Episode 010 — Grace Tempest

0:01 Welcome to another episode of Unspun, where we unravel the stories of cult recovery, examine how people recover, and focus on thriving. Welcome, Grace.

0:12 Thanks for having me.

0:14 First, I’ll fill you in on a bit about Grace and then we’ll start the interview. Grace is a third generation

0:22 cult member and became the first person in her family to break the cycle of abuse and high control thinking. It has

0:29 taken years for her to fully understand what happened to her and to begin undoing the beliefs, behaviors, and

0:36 worldview she was raised to accept as normal. Much of her healing and deconstruction journey was done alone,

0:45 learning from scratch how to rebuild her sense of self, think critically, and live outside the system she grew up in.

0:53 In recent years, her sister joined her on that journey, which helped accelerate the process of unpacking and making a sense of their shared experiences.

1:04 She moved in and out of the group from her early 20s, navigating the complex pull of family conditioning, fear, and

1:12 identity while slowly finding her own path forward. It’s great to have you here.

1:19 Thanks. It’s so exciting. Yeah, nerve-wracking. You know how it is.

1:23 Yeah, definitely nerve-wracking. Um, but just relax. It shouldn’t be too full on.

1:29 Um, I guess to start with, we’d just like to get a kind of background of um, the cult that you were a part of um, and

1:39 who held the power and that kind of stuff within the group. Um, could you give us a brief overview of the cult you were a part of?

1:48 So um they call themselves message believers um to the outside world. I think Google calls them brandites or

1:55 banimism depending. Um yeah.

1:58 So for me growing up in it I I didn’t know this. I we just called ourselves message believers. So um if for us it it

2:07 looked very much like for women very controlling. Um men had all the power.

2:12 women were essentially there to just have as many children as they could um and listen to their husbands. Uh there wasn’t

2:20 there wasn’t a lot of happy roles for women in there. Um yeah, it was

2:29 very kept very very sort of quiet. You you kept very isolated from the outside world and you weren’t allowed to really talk about it because they just didn’t

2:37 understand. Um right.

2:39 So yeah, it was I don’t even know how I would describe it to an outside person, but you you can tell that they’re different because the woman would be the big standout points.

2:50 You weren’t allowed to cut your hair, no makeup, no jewelry, you’d be wearing dresses to the floor. Um it was frowned

2:57 upon if you had them any higher than your knees are very frowned upon. You get a talking to from all the big wigs. Yeah.

3:05 So, it’ be things like that. Um and the men had it pretty easy. So yeah, as a woman it was really really rough.

3:12 Right. And did you all live together on a compound or did you live in separate houses?

3:18 So the theory was that we were um in this world but not a part of it.

3:24 So they utilized that as a way of like we had our own houses in different parts of areas of the community like all over New Zealand there’s churches um and we

3:32 came together under one belief in the church. So you would often times not know that they’re in the community.

3:40 Yeah. So um I guess you just mentioned before that it sounds like men held the

3:47 power. So quite a patriarchal kind of setup. Yeah.

3:52 So um women were not allowed to teach uh except in Sunday schools where they were caring for children anyway. So it was part of their role. Um but they would

4:00 prefer it if they could have a Sunday school teacher that was a male. But often times most the men teachers were either pastors or teachers that went

4:08 overseas um and they’ hold like men’s meetings or pastors meetings and you could never be a female pastor.

4:16 Right. Yeah.

4:17 So that was it was quite a shock to me when I found out other people outside of the church were female pastors. It was like what?

4:25 Yeah. Right. Such a foreign concept. Yeah. How did that translate um into the home?

4:32 Uh the man was the head of the house. He made the decisions. Um the woman was there to fulfill his needs. A lot of times in a household of a married

4:41 couple, um the husband would be working, the woman would be staying home all day looking after the children, keeping the house clean. Um and he’d come home and,

4:49 you know, he would get to relax and wind down and the woman would never stop. She would stop until she went to bed, basically. Wow.

4:55 Um and you got to see that from a very young age in a lot of households. And a lot of times um if a woman was speaking

5:04 out they would the leaders of the church would turn to the men and be like you need to control your wife. Um and if there was no man in that household the

5:12 deacons would come to the wife the the woman and be like if you don’t control your children or do make them behave we’re going to start getting down on you

5:20 kind of thing. Um right smacking was very common in the ch in the church and within a household. Um

5:27 it was quite common to see children dragged out of church screaming and getting smacked quite severely. Like I I say smacked as it was beating, right?

5:36 It was very violent. Yeah.

5:38 Yeah. It was very rough seeing that and looking back now. It’s horrible.

5:43 Yeah. Yeah, for sure. Do you have memories of that kind of thing?

5:47 Yeah. Yeah, I do. Um I have ADHD and autism, so I really struggle to sit still. For me, I’m always fidgeting, always moving something. And I could

5:55 never sit still in church. Um, and before my parents split up, my dad used to take me out and regularly smack me.

6:02 Um, and then when he was not there, the deacons would come up behind me and tap me on the shoulder and give me a look.

6:08 Like, it was you sort your [ __ ] out or we’re going to smack you. Um, and if that didn’t work, then they’d sit me next to the door next

6:16 to them the whole church service, right? Oh, that sounds so intimidating.

6:21 So intimidating. Yeah. You’d be sitting there just like sitting on your hands like hoping you don’t twitch the wrong way.

6:26 Right. Oh, that sounds awful. So horrible. Hated church.

6:32 So, I guess that answers the question about the roles for men and women. It sounds like a very traditional kind of

6:41 um church where women wear the long dresses and long hair and men got to do whatever they want essentially.

6:49 Yeah. The only rules they really had was, you know, no drinking, no alcohol. They had to have their hair tidy.

