10 Yeah.

25:11 It’s just you are just in such isolation.

25:15 Right. Did you try to silence the questions? How did you deal with it?

25:20 I’m not a silent person, Alisa. I

25:24 Neither was I.

25:26 I was really fortunate to have an unbelieving mate, like an unbelieving husband who wasn’t influenced h either.

25:33 Right.

25:34 And I had a it was safe for me to start having those conversations at home. And it would go like

25:40 With her.

25:41 I you know, I would kind of pop out to the lounge and say, but what about what about when

25:47 And I’d I’d process it out loud and he would just listen. He didn’t there was no because he knew that it was a it was a process I needed to go through. Generally

25:56 Wow, that’s so wonderful.

25:58 he would say, Yeah. Like, yeah, you’re starting to wake up.

26:03 Yeah.

26:03 So there I don’t think I think once it started to build it was always gonna bubble out. But I I was

26:09 Yeah.

26:10 fortunate to have a safe person.

26:12 Yeah.

26:12 Yeah.

26:13 What was the moment or the event that made you understand you couldn’t keep living inside the J Dub world?

26:22 Well it was it’s a very clear event. I it’s it’s a ver it’s a pivotal event for me.

26:29 Right. Yeah.

26:32 so we had moved to the South Island, big family move, and initially I felt it was important to engage with the local congregation. Call me crazy.

26:44 Yeah.

26:45 and it it was quite a short time after that that I found out there was a convicted pedophile and his wife, like quite a a widely known pedophile that belonged to the congregation. his wife had also been involved in concealing his crimes. And this just feels so bizarre even sharing

27:05 Wow.

27:05 that this is this is reality. And, you know, it made my skin crawl.

27:10 I be

27:10 As as

27:11 it would for anybody I imagine. And I it got to the point I’ve got two one not quite teenage daughter and a teenage son. And I really got to the point I just I didn’t want them even participating, answering up, having parts on the platform because I wanted to protect them and not draw attention to them. This is how I’m feeling as I’m

27:32 Yeah. Mm.

27:35 you know, attending these meetings. But I really began searching my heart. so I you know, I’m thinking in a principled and moral normal way, it actually isn’t okay that

27:46 Yeah.

27:46 he’s done what he’s done and and my feelings are normal and valid. And so I sought out a friend in the congregation who I I thought I could trust, but her response to me was, well he served us time.

28:00 We have to forgive him. He’s repentant. You know, as in it’s not

28:03 Right.

28:04 for us to say, it’s not for us to have an opinion on. He’s

28:07 To judge.

28:08 been through his process.

28:10 Mm.

28:11 But my again at the time my daughter was the age of his victim. She was his victim.

28:16 right.

28:18 So how how was I supposed to feel? I I I truly

28:21 Hello.

28:21 did not feel accepting of him.

28:25 Yeah.

28:26 And so

28:26 I stopped attending. And after several months I was called to a meeting with the traveling overseer who makes his way around. He he looks after an area and a local elder. which again here I am, a married woman, but being faced with having to talk with two men, they wouldn’t come to my home. They wouldn’t allow me to bring my husband.

28:50 Wow.

28:51 and

28:51 I had to attend the the Kingdom Hall or the the church building. And it was very strange. It you know, they do usually follow a format. They’ll open with a prayer. You know, there’s a there there’s niceties to the uncomfortable situation. There is

29:08 Structure.

29:10 none of that. So I’m already feeling

29:12 This isn’t this isn’t right. This isn’t and I’m feeling very defensive because I’ve resolved that I’m gonna, I’m gonna be honest, I’m gonna speak my truth because this is safe, you know, this is a safe place. I they want

29:26 Yeah.

29:27 me to share, they wanna help me, they wanna fix me, they wanna bring me back into the fold. But I spoke about my concerns.

29:35 I asked why I wasn’t being made aware of the danger, as that is something that they say is a requirement that parents will be told. I, you

29:45 really? Wow. Okay.

29:47 know, I’m saying, why wasn’t I being made aware of the danger? Why why weren’t parents being informed I wasn’t the only parent? And what did they expect me to do? You know, I put that question to them. Like, how am I supposed to feel as a mum?

30:00 Yeah.

30:01 And I I was

30:02 attacked verbally, strips torn. It was it was horrible. And I

30:07 Wow.

30:08 I thought, no, you know, that there was that part of me that thought, this I have to take this. And I actually asked, you know, please stop, please stop. But where they landed was that

30:20 actually it told this in no uncertain terms I’m worse than a than a pedophile don’t be concerned with

30:27 Mm-hmm.