6:55 They weren’t allowed to wear shorts was like the only rule. But in each individual households, people kind of did their like they flexed a little bit

7:03 on the rules, but you would never do it at like a church gathering ever.

7:07 Right. What was it like in your household?

7:10 Um, it was very strict early on and then after my dad left, my mom took over the role and essentially just reinforced it.

7:17 And I think she was actually probably harder than my dad would have been, right? Yeah.

7:22 Um, do you think she was compensating for not having a male in the house?

7:28 Probably. Yeah, I think that would be the case. She felt like she had to step up and be both the father and the mother in the role.

7:35 Um, and maybe she just wanted to prove to everybody that she could raise these kids on her own, you know, right?

7:42 Cuz I mean, her marriage failed, so she had something to prove essentially.

7:45 That’s what she saw it as, which is a shame.

7:50 What are your first memories of the cult?

7:54 Uh, it’d be sitting in church. That’s the earliest one. I can remember being held by my mom and she was holding me. I must have been really little.

8:03 Um, I think she would have been pregnant with my younger sister then.

8:06 And I remember like just not being able to sit still and she kept trying to like get me to sit still and it was just like I remember just being so so bored.

8:14 Yeah. cuz services were not short. 2 hours was kind of the average.

8:18 Wow. That’s a long time for a little child. Yeah. For a little kid that was rough. Yeah.

8:25 How were children treated?

8:28 They were expected to be silent to not allowed to speak up. Um we oftent times went up to did like items in front of

8:35 the church and everybody like that, oh let’s do a kids item. And then all of the kids had to go up. You didn’t have a choice. And I hated it cuz I they used

8:44 to position me in front of the microphone and I used to get laughed at and I just found that so embarrassing and so shameful. Yeah.

8:50 Um you’re expected to do your schoolwork or um go to Sunday school, come in, sit still, and just be quiet. You weren’t

8:58 allowed to be just kids. After church was the best part because you could just run around and be kids, right?

9:05 Um in the in the home, you weren’t allowed to be fussy. You weren’t allowed to have emotions. You weren’t allowed to Yeah.

9:13 just be kids really, right? Yeah. So, there was this expectation that you would be seen and not heard and that. Yeah.

9:21 Yeah.

9:24 How did the group shape the way you saw yourself and other people in the outside world?

9:33 Uh, I actually ended up having a very self-critical view of myself. I hated myself. I hated what I looked like and I

9:40 thought that was being humble. Uh I thought that was part of the process. Um and I used to judge people a lot and

9:48 then I realized it was not something I wanted to do. That was part of the process of things fragmenting.

9:53 Um and I had like this sense of helplessness. I didn’t know how to do anything for myself because like God is to do everything for you. He’s the one

10:01 that’s meant to be like doing the things in your life. Um it also made me have a very narrow viewpoint that this was the only option

10:10 and everybody else was wrong and that affected me a lot later on.

10:15 Um it took a long time to sort of break that habit.

10:18 Um the narrow viewpoint was one of the strongest ones. Yeah.

10:23 The the people that the quotes the constant quotes from different parts of what they believed in. Um that was that was a big part in it.

10:31 Yeah. For sure. I don’t think we’ve um talked about what’s the name of your cult.

10:37 Um the message message believers or banimism. It comes from Yeah.

10:43 Uh William Brham who’s an American like they called him prophet. Yeah.

10:48 And they believe there was a prophet for every age after Jesus died and there was like one Paul after that Martinian Luther and then Brandham came right at the end.

10:58 Right. Um, and he started off his ministry with a healing thing and then evolved into deeper stuff. Um, but I

11:06 learned later on that that so much more than that. There was like the KKK were paying him to preach and

11:14 um, there was a lot more behind the scenes that was not accurate or true and that he talked about and in the message in the churches they

11:22 would explain it away. And it got to the point in the churches that they saw him as some kind of a god that he could do no wrong.

11:31 Um and that was one of the things that I had a big problem with. Right. Cuz I was like he’s just a human. Yes. And they just could not hear me. Yeah.

11:39 And being the fact that I was a woman and I was speaking about this this was not good. Right. Unacceptable behavior.

11:46 Yeah. I I have vague um recollections of him um of a a lot of other offshoot

11:55 Christian fundamentalist churches believing in his Yeah. teachings. Is that right?

12:02 There there’s I mean there’s a lot of churches all around New Zealand. Um and I mean even in Australia there’s a whole bunch of them.

12:10 Um I don’t know of other offshoot churches. I mean the whole core belief system of the message believers

12:17 is like Brandon and there is some versions of it. Yes.

12:23 That have been changed and they still classify themselves as message believers. Right.

12:28 So um my mom’s in one at the moment that’s like the original one’s like a

12:34 oneness. They believe that Jesus is God and God is Jesus. Whereas this other offshoot believes they’re two separate people. So like that kind of offshoots

12:42 rather than Yeah, it’s like the variations you sort of see which is the whole thing’s messy. Yes, for sure.

12:50 Gets so complex. Yeah.

12:55 What happened if someone doubted or pushed back on the rules?

12:59 Um generally depended if they were adult or a child.

13:04 If they were a child, it was up to the parents to discipline them and pull them under and pull them back. Um, my sister was really bad at pushing against the

13:12 rules and she just got beat more. Um, right.

13:15 There was other people in the church that pushed back against the rules and their parents are a little bit more chilled out about it.

13:22 They said, “Well, you can make your own decisions when you turn 16.” Um, and they ended up ultimately leaving. Yeah.

13:28 The consequences of that is that you’d never see them again. It was like kind of a silent shunning. You just, you know, never talk to them. you’d kind of

13:36 ignore them and they were just people that oh, you don’t want to end up like them. They’d be used as an example, right?

13:41 Oh, they’re going to go to hell, you know? It was really based around like tribulation, like it’s the end times sort of thing. So, it was like scaremongering everywhere.

13:53 So, did they have a kind of doomsday philosophy?

13:57 Yeah, they did. Like, it was it’s the end times, you need to believe now.

14:01 Let’s watch out for the visions that the prophet spoke about. like that kind of feel.

14:05 So, you’re always feeling like anxious and stressed and worried like am I doing enough? Am I going to be enough? Like, and you never did. You

14:13 never felt enough, right?

14:15 Did they have a whole rapture kind of philosophy? Yeah, they did. Yeah.

14:20 They um three days before Jesus would come, the dead would rise and those that are his chosen would see the dead. Um

14:29 and then they would celebrate with them and then the rapture would happen three days later. And they said it was only going to be very scarce for you. So you had to be super careful.

14:38 Yeah.

14:39 And you had to really like believe in God and read your Bible and pray and just be really devout. Like it was Yeah. Yeah.

14:47 I always wonder um because my cult didn’t have a rapture or end days philosophy. I think there’s an extra

14:56 layer of trauma associated with those beliefs.

15:00 the anxiety and the stress like even like my sister when she left one of the first things she’s like you know

15:09 Jesus is not going to God’s not going to love me if I leave I’m like that’s not a loving person if you’re choosing something because it’s right for you and

15:17 it feel like it’s it it’s what’s appropriate for you. A person who loves you is not going to be like you’re a horrible person. They’re going to be

15:25 like it’s okay. I understand. And like Jesus was a rebel. Like he did things that

15:32 were so shocked and horrified all the religious people.

15:35 I was like we’re supposed to be modeling our lives after him, you know.

15:38 And that was like kind of the easiest way to help break it down. And it helped me by talking to her. Right.

15:43 To sort of break things down for myself, right? So it helped you deconstruct your experience by supporting her. Yeah.

15:51 Right.

15:52 Some of the stuff I didn’t even realize I was still holding on to.

15:55 Right. And it’s just like, oh, there’s another thing I have to go look at and work out and break down. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

16:06 When do you think the first cracks started to appear for you?

16:12 Um, they started pretty early. Um, seeing that little kid getting dragged out of church getting a hiding and then brought in to be paid for later because

16:20 his arm potentially dislocated during it was absolutely horrifying to me. Like it makes me it makes me want to

16:28 cry like now cuz it’s just he wasn’t even 18 months old. Like he was a baby baby, right?

16:33 Um that’s horrific. And then um seeing women in the church, how they got treated and when they were married, I

16:42 didn’t want to get married because I’m like, if this is how women are treated, I don’t want to spend the rest of my life cooking and cleaning cuz that’s what I’m already doing. Yeah.

16:49 Like my mom was spent most of the time locked itself in the bedroom and she’d only come out to punish us or tell us off or yell at us. Um

16:57 so us older girls did all the cooking and cleaning, right?

17:00 I’m like, this is just my life, but with added stress of raising children. I’m like, I don’t want that. Yeah. Too stressful.

17:07 I want I want a husband who’s a partner who’s going to do it with me. Yeah.

17:10 You know, he’s going to help me with the cleaning and the cooking.

17:13 Um, so that was like part of the fragmentation. Um, and then my sister asking me like,

17:20 “Would you smack your children?” It was one of those like I’ve never thought of that moment. And I went back and I looked and I was like, “Actually, no.” Like, yeah, it hurt me. Why would I want to pass that on?

17:30 Yeah. And then that broke open the whole why I don’t want to pass any of this on. Yeah.

17:35 And that just kind of blew the whole thing to pieces. Right.

17:39 So it’s just like little fragments that just started showing up all along the way. Right. You talk about fragmentation.

17:46 What What does that mean for you?

17:49 It’s like the cult being like a glass pane really and then like you get a crack and it starts another crack and then eventually

17:57 the whole thing just kind of shatters apart, right?

18:00 Um and then you realize it’s all nothing but just glass. It’s not actually anything you can rely on. I think that might have been part of the process why

18:08 I stayed for so long was because it’s the only consistent thing in my life and it was the thing that I relied on to make me feel safe. M

18:17 um it was terrifying when it started. It was terrifying because I was like everything I’ve been taught is a lie.

18:26 Like what do I do now? What is real?

18:28 What’s not? I’ve been lied to my whole life. Like Yeah. Oh my gosh. What do I do?

18:32 Yeah. That must have been so um terrifying.

18:36 It was just devastating like world ending kind of. But in a good way like Yeah. Yeah.

18:40 Cuz once you deconstruct all that, you can restart and you actually have a more stable sort of world view and foundation

18:48 for your life, right? Yeah.

18:52 Did you try to silence those kind of questionings or the fragments? Try and glue it all back together.

18:59 For a long time, I made excuses for it.

19:01 And that’s probably why I was in and out of the church for most of my 20s because I was trying to pretend that what I was seeing wasn’t real. um that the only real thing was

19:10 the church and the message. Um and then I just couldn’t anymore. Just couldn’t piece it together because it

19:18 was destroying me and my core beliefs and who I was as a person and yeah, it just got to the point I just I couldn’t hold it together. So, right. Yeah, that makes sense.

19:30 What was the moment, event or realization that made you understand that you couldn’t keep living inside

19:38 that faith or that world, their treatment of people who were different, right?

19:46 Their treatment of people that chose to speak up and say, “Hey, this is wrong.” They they weren’t willing to hear it.

19:52 They weren’t willing to try and change or be different. And they couldn’t accept people who dress differently.