30:27 a paedophile because I’ve lost my faith and he’s sorry and he is welcomed and I’m bad

30:36 Wow.

30:36 and

30:37 They just continued. It was just this barrage of

30:40 Wow.

30:41 of why also questioning you why was I make why was I being contentious? And I

30:47 Why were you even questioning it?

30:50 exactly. Why why he’s sorry.

30:51 We’ve got it on hand, you silly woman.

30:54 He’s sorry. And

30:56 Wow.

30:57 I’ve lost my faith and I need to focus on like forget about him. You need to get yourself in line.

31:02 And I I I began to spin, my head began spinning and I got up and I walked out. And I don’t know if I’ve ever cried like I I got in my car and I just

31:13 Bald is all I can call it. You know,

31:15 Yeah.

31:16 everything came out

31:18 Yeah.

31:18 because how how could this be so wrong? Like But on top of it all, later that day I get a message from the elder who’d been there.

31:29 saying that he was sorry for how that ended, but I’d like to ask you do you take your children to the grocery store? Because you know those sorts of people are everywhere, something to think about.

31:42 And I I I I think I threw my phone and that that

31:46 Wow.

31:47 was the end of that because I can honestly say Alisa that

31:50 Every congregation I have been in, there has been some sort of maybe not a pedophile, but some sort of sex offender, predator,

31:59 Right.

32:00 unsafe person, and the science says that isn’t something that just goes away. And

32:05 And it’s not

32:07 it’s not coincidence.

32:08 It isn’t. And and not

32:09 Yeah.

32:10 when that whole scenario is evidence of if you say you’re sorry, you are welcomed back.

32:17 Yeah, yeah. Wow, it’s so amazing that you went in there and questioned them in the first place, you know?

32:24 I don’t know why I did, but again, like I said,

32:26 Wow.

32:27 I can’t be silenced.

32:29 Yeah. I mean, that’s a pretty powerful thing to do. Yeah.

32:34 Thank you.

32:35 I guess, yeah, I mean I could spend hours talking about all of this.

32:39 I

32:40 But it’d be great to kind of move on a bit with the the deconstruction or

32:45 Yeah.

32:46 yeah

32:46 When was or was there a moment when you stopped saying it as just your personal struggle and started recognizing that it was a coercive system, a cultic system that you were a part of and you wanted to do something about that?

33:01 Look, I I think for me both things are true. I think I had a personal struggle as a result of the system imposed upon me. I d I don’t mean that as a victim, but I think it’s a consequence of the coercive control.

33:16 I hold no there’s no space for blame in staying as long as I did. I think everybody has their time and their journey to to go through and I I recognise that f for some listeners and also others I’ve shared my story with, it it is hard to reconcile. You know, why would you stay? Why did you go back? But

33:37 until you’ve been in it, stuck in it and and under that coercive control, you just can’t possibly understand.

33:45 it’s the hardest thing you could ever do. I mean, you were shunned, which is even harder, you know, you lose your whole world at one kind of meeting. Exactly.

33:56 One foul story. Yeah.

33:58 Yeah.

33:59 It’s a it’s just a clean cut and there’s no there’s there’s I guess i in a court if you are charged with something in most circumstances you actually have an opportunity at a later stage to be able to challenge those charges and you have

34:16 Yeah.

34:16 someone acting for you and defending you

34:20 Yeah.

34:21 y in the in this setting in the organisation.

34:25 you are out on an island alone and

34:27 Yeah.

34:28 you have no recourse at

34:31 Yeah.

34:31 Yeah, it’s full on.

34:32 What what did you find the hardest when you first left in terms of being in the worldly world?

34:40 I think that the first hardest thing for me was that was, as you mentioned, you know, you you go on a deconstruction journey, but actually realizing that leaving wasn’t it.

34:51 Yeah.

34:52 So you leave, but there’s still a whole lot more to come. There’s still a whole lot of work to do. And whilst

34:57 Yeah. Yeah.

35:01 the l the act of leaving is liberating and y you do have a deep breath, that sigh of relief, it was so felt so insurmountable when I realised what I still had a ahead of me. And

35:15 Yeah.

35:15 it just it almost felt like blow after blow after blow in terms of what I had

35:19 Yeah.

35:20 to deconstruct, as well as having two young people to support. Yeah,

35:25 Yeah.

35:26 I so I think

35:28 I think that and also what I had to unlearn, you know,

35:30 Yeah.

35:31 I had to give myself permission to just be. trusting myself was the most challenging, it still is.

35:39 Yeah.