19:58 Right? If you felt that dresses weren’t for you, then you didn’t understand what the message was about and you had to leave, you know,

20:05 they didn’t accept people who were different. And I was different. Very different, right?

20:10 So, I was like a sore thumb in a crowd of thumbs, right? You know. Yeah.

20:14 So, it was understanding that I don’t think I could ever go back from that point.

20:19 And then once I married my husband, it was a definite, “That’s never going to happen again,” right?

20:23 And I had the security and the safety with him, right? He wasn’t in the church. No. Right.

20:29 Um, he was part of the process that helped me completely stay out because he had that safety and security and he

20:37 encouraged me to just be me, right?

20:39 Be more of me. And I’d never had anyone who just loved me for me. It was like a, “Uh, how do I deal with this?” moment. And

20:46 then like, “Oh my gosh, there’s a different side to life.”

20:51 Yeah. It’s like, “I can be happy outside of this.” Yeah.

20:54 But I also had to go through that whole process of learning to love myself and accept who I was before I even got to him because I couldn’t accept love from

21:03 anyone because I didn’t think I was worth it.

21:06 Right. So that whole cult background was what caused a lot of that.

21:12 So you managed to work through some of that self-hatred stuff before you met your husband? Yeah. A lot of it. Yeah.

21:19 Um, yeah. He encouraged me to do so much. Yeah.

21:24 What was the most difficult thing about leaving for you?

21:28 Accepting that my family… I was never going to get a mother. I was never going to get a father. I was going to have to parent myself. Right.

21:36 That was the hardest realization because that’s all I had wanted growing up was a mom, was someone who would be there for me, who would just love me for me and

21:44 just be a parent, you know, showing up for your kid.

21:49 And that was the real hard bit. I was like, “I’m never going to get that.” Right.

22:00 How did you, um, start to deconstruct what had happened to you?

22:08 Me and my sister sat down. This is fairly new. We had someone bring it up in our group chat about how Branham was

22:16 funded by the KKK and we’re like, “Okay, well, we need to sit down and look at this.” But we spent a few months just avoiding the topic because we just

22:23 weren’t ready. Um, and then one day I said, “You know what?

22:26 Maybe we should just sit down and just have a real deep dive into Google and see what Google says.” Um, let’s try and do as much evidence-based research as we can and

22:34 just try and break it down. And we started doing that and we just started deconstructing what we learned and what we knew and realized a lot of it is basically just coercion and manipulation.

22:48 And when we had a label for it, that started making things easier, right? TikTok was an amazing resource for us because I started on

22:57 there and I started seeing therapy and therapists talking about different things, what toxic behavior looked like, what

23:04 narcissism looks like, what coercion, what control looks like.

23:09 Um, and then I started going, “This is my family. This is the church I grew up in.” And I went, “Oh, I’m in trouble.”

23:16 Yeah.

23:17 So then I went, “Something needs to change.”

23:21 And we had to deconstruct it to understand what it looked like so we could stay away from that. We could see the red flags. Yeah.

23:29 Took me so long to see red flags. Yeah. It can be a lengthy process.

23:35 It’s tedious. And sometimes I’m still like, “Ah, still didn’t see that one.”

23:40 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. At least now you’re recognizing that you missed one.

23:44 Yeah. And I’m like, “Okay, now I can mentally leave a little marker there. Like, that’s a red flag. I noticed that.” Yeah. Yeah.

23:53 Yeah. I think that’s such a huge part of recovery is that kind of, um, I don’t know if it’s as kind of simple as this, but

24:02 there seems to be a phase in everyone’s recovery where you spend a solid amount of time deconstructing what happened. Yeah.

24:10 Yeah.

24:10 There’s just so much like, “Okay, what is this based off? Is it actually true? Is it actually important?” Um, like I still have a belief that there is

24:19 a God out there, that Jesus was probably real, but a lot of it’s been changed by history, by the telling, by everything.

24:26 So we don’t actually know what is 100% accurate or not. Yeah.

24:29 Like, I don’t actually know, and I’m actually okay with that. Yeah.

24:34 I heard a woman on TikTok. She was talking to her child and they said, “What happens when we die?” And she says, “Well, I don’t actually know, but I know

24:42 before we were born, we weren’t awake, you know, and it was peaceful and was nice. And I’d like to think that when we die, it’s kind of like that. It’s

24:50 just like resting, and it’s peaceful and it’s calm.” Yeah.

24:54 And I just thought, “I’ve never heard anyone put it like that.” Yeah. Yeah. And I’m just… I kind of like that.

24:59 Like it’s not something I’ve ever thought of. And I’m just like, I’ve always thought that, you know, if you didn’t believe in God in their format you were going to hell, and hell was just

25:06 forever and your, you know, eternal burning, whatever. For me, I was living in that. Like, my own mind was hell. So, like, for me, hell would have

25:15 been just a bit more of what I was living in. Yeah. Yeah, for sure.

25:19 So yeah, the fact that there is a possibility of peace is kind of like, “Oh, that’s nice.”

25:25 Yeah. And I love the way you appreciated just, um, that simple concept. Like often

25:33 cults and religions can make these things so complex.

25:38 And, um, I’ve often been asked, “What do you believe in now?” And I’m like, “I just believe in the religion of being a

25:47 good person.” Yeah, that’s it. Simple.

25:50 You care about people, so you want to make sure that you look after them, that you do your best to be a good person yourself because

25:58 what you put out in the world comes back to you. So yeah, you treat someone badly, they’re probably going to treat you badly. So do you actually want that? No. Yeah. Exactly.

26:05 It’s like basic humanity. Yeah.