35:40 Understanding I wasn’t beholden to anyone, I wasn’t in trouble, no one was going to tell on me. But actually, along with

35:48 That learning about having to deconstruct it was a comment somebody else had made about how, as Jehovah’s Witnesses, we’re actually raised, we’re taught and live as though we are immortal. And

36:03 Yeah.

36:04 have to learn how to live as mortal. And that even those words sound bizarre to say, this is real life.

36:13 But that is the reality. It there Yeah.

36:15 Yeah, I I

36:17 yeah, because we didn’t have that end of times kind of thing. And I just think I’d love to do a whole episode on that aspect alone because I think that’s a whole different mindset that you’re raised with. and there’s a lot I think that’s inside that mindset in terms of well I’m gonna live to get I’m gonna live forever in the kingdom of

36:40 greatness and yeah. So for you it was knowing that you were a mortal.

36:45 Yes, that that there is an end day. That th like that this is it. Like this is right now there isn’t

36:52 something cut there isn’t a a pending ac activity that’s going to happen because you live in that state. Gotta be ready.

36:59 Right.

37:00 Any any time all the time Armageddon is coming like a thief in the night today. And I

37:06 Right. So it’s a a

37:08 a real sense of urgency to get everything done. Right.

37:12 constant. Be

37:14 be ready. So I I guess there’s also almost a morning that goes along with that because it’s a whole self adjustment in how you live. And like you say, you could spend a whole episode probably unpacking that.

37:28 I’d yeah, I’d really like to a at some stage, definitely. Yeah. Yeah, so there yeah, you’re in a constant state of having to be ready and a a sense of urgency I imagine. Which a

37:40 Yeah.

37:41 actually adds a whole new layer of pressure on top of everything else. Yeah.

37:46 You’re living

37:47 on high on high alert. And are you doing

37:49 Yeah, the whole time.

37:50 enough? And have you proven yourself

37:53 Mm.

37:54 just this constant turmoil and anguish of

37:57 Yeah.

37:58 am I enough?

37:59 Yeah. Yeah.

38:00 Yeah, it’s amazing, isn’t it? What do you think, what do you think helped start you in the direction of building your own life? A life that felt like yours?

38:10 A life that felt like mine. I I think time, I think they’re just like time has just had to pass.

38:19 Yeah.

38:20 I honestly had to learn who who I was, what did

38:23 Yeah.

38:24 I like, what did I enjoy, what kind of person was I? Because when you leave, the assumption is you become a terrible person.

38:34 that that

38:34 Yeah.

38:35 so you’re like I said, you’re either in or you’re out and if you’re out, you’re back.

38:38 Are you an apostate

38:39 in the J Dubs? Do they call you an apostate? Yeah.

38:42 I think that they probably would. I don’t consider

38:45 myself because I that’s just not something I but they would. Absolutely.

38:50 Yeah.

38:51 Absolutely they would. And they would happily label that me that. And that helps them sleep because

38:55 Mm. Yes.

38:58 That’s how they make sense of things.

39:00 Well, y

39:00 if you’re an apostate you’re no longer human, so You don’t have to have empathy with them. Yeah. It’s horrendous.

39:04 No. And there no, because I’m nothing. Yeah. So there there’s very much

39:12 been a a reclamation of self and living authentically with a clear identity of who I am and really fully

39:20 Yeah.

39:21 embracing that.

39:22 Yeah. What were the things that helped you to find your identity?

39:27 I I would say again that safety I had at home

39:32 Rise.

39:33 actually the support from my my children as well and and

39:35 That’s wow, yeah.

39:37 it kind of having some allies on the journey, you know, a a support

39:41 Right.

39:42 party.

39:43 I think I attended De COLT quite soon

39:46 Right.

39:47 after all this had occurred. And that that was

39:49 Wow.

39:50 huge for me. It was

39:52 Yeah.

39:53 transformational, it was confronting, but very connective. But for me it cemented I was right where I was supposed to be. Yeah.

40:01 Yeah, I found that too. Yeah.

40:04 So speaking out, talking about my experience.

40:08 I I think well I like to think that maybe I challenge the idea that survivors look a certain way, are a certain type of person. I’ve had people comment you don’t look like somebody who would have been in a cult because you know they associate it with a particular kind of

40:27 Yeah.

40:29 and

40:30 Hi.

40:31 yeah, yeah, which isn’t the case at all.

40:34 No. Some of the most intelligent people I’ve met.

40:38 Mm.

40:38 Well educated, technically brilliant, yeah,

40:40 Yes, they target them. Yeah.