26:11 When did you realize that leaving was only part of it and that you also had to deconstruct what happened?

26:20 I mean, when I first left, I kind of knew a little bit subconsciously, but it took me years to figure out how to deconstruct it.

26:27 And I really wanted my sister to come with me because I just didn’t have anybody. Like, my older sister was just… she was never going to leave.

26:35 She never had that mindset. Yeah.

26:36 Whereas my younger sister always had a bit of a rebel in her. So there was always going to be an element of maybe she would leave, but maybe not. And I mean, she got married. She brought her husband

26:45 into the church. Um, they’re divorced now, which is great. She’s much happier without him.

26:51 Um, but there was always an element of, “Would she hear me?” And that was the hardest bit. And she got to a point

26:59 where we were able to sit down one day and have a really good discussion. And I was like, “I might actually be able to get her to understand where I’m coming from.” Yeah.

27:07 Um, and then I started realizing there’s more to deconstruct than what I realized. Like, yes, I knew that I had to

27:15 deconstruct it and had to try and figure out why this was such a big part of my life and why it was important. Um, but then there was more. It was like the actual

27:23 rules, regulations, and elements of the whole thing. It’s like, “Oh man.” Yeah. So it’s a whole process.

27:31 Yeah, absolutely.

27:33 What beliefs or reflexes were the hardest to unlearn?

27:41 The self-judgment.

27:41 Yeah. The self-criticism, hatred, um, the unexpected manipulation that you

27:50 pick up from the church, from the family.

27:54 Um, there’s specific phrases and words that are used as manipulation. The helplessness was really hard to get rid of.

28:02 I didn’t know how to do things for myself. I didn’t know how to take initiative to change my own life, to actually go out there and act on it.

28:09 Like, I knew the words. I knew how to say things, because I just didn’t know how to do it. Yeah. Like, that was one of the hardest things.

28:14 And once I figured that one out, I was like, “Oh, okay. Now this is easy.” Yeah. Yeah. It was like so many little hard things.

28:22 The subconscious little bits that kept coming up. The trauma was the hard bit to deal with, too. Yeah.

28:27 Um, how did that impact on you?

28:32 Quite a lot. Like, I think I’ve spent most of my 20s deconstructing, working on myself. A lot of people are just enjoying their 20s, you know.

28:40 Yeah. And I’ve spent the whole time working on fixing this mess, learning how to protect myself because I was never protected in the church

28:48 when I should have been. Even I think most churches nowadays try to protect people. Yeah.

28:54 Um, I was sexually assaulted when I was a little kid by my grandfather. And my mom’s like, “Oh, what do you want me

29:02 to do about it?” I’m like, “I don’t know. You’re the parent. You’re supposed to know.” Oh.

29:06 Um, she’s like, “Oh, I guess we cannot see him anymore, but that means I don’t get to see my dad.” And I’m like, “Uh, okay.

29:14 Well, then you’re allowed to see him, I guess.” Why am I making the rules? I’m like a 12-year-old.

29:19 Yeah. Oh, that’s horrific. I’m so sorry you had to go through that.

29:24 It’s just… Yeah, it’s taken me so long to get to the point where I was able to go to the police about it. And I think that should have been done right off the bat. But yeah, straight away.

29:33 It was all swept under the rug. Everyone was just like, “Oh, shh, we don’t talk about it. You know, you’re going to upset her.” I’m like, “I want things to go back to normal, but I want things to be fixed normal.” And I didn’t know what that looked like.

29:42 Now, as an adult, I’m like, “I know how to do that.” So, if it ever comes up for me again, I know the right move. I hope it never does, you know.

29:51 Yeah. Yeah.

29:52 And just like the whole being sexually assaulted as a child, with the cult on top of that, it just basically created a cycle of abuse from relationship to relationship. Mm-hmm.

30:03 Um, even the beatings, they’re all part of the whole mental thing. I I like I need to be punished was one of the weirdest things I had to had to break through. It was whenever I did something wrong, I was like, I need someone to give me a hiding because I don’t believe I’m I’m got enough of a punishment to deserve it. And that was just like a looking back it like what? That makes no sense.

30:25 But it it does. When you’re used to being hurt and being told that this is love, you start looking for that and then you end up in relationships where you’re going to get hurt and maybe borderline almost killed. Yeah. Because the the people are dangerous.

30:39 Exactly. And I I I like what you said too about um feeling the need to be punished because often in those environments once you’re punished you’re free of what you did wrong.

30:48 Yes. Exactly. Yeah. And and and if you don’t get punished, then it’s just hanging over you. Like this karmic kind of debt.

30:59 You’re just waiting for it to come back and get you. Like for me, when we got in trouble as kids, if mom couldn’t figure out who it was,

31:07 um we’d be sitting there waiting.

31:10 And for me, the waiting was worse than the actual punishment. So I’d be like, “Oh, it was me.” Even if it wasn’t, right?

31:14 And I’ll take the punishment because I just wanted it over and done with. I don’t want to sit there sweating for hours. Yeah.

31:20 Like it was it was horrible. It’s a horrible way to live. And I think the other thing that you raise is that

31:31 you’re unable to say no or protect yourself in those environments because you’re so subservient. Yeah. You are not allowed to say no.

31:39 Don’t talk back to me was the response you get.

31:42 Um and you were like like how am I supposed to you asking me for a response and I give you a response and you say don’t talk back to me. So I’m like this is like a horrible cycle.

31:51 like how am I supposed to do what you want but also give you the response you want? Yeah.

31:56 And like I I was always questioning stuff and that did not go down well. I want to know why.

32:01 I had to know why for for like my autism I have to know why. Yeah. Um that did not go down well at all.

32:07 Yeah. Talking back to me, right? Go sit on the naughty chair. I’m going to give you a hiding. And it’s like oh cool another one. Yeah. For what? Yeah.

32:15 I just got so used to it. Yeah.

32:18 So, what did you what was helpful or what techniques did you learn for protecting yourself?

32:28 Um, mine are really sort of simple. It’s realizing that there is law out there that protects people.

32:36 Um, for me, I finally got up the guts and I went to the police station, reported the people that have hurt me because that’s a form of protection. I know that I can also get protection orders against people if they continue coming to my place or harassing me or contacting me

32:51 if I don’t wish it. Like I’m no contact with any of my family besides my sister and my brother, right? Which aren’t in the cult.

32:58 Um but I also know now that I can also use social media to protect myself too.

33:02 Like I can block them. Um but also I have a right to say no and they can just leave me alone and if they don’t I can call the police and get back up, you know.

33:12 Yeah. Yeah. And people around me I know will step in cuz I’ve seen I’ve done it myself. Other people when they’re sort of like freaking out or having issues, I’m like it’s okay. You don’t have to like I’m here. If you need something, I’ll be here to support you, you know? Yeah.

33:23 And I didn’t realize how much of a friendly place that this world actually is. Like people actually genuinely want to help and and how much resources are available. Like I wish I’d known so many more of these resources.

33:36 Wow. Yeah. That’s because they would have helped me move out of there so much faster.

33:39 Right. Yeah. I guess that the whole isolation from mainstream society cuts you off from any knowledge of how to help yourself. And we were told that nobody was safe. Like you can’t trust anybody. It’s just your family and the church.

33:58 And when you can’t trust your family and you know you can’t trust your family and the church doesn’t seem that trustworthy either, you’re kind of like, um, where

34:06 do I go? M I mean I was homeschooled too so even less like I didn’t have any school friends or anything.

34:14 Yeah. So extremely sheltered. Yep. Yeah.

34:17 And naive. I I had no idea about any of the things that you’re supposed to look out for. Yeah.

34:23 To protect yourself. Now I know I can do that. Yeah. For sure. Yeah.

34:30 What helped you start building a life that felt like your own?

34:38 That’s a good question. Um, I started working towards what was important to me, what felt safe.

34:47 Um, for me, having a house, my own house that no one could take away from me, that couldn’t, you know, didn’t turn up to do house inspections, you know, every 3 months. I had that. It felt like my childhood all over again, right?

34:58 Because that’s what my mom would do, inspections, room inspections, you know, if it wasn’t clean, you were in trouble.

35:04 Yeah. and someone with ADHD who struggles with overwhelm so easily, it was a nightmare.

35:09 Um, having my own home, having someone who cared for me, loved me for just me.

35:15 Um, having a job that was flexible, that helped me like not get stuck in the whole 9 to5 was a big thing.

35:25 Um, my own space, like all of these little things, just creating like a little pocket of safety and security for myself was like such a big deal for me. Yeah. Yeah. I think that’s huge especially if you come out very traumatized is um where is your

35:42 safety in the outside world and creating that sense of safety or like a space where you can feel that.

35:50 Yeah.

35:51 For me living in the country feels safe, you know. Yeah.

35:55 So like there’s not many people. I’m not going to get door knocked and hey, do you want to buy this thing? Cuz that that’s just please go away. Scary.

36:02 Yeah. Strangers are scary still.

36:04 Right. So, you still find that challenging? Yeah. That’s one of the big things.

36:09 Speaking up and strangers, right?

36:12 I mean, even seeing people from the cult is still terrifying to me. Yeah.

36:16 Seeing one in public and I just panic. I just don’t know what to do. Right.

36:20 The therapist is helping me through that, which is wonderful. Yeah. Yeah.

36:27 What helped you learn to trust yourself again?

36:32 therapy was a big part in it, right?

36:34 Learning that what I felt was real. Um, I shoved a lot of my emotions down, buried them. And and I’d wonder why I’d have these massive explosive meltdowns. Like I’d never do them anyone else around. I’d just lose it at home. Completely lose it. Yeah.

36:49 Um, and did some like mindfulness clinics and stuff. And learning how to feel emotions was a big big thing. Um,

36:59 and embracing the fact that the way I saw saw the world was that was different was actually kind of a good thing. Yeah.

37:05 Like all these little things, just the therapy, the combination of that and doing anti-depressants for a little while to just help push the trauma down so I can work through it.

37:14 Yeah.

37:15 Like all of these little things. There’s so many little things that just helped gain my sense of self back.

37:20 Yeah. And like I’m so happy in myself like physically and emotionally like for the first time around my life. I feel like I’m finally me. I’m allowed to be me and it’s actually completely okay.

37:32 But there’s no one telling me how to live my life. And if they do, I’m like door’s that way, buddy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Out you go.

37:39 Yeah. I don’t want you in my life. If you’re going to tell me how to live it, it’s mine. Yeah. Yeah.

37:43 And that like having that control and that claim over your own life is huge. It’s absolutely huge.

37:48 It’s massive, isn’t it? when you when you come from a childhood where you could you didn’t have a single choice over anything anything at all.

37:56 So you developed um a real sense of yourself and agency and safety and connection it sounds like. Yeah.

38:03 Yeah. And therapy sounds like a big part of that and mindfulness.

38:08 It has helped a lot like I was I was already in the right direction. I just needed examples on how to action things and how to how to do it physically.

38:18 Yeah. And when once I got that, I’m like, “Okay, right.” And even my therapist has said, she’s like, “Wow, in the last year, you’ve just gone from like zero to 100.” She’s like, “You’ve just you were ready for that take off.