40:44 it doesn’t discriminate.

40:46 It doesn’t not not at all. Yeah. And I think

40:47 Poor or rich. In fact they Yeah.

40:52 that you know, that’s another reason I I’m vocal is to combat that self blame and that stigma that can exist because no,

41:01 Yeah.

41:02 we don’t all look the same, we don’t all wear a funny set of clothes. No, I no my husband was not in wearer a normal

41:11 Kiwi family mostly. So

41:14 Yeah, yeah.

41:16 I think it helps break down some of the barriers that may exist for

41:21 Yeah.

41:22 for people in in getting support. Yeah.

41:25 think so too and I’m that’s a big part of the reason we’re doing this podcast is that let’s share the voices, let’s hear the voices.

41:33 Yes.

41:34 The more voices that speak out and are heard, the less discrimination or the less lonely you might feel if you are leaving a coercive spiritual group or

41:47 even, you know, a coercive church, which there are a lot of, you know, it doesn’t necessarily have to be a cult, but I think it’s so lonely without other people’s voices or experiences that can be heard. Yeah. Yeah.

42:02 It is. Yeah,

42:03 it is.

42:04 what would be what’s something that you would we’re kind of getting to wind up time, which is

42:11 Mm.

42:11 a shame because I’d love to keep talking for ages.

42:14 maybe we’ll have to get you back.

42:16 yeah. but what would you is there a practice that you do that helps you on a daily basis to kind of deal with cult think?

42:26 I mean aside from all of those, I don’t want to say cliche, but those t accessible tools, you know, your mindfulness, your

42:35 Yeah.

42:36 d breathing, the self-soothing exercises, I think

42:41 Yeah.

42:42 what’s really become part of my own healing journey, which wouldn’t be for everyone, is you know, religion has no place in in my life. But

42:51 I have found that spirituality does in many different forms. So

42:54 Right. Great.

42:56 I I use that as it it fills that space in my life.

43:01 Yeah.

43:02 I also really, excuse me, have found my work with recovering from religion to be really, truly healing.

43:09 Really you Yeah.

43:10 Yeah, for sure. Right, so we’ve got a couple of kind of rapid fire questions.

43:15 if you could go back and speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

43:20 I would say enough. You’ve done enough. You’ve had enough. You are enough.

43:24 Yeah, I think that’s it.

43:25 Beautiful. I

43:27 love that. What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

43:32 You can’t put a date on it. There is no right time. And the journey can be occurring for someone mentally for years before they decide to take that step.

43:44 For JWs especially, there’s such a strong secular distrust that they are so exceptionally isolated from accessing resources. And

43:54 Absolutely.

43:55 you just there’s so many factors why someone might stay. And I’d just like to end with a a or paraphrase a weak quote that I feel really sums it up.

44:06 by Chris Rinali, who’s a philosopher, talking about indoctrination, that

44:11 Mm.

44:12 indoctrinated minds can be sharp and well read, but are united in treating doubt as danger and counter evidence as enemy attack.

44:22 And the antidote isn’t better arguments, but creating safe spaces where changing your mind is treated as courage rather than betrayal or weakness. Any belief

44:32 I know, isn’t it wonderful? It’s it ends any

44:35 belief that comes prepackaged with the instruction that seriously questioning it is either irrational or immoral. It’s a psychological cage, a cage where the door in and out stays barred. So

44:50 I believe we need to keep creating safe spaces for those ready to escape the cage and it’s why I’m so incredibly grateful for the work that people such as yourselves are doing, the work of Decult, the survivors,

45:03 Yeah.

45:04 the advocates, the documentary makers, all the sharers. Yeah.

45:08 It’s awesome, isn’t it? Yeah. And your work, the work you’re doing.

45:13 Pat on the back.

45:14 Yeah.

45:15 Thank you so much, for your time today. And I I think it’d be it’d be great

45:17 Thank you.

45:21 to have a have you come in and talk maybe about your work sometime and that the whole

45:26 that would be amazing.

45:27 Armagem getum topic would be really interesting too. So Yeah. Yeah, yeah,

45:31 Well, that’s a big one.

45:33 yeah. Maybe we could do a panel. I’d quite like to do that. Yeah. Yeah.

45:36 That would be great. That would be great. Yeah.

45:39 Alright, now we wrap up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you, Zara, for coming along. I know your story will inspire and bring hope to many people. Thank you for spending time with us today, listeners. We know these stories can stir a lot, and we’re grateful that you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to feel.

46:05 If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, reach out if you need to. You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their healing work. Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.