38:27 You just need a little bit of push behind you.” And that was it. Yeah.

38:30 Which is awesome. Like it makes me feel good. Like I’m doing so well.

38:34 Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s happening. It’s happening.

38:41 Were there everyday things that became part of your recovery like movement, rest, chosen family, creativity, or being in nature?

38:53 Started off with the small things like I started sitting outside in the mornings just feeling the sun on my face with the hot chocolate just just being in the moment.

39:02 Yeah. Um and then it evolved to I really struggled with resting because you know when when you grow up in a in a household you’re doing all the jobs sitting down if you sat for a moment and mom walked in what are you doing you know there’s stuff you need to do so like sitting down resting was really hard and then

39:19 someone with a chronic illness because I’ve got Ellis Dan loss as well so like for me joint pain is everyday occurrence. Yeah.

39:26 Allowing myself to rest and realize I’m not actually doing nothing. I’m actually doing what my body needs which is rest.

39:31 That was a huge part. Um, knowing how important sleep was as well, started working on that. But when someone when you had no control over when you went to bed, having that time before bed, like you just end up staying up so late because you’re like, I don’t want to go to bed because it feels like a punishment, you know?

39:48 Yeah.

39:49 So, like changing the mindset is like this is not a pun, this is not a punishment. My body needs rest. I deserve to go to sleep.

39:56 Like changing that whole way you view it has changed everything. like eating good food not because I have to eat good food and junk food is like the reward. The good food is the reward. The junk food’s just like a it’s a little bit of nice stuff on the side but ultimately you feel sick after a while so it doesn’t actually help you.

40:15 Um but yeah, the little things like sitting outside and literally stopping to smell the flowers. If you see something pretty and you’re like, “Wow, that’s pretty.” Instead of going,

40:23 “That’s nice.” And keep walking, you go, “Let’s just actually have a look at this for a minute.” you know, genuinely taking the time to just look at something and just be there.

40:32 Like that has been a huge part of it.

40:34 Um, resting, like telling myself it’s completely okay to rest.

40:38 Um, having the freedom to make choices and if you can’t make choices, come back and make the choice. Yeah.

40:45 Like when I was a kid, I wasn’t allowed to choose ice creams. I was like, “You need to pick one now.” And like the pressure was on and I just couldn’t do it. I just panic and I’m like, “Okay,

40:52 you go without.” Now I’m like, you know, I can’t decide between the two, so I’m going to get both. Yeah. Or sometimes I’m gonna choose this one.

40:59 I’m like, actually, it’s that one I wanted. So then I know. Yeah.

41:02 You know, like having the option to go, I don’t really have to make a choice like that anymore. It’s it’s a big thing. It takes a lot of the pressure off.

41:10 Yeah. That’s great.

41:12 If it’s trying new foods as well, like my husband’s great. Like he’ll be like, “Do you want to try a bite of mine?” And for me, like if I buy it for myself and I don’t like it, it feels such a waste.

41:21 Yeah. Yeah.

41:21 So, like if I try a bite of his, he’s already eating it, so it’s no loss. And I know next time that I like that food. Yeah.

41:28 Which has helped so much with my anxiety around eating as well, right?

41:31 Cuz like we used to sit for hours at the kitchen table and get hiding so we didn’t eat food and Right.

41:38 I honestly some of the stuff that my mom made I’d rather stuff, right?

41:42 And it was like that. I would have I would have starved.

41:44 Um Wow. I think I probably did in some parts.

41:48 Yeah. I was very very thin as a teenager because my mom was a terrible cook. Oh, that’s horrendous.

41:57 And I’m the complete opposite.

41:58 And that’s when you need really good nourishment, too. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So important.

42:07 Were there fears that stayed in your system even after you no longer believe the teachings?

42:15 The uh the end of the world one. That one took me quite a while to get over. Yeah.

42:23 Um the fear that everything’s going to fall to pieces and that’s it, you know.

42:30 Um I mean, the world’s been going for how many hundreds of thousands of years anyway?

42:35 One of one of my life is just not going to make much of a difference really. Um yeah. And if anything’s going to happen, it’s going to happen so slowly that

42:43 well, I’m probably not going to be around for it anyway. So, and if something big and catastrophic happens, I hope I’m wiped out fast. So,

42:51 it’s like I’ll just enjoy my life in the meantime, you know, just let it be a painless end.

42:57 That was that was a really hard one. I used to get hooked into all the like news disaster things. Everything’s falling to pieces. And then I got to the

43:04 point it was actually affecting my mental health. So, I stopped looking at the news. I just can’t do it anymore because I’m just like it’s too easy to get hooked into that fear.

43:13 Yeah. Yeah. And it’s not even mine to begin with. It’s theirs. Yeah. Yeah.

43:19 What has become part of your ongoing healing practice now?

43:26 Um self-reflection has been a really good one. Right.

43:29 Just processing through something and then um recognizing how I feel in my body about it. Um, if I’m struggling to make a decision, that’s one of the easiest

43:37 ways to make a decision, right?

43:39 Um, someone’s like, “Oh, you want to go do this thing?” And I’m like, “I don’t know.” They look at my roster and look at my my calendar. I’m just like, “I’ve got space.” And I’m like, “The

43:48 anxietyy’s crawling.” I’m like, “No, I think I’ve got too much on this week.” Yeah.

43:51 I’m like, or the other thing is I’m allowed to say, “Let me think about it.” Like small little things just allowing to say no to stuff is great.

43:59 Yeah. little things, just lots of little bits and pieces that have helped in the recovery. It’s just so many. I can’t think of them all at once.

44:07 Yeah, it’s a lot, isn’t it? But yeah, I like what you said about um you know, when you need to make a decision, you

44:15 have options around making those decisions and it doesn’t have to be instant. Um but also paying attention to your interior, your feelings around it.

44:28 Yeah, generally your body gives you a really good clue as to where you want to or not. Like mentally I’m like I’m too like too much going on. I don’t know. I don’t

44:35 know. But if I’m feeling anxious about I’m like okay, we need to slow down. So let’s just let’s just ask for space. And then if we go like my I’m I’m giving excuses to the person but I’m not actually saying no.

44:46 Yeah.

44:46 I’m like I call that a soft no. If they start making excuses that sound like no, then it’s probably a no. Yeah.

44:52 I taught my sister that one, too, cuz I was like that’s a great tip. I’m going to tell her cuz this is I wish I learned this earlier. Yeah, that really works.

44:59 You hear it from people, too. Like you hear people talking, they’re like, “I’m not sure. I’ve got things on Thursday.

45:04 Um, I don’t know. I might get time for that.” And you like you can hear they’re not really interested.

45:09 It’s it’s like that whole thing. Unless it’s an enthusiastic yes, then it’s probably a no. Yeah. Yeah. Consent has been a huge huge deal. That’s for sure.

45:17 Right. Learning about consent. That was a that was another big thing that was wow big part in how I did things, right? Yeah.

45:26 Recognizing what it looks like was a big deal, too. It is. Yeah.

45:31 Um, we have a set of questions that we ask everybody at the end of the podcast.

45:38 So, um, I guess we’re kind of moving on to there. If you could speak to yourself on the day you left, what would you say?

45:48 It’s going to be okay. Like, yeah, you’re going to make it through and you’re going to love it.

45:53 This is actually It’s going to be a tough journey. It’s going to be really hard.

45:57 But you’re going to come out the other side and you’re not going to believe how incredible it is and how peaceful your life is, right?

46:04 All that drama, all of that fear that you’re afraid of right now, it’s not going to be there anymore, right?

46:09 And it’s going to be such an amazing feeling. Yeah, that’s a great message of hope.

46:15 It’s the peace is the bit. Oh, I’m such a cool thing to find.

46:19 Isn’t it so awesome? I think it’s like the release of um the

46:27 cult think in your head controlling everything and the fear.

46:32 Yeah. The drama that other people put on me and I thought it was my responsibility like fix it.

46:38 Realizing I didn’t have to have that in my life. I can get rid of that. That was like a Oh man, that creates a whole lot of space and that space is quiet and it’s nice.

46:48 Yeah. Yeah.

46:51 If you had to name one thing that supported you the most, what would that be? Chosen family. Yeah.

46:59 They’ve been amazing. They’ve just love me for me and they celebrate me, right? And that has helped me be me

47:06 faster and better and just grow in sort of personality and character so much.

47:13 All that’s been kept down from when I was a child stuff down there that’s just kind of exploded. Yeah.

47:18 And it’s helped me be like, “Ah, I’m actually okay being me.” Yeah. How did you find your chosen family?

47:24 In all kinds of weird places. I mean, my sister, my husband, I found him on Tinder.

47:29 Ah, fabulous. used the red flags logic, complete logic to find them and then end up being an amazing person.

47:36 Um, and then my friends, uh, my friend Jess, she’s an amazing person. I found her at a florestry course that I did.

47:44 She’s such a kind person, huge heart.

47:47 Uh, and then her friend Ella I met and we became friends. So, it’s like a small little group of people that we just, you know, we sort of collaborate, meet

47:55 up, and we’re always hanging out, wanting to do stuff together. It’s awesome. Oh, that sounds wild. feel so lucky. Yeah.

48:04 What would you like to What would you like people to know about people leaving cults?

48:12 They’re probably terrified, absolutely shattered mentally, physically, emotionally,

48:19 and they don’t know what is up and what’s down.

48:22 It’s like they’ve been put in a washing machine and spit out. Like they just they’re completely bewildered.

48:28 Yeah. So time is a big factor and just encouraging them to make choices for them and supporting them in those choices is huge.

48:37 Yeah.

48:38 Like even if they make choices that are completely like, “Oh gosh, are you going to be okay?” Supporting them through that process is absolutely huge.

48:46 Yeah.

48:47 I if I if I had that, I think I would have done the process a bit faster. Yeah.

48:51 And there’s a lot of things I think would have made a difference, but did it on my own and now I can help others. Oh, that’s wonderful.

48:59 Yeah.

49:00 I guess on behalf of Unspun, um I’d love to say just it’s been awesome to hear your story and

49:09 um about your recovery and where you’ve been heading and Yeah, it’s fabulous to have you here. Thank you.

49:17 Yeah. And I think you know your story is one that can help other people as well.

49:24 Like hearing other people’s journeys such a crucial part of recovery I feel. Yeah.

49:29 And that’s I guess why this podcast is here because recovery stories can make such a difference for people.

49:37 Yeah. Yeah.

49:38 It’s never linear either. It’s always like mine. Back and forth back and forth until you figure out Yeah.

49:44 what’s right for you and Yeah. Exactly. Thank you so much.

49:50 And now we wrap up another episode of Unspun. A huge thank you to Grace. I’m sure your story will inspire and give

49:57 hope to many people. Thank you for spending this time with us. We know these stories can stir a lot and we’re

50:05 grateful you trusted us enough to listen. Unspinning these stories takes courage to speak, to listen, and to

50:12 feel. If anything came up for you today, please take care of yourself. Pause, breathe, and reach out if you need to.

50:20 You’re not alone in this. We honor everyone who shared today and everyone who is quietly doing their hearing

50:27 healing work. Thank Thank you for walking alongside us. Until next time, this is Unspun.